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Xbox One and PlayStation 4 Roundup - Page 17

post #481 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Well "entitlement" brought you the no-DRM XB1, right?

I don't think the argument is weighted on the feelings of those that would think it's unfair. Just the point that right or wrong it might make trying to sell new $500 iterative hard pretty hard, and that's the reason why it won't work. There's a reason gamers shell out a lot of cash for buggy systems with no games at launch, and it's mostly due to the console lifecycle. Shorten it and you're not going to get the same build up of demand or hype for the products. You undercut the very reason to release new hardware so fast in the first place as you absolutely need to make nice profit margins on the hardware if you;re revising hardware that quick. You surely won't make it up on software licensing and dev fee's.

I just don't think the market is large enough or broad enough to bare those types of iterative updates. It hasn't in the past, and I don't see whats changed going forward.

I would expect the upgraded version to have a very healthy profit margin, because it doesn't have to compete on price. It can be a premium product and priced accordingly. I don't expect them to abandon or marginalize the original spec in any way, it would still probably sell quite a bit more. It doesn't matter how expensive it is, because it's not designed to appeal to the cost conscious mass market.
Edited by bd2003 - 1/4/14 at 8:56pm
post #482 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I would expect the upgraded version to have a very healthy profit margin, because it doesn't have to compete on price. It can be a premium product and priced accordingly. I don't expect them to abandon or marginalize the original spec in any way, it would still probably sell quite a bit more. It doesn't matter how expensive it is, because it's not designed to appeal to the cost conscious mass market.

They have the 360 to fill that void, why risk making everyone who already bought an Xbox One angry?
post #483 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

They have the 360 to fill that void, why risk making everyone who already bought an Xbox One angry?

Because that anger has no consequence. They already bought the console, they already have a library of Xbox games. If they're angry about "having to buy" another console, what are they gonna do about it? Buy a different console? Obviously not, the whole point is that they don't want to buy another console. Buy less games? No, if anything they'll buy more games for that platform, because one day those games will look even better. And most people simply won't care one way or another. So what does it matter?

No, they'll just whine about it on the Internet until they finally get one, then they'll change their tune and it'll be the best thing ever.
post #484 of 890
A lot of them would pack up everything and trade it all in towards a different console. You don't just slap your most loyal fans in the face like that, especially not after the whole drm disaster.

This would also kill early adoption of new hardware as lots of hardcore fans would just wait for the next model. It is a no win situation.

Just stick with x86 and release a new console that is backwards compatible every 4-5 years. It won't anger anyone and makes everyone happy.
post #485 of 890
It's a funny argument to be sure, but I personally think if Microsoft releases another xbox in 2014 or 2015 they will be shooting themselves in the foot. 500 bucks every 2.1 years does not seem realistic for the mainstream. Offering more expensive consoles designed to be replaced to 2-3 years is a bitter pill, but there will always be fanboys to eat them up.

Technology advancements are not symmetrical, but it is interesting to note the historic release cycles.

Xbox 2001
(4 years later) 360 Nov 2005
(8 years later) One Nov 2013
(2 years later) XBOne mark 2???? Holiday 2015.

PS1 1994
(6 years later) PS2 2000
(6 years later) PS3 2006
(7 years later) PS4 Nov 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Because that anger has no consequence.

Did you see the 180 that happened after similar "anger" on the used games and online connection requirements after E3?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

They already bought the console, they already have a library of Xbox games. If they're angry about "having to buy" another console, what are they gonna do about it? Buy a different console? Obviously not, the whole point is that they don't want to buy another console.

If you already are an owner, you may still be ticked that it is now old hat. However if you are not an owner and they announce the new version is coming what do you do? Wait for the better hardware (but at same or higher cost) or again, be ticked or suspicious on when that version will get replaced. 500 bucks every couple of years plus yearly live fees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Buy less games? No, if anything they'll buy more games for that platform, because one day those games will look even better. And most people simply won't care one way or another. So what does it matter?

Of course if we assume Microsoft will pursue a hardware revision to out do the PS4, we must also assume software will be 100% compatible and scale between both system capabilities? Sheesh. Enough with the hypotheticals! smile.gif I just want to play games and not have a console get outdated by the time developers start really hitting their stride.
post #486 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Because that anger has no consequence.

Word on the street is PS4 pre-orders before the 180 were 9:1. These machines live or die by the hardcore early adopters, and they're a bunch of opinionated CAG's and technophiles.

We've already seen the consequences of starting on the wrong foot. A multibillion dollar corporation completely dropped their launch plans to salvage a blowout. Their paid for partners likewise did a huge walk-back and distances themselves as much as they could.
post #487 of 890
And here I thought AVS did not allow loyalist console debates..?

Guess I was mistaken since that is really the core of this thread and it's unfortunate to see so much bashing from both sides by people that likely consider themselves to be gamers.

Obviously this does not apply to every person posting in this thread but there are some serious loyalists in here and that concept just leaves me confused.gif.

I guess I just feel lucky to live in a time where we have access to such entertainment devices and thankful we have choices.

I did not honestly want either at launch but felt obligated to myself (as a gamer) to buy both.

Now when it comes to debating the merits of a particular game title... I am critical and jaded. wink.gif

Regards,
Jason
post #488 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

A lot of them would pack up everything and trade it all in towards a different console. You don't just slap your most loyal fans in the face like that, especially not after the whole drm disaster.

This would also kill early adoption of new hardware as lots of hardcore fans would just wait for the next model. It is a no win situation.

Just stick with x86 and release a new console that is backwards compatible every 4-5 years. It won't anger anyone and makes everyone happy.

 

Then that person isn't thinking straight. It makes more sense to trade in their current console towards the new model. Moving to another platform they lose all their friends, all their digital games, etc.

 

I know you've got a PS4, so put yourself in that person's shoes. Say that Sony comes out with a PS4.5 next year. You're seriously telling me your reaction to that is "screw that, I'm going xbox!"?

post #489 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post


Word on the street is PS4 pre-orders before the 180 were 9:1. These machines live or die by the hardcore early adopters, and they're a bunch of opinionated CAG's and technophiles.

We've already seen the consequences of starting on the wrong foot. A multibillion dollar corporation completely dropped their launch plans to salvage a blowout. Their paid for partners likewise did a huge walk-back and distances themselves as much as they could.

 

Those people haven't already bought into the platform. It's an entirely different situation. And really, we're not talking about anger here, we're talking about jealousy. The DRM debacle was about something people despised the very idea of. This is something everyone can lust after, even if they can't afford it. Early adopters tend to have cash to burn, and this is exactly the kind of thing they'd spring for.

post #490 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Then that person isn't thinking straight. It makes more sense to trade in their current console towards the new model. Moving to another platform they lose all their friends, all their digital games, etc.

I know you've got a PS4, so put yourself in that person's shoes. Say that Sony comes out with a PS4.5 next year. You're seriously telling me your reaction to that is "screw that, I'm going xbox!"?

Nope, I would stick with Nintendo, it isn't the first time I packed everything up because of choice made by a console maker, and I know several people who have done the same.

The early adopters may have the most cash to burn, but they are also the most loyal, you lose them and you lose the brand. They are the people that you don't want to tick off.
post #491 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Well "entitlement" brought you the no-DRM XB1, right?

I don't think the argument is weighted on the feelings of those that would think it's unfair. Just the point that right or wrong it might make trying to sell new $500 iterative hard pretty hard, and that's the reason why it won't work. There's a reason gamers shell out a lot of cash for buggy systems with no games at launch, and it's mostly due to the console lifecycle. Shorten it and you're not going to get the same build up of demand or hype for the products. You undercut the very reason to release new hardware so fast in the first place as you absolutely need to make nice profit margins on the hardware if you;re revising hardware that quick. You surely won't make it up on software licensing and dev fee's.

I just don't think the market is large enough or broad enough to bare those types of iterative updates. It hasn't in the past, and I don't see whats changed going forward.

Exactly. How are these people not getting this? Consoles have always been a fixed closed boxed environment that lasts years. People spend hundreds of dollars with the promise of better and more games to come in the future. No need to worry about new systems you have to buy to get the best experience. The thinking that MS will come in and disrupt this makes zero sense.

You guys can argue this all you want, the current console market design is not going to change. Get it out of your imaginations.
post #492 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Then that person isn't thinking straight. It makes more sense to trade in their current console towards the new model. Moving to another platform they lose all their friends, all their digital games, etc.

I know you've got a PS4, so put yourself in that person's shoes. Say that Sony comes out with a PS4.5 next year. You're seriously telling me your reaction to that is "screw that, I'm going xbox!"?

If sony came out with a ps4.5 next year, they would be shooting themselves in the foot. I don't recall this ever happening with any console, where they upgrade specs over the life. Sure upgrade to smaller chips to emit less heat etc, yea no problem with those type of revision, but actual specs? That would be an issue.

Another point is this generation of console really blurs the line more between PC and consoles. If they start doing upgrades, it will get harder to justify consoles over PC.
post #493 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post


Nope, I would stick with Nintendo, it isn't the first time I packed everything up because of choice made by a console maker, and I know several people who have done the same.

The early adopters may have the most cash to burn, but they are also the most loyal, you lose them and you lose the brand. They are the people that you don't want to tick off.

 

I don't believe you. :)

 

I think it's easy to say that, but when the choice is in front of you it'll be a different story. 

post #494 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Nope, I would stick with Nintendo, it isn't the first time I packed everything up because of choice made by a console maker, and I know several people who have done the same.

The early adopters may have the most cash to burn, but they are also the most loyal, you lose them and you lose the brand. They are the people that you don't want to tick off.

I just bought a wii u, my first nintendo console since n64. I love it!

I think nintendo is more appealing than ever, because with ps4/x1 becoming more and more like PC and most games are on all 3 platforms with the exception of some exclusives, I feel nintendo offers a truly unique experience.

I mean if you can get past the "kiddy" games and try games such as mario 3d world, man is it just pure fun or what!
post #495 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Nope, I would stick with Nintendo, it isn't the first time I packed everything up because of choice made by a console maker, and I know several people who have done the same.

The early adopters may have the most cash to burn, but they are also the most loyal, you lose them and you lose the brand. They are the people that you don't want to tick off.

I'm buying a PS4 this year and if i were to hear about a new more powerful PS4 being released a year or 2 later i would feel like i wasted my money on the console. I would be hesitant to buy anything from Sony ever again. Why are you forcing me to upgrade to get a better version of the console and games i just bought? How do i know they won't do this again in another 2 years? What's the point of buying a console if it's always going to be updated with a new model with more power during its 7 year cycle?

If i'm asking these questions you can imagine what the mass market will think about this.


I like to think Sony and MS are not that dumb.
post #496 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I'm buying a PS4 this year and if i were to hear about a new more powerful PS4 being released a year or 2 later i would feel like i wasted my money on the console. I would be hesitant to buy anything from Sony ever again. Why are you forcing me to upgrade to get a better version of the console and games i just bought? How do i know they won't do this again in another 2 years? What's the point of buying a console if it's always going to be updated with a new model with more power during its 7 year cycle?

If i'm asking these questions you can imagine what the mass market will think about this.


I like to think Sony and MS are not that dumb.

yup, and if that did happen, why bother with consoles at all? Might as well go PC, which blows both of them out of the water.

Most games are on all 3 platforms anyways now.
post #497 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by ag.jase View Post


yup, and if that did happen, why bother with consoles at all? Might as well go PC, which blows both of them out of the water.

Most games are on all 3 platforms anyways now.

 

Well, there's the real answer to your question. At least the 360/PS3 were ahead of the curve before they were released, and their price/performance couldn't be matched by PC for years. 

 

But the X1 is already behind the curve:  http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/25/5146398/ibuypower-steam-machine-499-radeon-r9-270

 

In a few years time, once SteamOS has matured and the hardware has come into it's own, people are really going to start questioning why they're paying so much for a console and sub when it's better, cheaper and just as easy to use a steam machine. I don't think you can overstate how disruptive this is going to be for the traditional console cycle. 

post #498 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Well, there's the real answer to your question. At least the 360/PS3 were ahead of the curve before they were released, and their price/performance couldn't be matched by PC for years. 

But the X1 is already behind the curve:  http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/25/5146398/ibuypower-steam-machine-499-radeon-r9-270

In a few years time, once SteamOS has matured and the hardware has come into it's own, people are really going to start questioning why they're paying so much for a console and sub when it's better, cheaper and just as easy to use a steam machine. I don't think you can overstate how disruptive this is going to be for the traditional console cycle. 

i know they are both behind this time. But i don't see them releasing revisions, they will probably release the next gen of consoles earlier, maybe say 5 years. This gen went on quite long.
post #499 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I don't believe you. smile.gif

I think it's easy to say that, but when the choice is in front of you it'll be a different story. 

It wouldn't be the first time I wholesale dumped a brand. It wouldn't even be the second if we add in non gaming stuff.
post #500 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Well, there's the real answer to your question. At least the 360/PS3 were ahead of the curve before they were released, and their price/performance couldn't be matched by PC for years. 

But the X1 is already behind the curve:  http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/25/5146398/ibuypower-steam-machine-499-radeon-r9-270

If this is the consoles better than PC thing I don't think that been the case since 2000 and the PS2 release. Even then it's debatable there. High end has always outperformed newly released consoles.

Also, Price/performance wise you can't match the XB1/PS4 yet either, and it will be the case going forward for a few years. On some under-optimized 3rd party titles you might, but you're going to have a hard time building a < $500 PC that runs games at the performance exclusives/1st party will be putting out. Some 3rd partys in the next 24 months will as well. Eventually mid-range PC's will overtake it though, like in all past generations.
post #501 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

And here I thought AVS did not allow loyalist console debates..?

Guess I was mistaken since that is really the core of this thread and it's unfortunate to see so much bashing from both sides by people that likely consider themselves to be gamers.

Obviously this does not apply to every person posting in this thread but there are some serious loyalists in here and that concept just leaves me confused.gif.
I actually think that this thread is doing OK. While there are a few hard core loyalists spouting crap, in general this is a fairly balanced conversation with quite a few people who have both consoles.

In reference to a hardware upgrade mid-cycle for the X1 I think there surely will be a refresh but it will more than likely upgrade things like connectivity, hard drive sizes, reliability, etc. I don't think there is any chance it will include a material change in architecture or processing power. There are a few reasons for this.
  • It would be entirely unprecedented in the history of consoles.
  • It would force developers of XBOX One titles to QA on two platforms.
  • As other have pointed out, Microsoft would would risk alienating their hard core user base.
  • While the users of this site and a good portion of the hard core gamers care greatly about the difference in graphics capabilities I am not sure that the broader public at large will care that much. Let's face it, many people can't even tell the difference between a crappy 720p internet feed and a BD.

In addition to all this, it is because Microsoft planned for this to happen. It is clear that they are buying into the vision that the dedicated gaming console is dying and made a conscious decision to start to broaden that market by making something that was more than a gaming console. They sacrificed a little bit of graphics processing power to make that happen. Time will tell whether this will be a success or a failure.

I will be honest, while what they are doing is interesting, I don't think it will be a long-term success. This is because I believe that within a couple of years there will be other devices that provide this same functionality that are not gaming consoles at a far lower cost. Ideally, I think that TV's should be providing a lot of what Microsoft is trying to do here with small easy to use media players providing the rest.
post #502 of 890
I don't see any hardcore loyalists spouting crap, just a lot of hypothetical speculation on what is possible with virtualization. I don't have an Xbox One nor do I want one.
post #503 of 890
Xbox Day One edition owner here. Had it preordered since midyear 2013.

I was interested in the best (most powerful) GAMING console.

The media features mentioned were never of any interest to me. My Kinect has never even been connected.

My FEELING now is that Microsoft is much more interested in offering some odd hybrid device, not the best console.

If I can verify that the new Steam Machines will be getting Xbox "exclusives" such as TitanFall, I'll be selling my One and jumping on that bandwagon.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoy my One and will be playing it into the wee hours of the morning today, as usual. But, given my take on where Microsoft is headed, I'd much rather back a console that is at least trying to offer the best gaming experience, not a console/media hybrid that seems to be happily embracing second place in terms of gaming power and performance.
post #504 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpmp0 View Post

Xbox Day One edition owner here. Had it preordered since midyear 2013.

I was interested in the best (most powerful) GAMING console.

The media features mentioned were never of any interest to me. My Kinect has never even been connected.

My FEELING now is that Microsoft is much more interested in offering some odd hybrid device, not the best console.

If I can verify that the new Steam Machines will be getting Xbox "exclusives" such as TitanFall, I'll be selling my One and jumping on that bandwagon.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoy my One and will be playing it into the wee hours of the morning today, as usual. But, given my take on where Microsoft is headed, I'd much rather back a console that is at least trying to offer the best gaming experience, not a console/media hybrid that seems to be happily embracing second place in terms of gaming power and performance.

 

Steam machines are just PCs, so you can install/dual boot windows on it and play titanfall. But that's because it isn't an xbox exclusive...there's no way to play ryse or any true exclusives on a PC.  

post #505 of 890
Build a PC then, Titanfall is coming to PC the same day as Xbox One and will have no online paywall either. You will need Origin of course, since it is EA. No word on if EA will support Steam OS, but their interest in Linux seems to suggest that they would if it takes off.
post #506 of 890
Yes, there were some articles stating that Titanfall would be an Xbox CONSOLE exclusive.

So is calling a Steam Machine a "console" legitimate?

I see a little confusion coming into play here...at least in my little brain.
post #507 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalto View Post


I actually think that this thread is doing OK. While there are a few hard core loyalists spouting crap, in general this is a fairly balanced conversation with quite a few people who have both consoles.

In reference to a hardware upgrade mid-cycle for the X1 I think there surely will be a refresh but it will more than likely upgrade things like connectivity, hard drive sizes, reliability, etc. I don't think there is any chance it will include a material change in architecture or processing power. There are a few reasons for this.
  • It would be entirely unprecedented in the history of consoles.
  • It would force developers of XBOX One titles to QA on two platforms.
  • As other have pointed out, Microsoft would would risk alienating their hard core user base.
  • While the users of this site and a good portion of the hard core gamers care greatly about the difference in graphics capabilities I am not sure that the broader public at large will care that much. Let's face it, many people can't even tell the difference between a crappy 720p internet feed and a BD.

In addition to all this, it is because Microsoft planned for this to happen. It is clear that they are buying into the vision that the dedicated gaming console is dying and made a conscious decision to start to broaden that market by making something that was more than a gaming console. They sacrificed a little bit of graphics processing power to make that happen. Time will tell whether this will be a success or a failure.

I will be honest, while what they are doing is interesting, I don't think it will be a long-term success. This is because I believe that within a couple of years there will be other devices that provide this same functionality that are not gaming consoles at a far lower cost. Ideally, I think that TV's should be providing a lot of what Microsoft is trying to do here with small easy to use media players providing the rest.

 

On it's own I don't see the current xbox one having long term success. Or even the PS4 really. At least not success to the extent that previous generations have set. It's not that I think console gaming is dying, just that its going to change so radically from the one console per TV model that it'll be practically unrecognizable. All three of the big contenders (MS, Sony, Valve) are taking slightly different paths to the same goal - an ecosystem of devices and services that allow you to access your games where you want, how you want. The consoles themselves are kind of the least interesting part of it.

 

Sony's got the main gaming box (PS4), portable (Vita) and the inexpensive streamer/extender (Vita TV). The gaikai tech brings it all together and lets you stream games from the PS4, and eventually earlier consoles as well. They're pretty close to realizing the vision. Will they ever need to release new hardware? Maybe...depends how good their streaming tech is.   

 

Valve's got their big picture mode which finally made PC gaming on a TV realistic. Then they've got steamboxes coming of all shapes and sizes. Big console-like ones that have all the hardware inside and cheap inexpensive boxes that are little more than game/media streamers. You can use the steam controller, xbox controller, dual shock, mouse/kb, even an oculus rift...whatever you want. Sounds like their endgame is to have one device with all the hardware inside be your game "server", and brought to every screen in your house via streaming boxes.

 

MS seems the furthest behind at the moment, but they can catch up in a flash. They've got the one size fits all xbox one...and that's it. But they can reshape windows 9 to be a great gaming device that can play your xbox games, and since its founded on windows, they can get the xbox one to play PC games. They can release an xbox mini that runs the exact same apps as an x1, it just requires an xbox one or windows PC to stream games to it.

 

It's gonna be an interesting few years for sure.     

post #508 of 890
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpmp0 View Post

Yes, there were some articles stating that Titanfall would be an Xbox CONSOLE exclusive.

So is calling a Steam Machine a "console" legitimate?

I see a little confusion coming into play here...at least in my little brain.

 

Get used to it lol.

 

If you can go to a store, buy a steam box, plug it in and play games without ever touching a keyboard/mouse, I think it's fair to consider it a console. 

post #509 of 890
Ha-ha!

Yeah, no worries here. I'll get used to it. As long as I can play what I want--and have a valid credit card--I'll be happy!
post #510 of 890
I see two ways that MS could realistically pull off a mid-cycle refresh that improved performance.

pull a page from Nintendo(n64 expansion pak) and offer something that plugs into the old consoles to boost performance(a usb gpu, or ram, or whatever is needed)
or
release a prestigious console not for the masses. if they released a xbox one 'elite' that was completely decked out(maybe even add more hdmi inputs and that junk too) and sell it for like 800bux.

first option, everybody is happy because you get better performance and NOBODY is left behind or feels like they wasted money.
second option, most ppl are happy because the ppl not wanting to rebuy a console probably never would have bought the 'elite' version anyway. and resale value shouldn't be affected too much since the price of new 'normal' consoles wouldn't be affected.

to say it's not possible, or that it CAN'T happen is just silly. there's nothing but politics in the way, and politics change all the time.

the simple fact is, games consoles HAVE seen mid-cycle changes before, and its more a question of 'how big will the change be' than it is 'will there be a change'. I'm certain they will make changes, I don't know if it will be significant enough to change the xbone vs ps4 debate though.
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