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Sub questions for a new basement HT

post #1 of 67
Thread Starter 
Here is what I have in my basement HT.

Def-Tech BP8060 Super Towers
Def-Tech CS8060 Center
Def-Tech PM1000 Rears
Pioneer SC-1522K Receiver
Room is 20.5 x 17.5 x 8 = 2870cf (schematic attached)
Listening will be 75% Movies/TV and 25% music
Back of HT room has a 10' opening to the rest of the basement
Room is pre-wired for subs at rear.
Budget - $1800 or less

Ok, first let me say that I am a total audio/video newb. This is my first true HT. I have never had a dedicated receiver, speakers, or subs - ever. So I am looking for a bit of an education as well as recommendations. I like my Def-Techs. Each tower has a 300 watt amp with a 10 inch sub and a pair of 10 inch bass radiators. The center speaker has a 150 watt amp and an 8 inch sub. I know these subs are ridiculously small for my room. But I wanted to mention them in case there are concerns with matching up to a dedicated sub or subs.

Ok, I have been reading all of your great posts, and have learned quite a bit, especially from Jim Wilson. And I like what I have read on the most popular subs recommended on this site (Rythmik LV12R, PSA XV15, SVS PB 1000 and Outlaw LFM-1 EX). But I am looking for advice on what to buy for my particular set-up. My concerns are to match up with my listening material, size properly for my room, accounting for the 10' opening to the rest of the basement, and match up with my equipment, including the subs included in my speakers.

I am very easily impressed. I know any of the subs on this forum will blow me away. But I don't want to overspend on subs that produce sounds I will not appreciate. What I want is to "feel" the rumble of movies and be more fully immersed in my music.

If I failed to provide any pertinent information, please ask. Thanks for your input.

HTdimensions.pdf 377k .pdf file
post #2 of 67
Dual HSU VTF-15H is what I'd shoot for in this budget and be merry.
post #3 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Dual HSU VTF-15H is what I'd shoot for in this budget and be merry.

Dual VTF-15's are 1995.00 shipped but I agree if the OP can pony up the extra coin thats a great option. The next best choice would be Dual XV15's @ 1518.10 shipped.
post #4 of 67
Thread Starter 
The dual VTF-15's are $2050 shipped to Ohio. That exceeds my max budget by quite a bit. That is about what I paid for the speakers. You both seem set on dual 15s over a single 15 or dual 12s. Is that just a function of the room size, quality of those manufacturers, or certain listening habits?
post #5 of 67
Duals can help smooth room modes, offer better coverage across multiple seats, and require less or possibly no EQ to flatten the response...a single sub can not smooth any modes and most likely will rely on EQ to flatten the response. Depending on how much EQ is applied, headroom can be lost. If you only have the room for a single sub, then the Rythmik FV15HP would be my choice, with the SVS PC13 Ultra bringing up the rear.
post #6 of 67
Quote:
If you only have the room for a single sub, then the Rythmik FV15HP would be my choice

+1
Quote:
The dual VTF-15's are $2050 shipped to Ohio. That exceeds my max budget by quite a bit.

If that's out of your budget, dual PSA XV-15 will do the job well like basshead suggested. The reasons for going with duals is also explained by him.
Quote:
That is about what I paid for the speakers.

A sub should attract your max budget if your objective is HT mostly. Those speakers you have cannot match the might of comparatively priced quality sub(s).
post #7 of 67
Thread Starter 
I forgot to mention that space is not an issue at all. Thanks.
post #8 of 67
I would go for dual Hsu VTF3s, $1517 shipped. Great combination of sound quality, extension, features, and output. Dual VTF15h subs would be good too, but that would be $1995 shipped not $2040. Remember for SVS and Power Sound Audio, you have to pay sales tax too. For this same reason I am hesitant to suggest a dual Titanic 4 15" sub setup, which would be a boss, but you have to tack on sales tax to that, being in Ohio and all. One more thing I would suggest, wait until Black Friday, you may be able to get three Outlaw LFM-1 EXs within your budget, that ought to tackle all your room modes nicely and give a ton of low distortion output and deep bass. Three EXs = my first choice.
post #9 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would go for dual Hsu VTF3s, $1517 shipped. Great combination of sound quality, extension, features, and output. Dual VTF15h subs would be good too, but that would be $1995 shipped not $2040. Remember for SVS and Power Sound Audio, you have to pay sales tax too. For this same reason I am hesitant to suggest a dual Titanic 4 15" sub setup, which would be a boss, but you have to tack on sales tax to that, being in Ohio and all. One more thing I would suggest, wait until Black Friday, you may be able to get three Outlaw LFM-1 EXs within your budget, that ought to tackle all your room modes nicely and give a ton of low distortion output and deep bass. Three EXs = my first choice.

If he lives in Ohio then most likely he could pick them up so the price would not change much. Oh and here you go "recommending 3 subs when the op does not even know what his room acoustics are like yet" per another thread you just commented in.
post #10 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

If he lives in Ohio then most likely he could pick them up so the price would not change much. Oh and here you go "recommending 3 subs when the op does not even know what his room acoustics are like yet" per another thread you just commented in.

I recommend three Outlaws, not just for room modes, but for the overall performance gain. Look at it this way, you can co-locate them all and get a 9 dB performance gain over a single- where does that leave the competition?
post #11 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I recommend three Outlaws, not just for room modes, but for the overall performance gain. Look at it this way, you can co-locate them all and get a 9 dB performance gain over a single- where does that leave the competition?

In the other thread your reply;

"And for all the advice towards 3, 4 sub setups, the OP doesn't even know his room acoustics yet."

What makes this situation different?

What I see is you like to be the Anti-Christ of this forum and go against the grain of what everyone else recomends and then try to prove thier opinion wrong.

I have a 3 subwoofer system and I am very familiar with the gains of having 3 co-coupled. 3 Outlaws co-coupled would equal 2 XV15's. I dont want to hear your THD and Compression excuses either. Reef already debunked your opinion as he has owned both.
post #12 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

In the other thread your reply;

"And for all the advice towards 3, 4 sub setups, the OP doesn't even know his room acoustics yet."

What makes this situation different?

What I see is you like to be the Anti-Christ of this forum and go against the grain of what everyone else recomends and then try to prove thier opinion wrong.

I have a 3 subwoofer system and I am very familiar with the gains of having 3 co-coupled. 3 Outlaws co-coupled would equal 2 XV15's. I dont want to hear your THD and Compression excuses either. Reef already debunked your opinion as he has owned both.

I don't know why you want to argue this point. I repeat, I recommended three Outlaws, not just for smoothing out the frequency response, but for the sheer performance gain. The other thread to which you are referring is not analogous, because I don't believe three FV15HPs would equal the overall performance of a Submersive HP+. Three Outlaws would destroy two XV15s in every single performance metric, and not just by a little. On a one-to-one basis the XV15 scarcely has any performance advantage over a Outlaw EX, and I don't need anecdotal evidence to back me up there, there is a battery of third party measurements to prove that. Three Outlaws would also top a FV15HP, a PB13 Ultra, or two VTF15hs. The worst case scenario with three Outlaws is you get a 5 dB increase in output and a beautifully flat FR across multiple listening positions.
post #13 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I don't know why you want to argue this point. I repeat, I recommended three Outlaws, not just for smoothing out the frequency response, but for the sheer performance gain. The other thread to which you are referring is not analogous, because I don't believe three FV15HPs would equal the overall performance of a Submersive HP+. Three Outlaws would destroy two XV15s in every single performance metric, and not just by a little. On a one-to-one basis the XV15 scarcely has any performance advantage over a Outlaw EX, and I don't need anecdotal evidence to back me up there, there is a battery of third party measurements to prove that. Three Outlaws would also top a FV15HP, a PB13 Ultra, or two VTF15hs. The worst case scenario with three Outlaws is you get a 5 dB increase in output and a beautifully flat FR across multiple listening positions.

All Lies at best. Three Outlaws aint destroying ****....you should consider taking your meds before logging on.
post #14 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

What makes this situation different?

What I see is you like to be the Anti-Christ of this forum and go against the grain of what everyone else recomends and then try to prove thier opinion wrong.
AGREE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

All Lies at best. Three Outlaws aint destroying ****....you should consider taking your meds before logging on.
BH, just ignore his post and save you a headache.
post #15 of 67
Thread Starter 
Guys, online arguments like this are really disappointing. You are usually very helpful on this board. I have learned a lot from you both, but not so much here today.

Getting back on point, I am not interested in three subwoofers, no matter the final cost. Just two...
post #16 of 67
Sorry fr8doggr, perhaps I could learn to be less argumentative...
The VTF3s just dropped to $1460 a pair, btw, great deal on some killer subs. Parts Express is in Ohio, if they aren't too far away you could make an offer for a couple Titanic 4 15"s and just drive down there and pick them up if they are agreeable to your price. 1 kW amplifiers, 18.7 mm xmax, those will blow your doors off their hinges.
post #17 of 67
Thread Starter 
Thanks Shady,

Parts Express is just an hour away. But I think I am shying away from something like the Dayton's you mentioned. I can't find any published reviews on them. I am new to subs, and I think I would prefer to stick to the more mainstream brands that have well-reviewed products and good customer support to answer my inevitable questions.
post #18 of 67
Please buy these before I do...these are just a crazy deal even before negotiating at 1800. I'm driving through Louisville for tday and I don't want to be tempted.



http://louisville.craigslist.org/ele/4134838701.html
post #19 of 67
I am very surprise that these are still available. Since you will be driving by, what stops you, Dom?
post #20 of 67
Honestly, what I have now is overkill to me...but I always could have more overkill!!!

I shouldn't, but seriously considering. I really just need one, but could easily sell the other if he won't separate. Lol, see where I'm convincing myself already? I said 'need'....
post #21 of 67
I know huh but it is too cheap to pass. You will have 6 stars on your ULF score for sure with these.
post #22 of 67
man i wish i had room for those!!! I want to buy them soooo bad lol.
post #23 of 67
^^ um, instantly bump you up to 4.5 stars with just a pair of these that is at 12.5Hz and for only $1800 or less if you negotiate? No brainier to me if I have a mean to pick them up like you. You can always run these with your XV15's if you have room for 5 stars, if not sell yours and add a third FV15hp. Teasing???
post #24 of 67
2 FV15HP and 3 XV15 would give me a SI of 7.0. 2400 ÷ 7 would give a ULF score of 342 @ 16hz and 632 @ 12hz. cool.gif

Ok I need to log off now smile.gif
post #25 of 67
Log off now to drive to Louisville? Ha ha smile.gif 3 FV15hps would give you at 421 @12.5hz
post #26 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Log off now to drive to Louisville? Ha ha smile.gif 3 FV15hps would give you at 421 @12.5hz

smile.gif
post #27 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by fr8doggr View Post

My concerns are to match up with my listening material, size properly for my room, accounting for the 10' opening to the rest of the basement, and match up with my equipment, including the subs included in my speakers.

Based on your budget, it ain't gonna happen. Your choices are, expect disappointment or increase your budget. Subwoofers are like that.

Based on reading your initial post, in my opinion, the missing pertinent piece would be what your emotional expectations are. My above is not intended to be flip or discouraging but instead, the intent is to, based on your budget, prepare you for disappointment. With the above in mind, by understanding what your expectations are, a realistic plan can be created. That way, intrinsic details can be openly discussed and a valid solution can be found.
post #28 of 67
Thread Starter 
Beeman,

I have appreciated your opinions like this on other threads. I consider them to be frank and honest, even if it may not be what the poster wants to hear. In your opinion, given that my original parameters may be setting myself up for disappointment, what would you recommend? Is it increasing my budget? If so, to what level? Is it to add more subs? If so, how many? I don't know if I can qualify what my emotional expectations are. I know what I like when I hear it. I want to "feel" subterranean sounds when I watch movies, but not distort sound when listening to music. I came on here for advice and an education. I look forward to your direction and suggestions.
post #29 of 67

Um….I wonder how important that 10' opening to the rest of the basement is. Guys, please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like that opening essentially makes the OPs HT a lot larger than 2870cf he has listed, how much larger is hard to say though.

 

Having said that I think the dual XV15s is definitely the way I would go. I will forgo the debate on third party specs and measurements and tell you from first hand experience that the XV15 is a fantastic sub and Tom V at PSA is great to work with. I highly suggest contacting him via email, There's a good chance he gets back to you today even though its Saturday. I contacted him on a Saturday and he wrote back in the early evening, he said they normally try and do that in case people have calibration questions because they don't want people to have to wait until Monday. That shows that PSA cares about their customers, and that says a lot.

 

I would have suggested contact SVS in that they have great CS as well but I feel like dual PB12-NSDs won't be enough and dual PB12+ is past your budget. 

post #30 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

Um….I wonder how important that 10' opening to the rest of the basement is. Guys, please correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like that opening essentially makes the OPs HT a lot larger than 2870cf he has listed,
+1. Cabin gain only occurs below the frequency where the longest room dimension is 1/2 wavelength. If 20.5 feet was the longest dimension that would be below 27Hz, but that opening to the next room in effect means no cabin gain. IMO three subs, if not four, isn't a bad idea at all.
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