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"Why would anyone want to bother building a kit that costs $300 without any paint when he can add... - Page 5

post #121 of 280
Because it is obvious when I say you can not pick a winner for the time invested and I did not. The theater 10's did sound great but I have heard the SEOS sound great in my room.
post #122 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Because it is obvious when I say you can not pick a winner for the time invested and I did not. The theater 10's did sound great but I have heard the SEOS sound great in my room.

It's not obvious at all.

Again, this is what you said about the KC GTG which you didn't attend:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater 
I know Archaea still says that the were too bright even though he did not hear the proper setup of them. I would not even give an opinion without proper setup and EQ. That is like putting a 1 watt amp into the Noesis and turning it up to 5 dBs over reference and saying I think they are harsh. If I did this you guys would be down my throat and guess what, I would deserve it. So when I question things it is deserving. Of course everyone won't agree on things but saying unlistenable and such tells me something was way off and they were. I am glad because they are now my go to speakers and not by a little.

You told them the DRs were not properly set up. In fact, if you were there you wouldn't even have given an opinion. You questioned this because it was deserving. Comments from people there told you something was way off.

Had you attended that GTG, am I to believe you would have done anything other than use your write-up to explain in detail how the DRs were not set up properly, you can't give an opinion on them, and none of the results tallied from this thing should even be considered? Of course not- you did that even having not attended.

Yet at this Chase GTG that you did attend, you had no problem giving an opinion, you didn't question the results, and you didn't say anything was way off.

So which is it?
post #123 of 280
You are sitting on your soap box down talking to others and looking up old threads just to argue. The difference is the KC. GTG had evidence of why some speakers were too loud to listen to and this one was just is saying one is louder than the other. I still don't understand why you do this. The conclusions are the same, I won't use either to gauge which is better. I save that for myself in my room to decide. If I hear the Noesis in my room and they don do it for me then so be it. I bet they are great.
post #124 of 280
Your are wrong, I said the spl was off and I have no proof to back that up.
post #125 of 280
Thanks, tux.

I was just thinking about freq resp when I asked, but of course as you say, there so many more things that comprise a comprehensive set of measurements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I like this question Noah.

If it measures good and sounds bad, you've measured the wrong thing.

The reality, you gotta have good objective data, and it has to sound good. The difficult part is interpreting the data as to why something sounds a particular way. Cone break up is a great example. It hides itself very well in a cross over frequency response. But it can sound terrible.

I tend to measure the drivers. Consider the data and the basic design of the driver. Try and implement it and develop a xo. Listen. At this point I know if I've made a big mistake. Ya know, like trying to cross over to low and hearing the tweeter strain. So you take a HD measurement and sure enough there's distortion in the low end of the tweeter pass band.

The objective data is the guide. But it's also the rule. If a speaker has a lumpy response, its better smoothed out. Objectively. Problem is, smoothing it out might cause another problem.

I'm not sure that's a very good reply to your question. It's a really big question. Let me know and ill try and explain better if that doesn't make much sense. I will say though, if I had all the objective data on a speaker, I'm pretty sure I could 95% certainty tell you what it'll sound like. But I'd need polars, on axis response. In room response. Harmonic distortion. Bass response. CSD. Individual driver responses. Box resonance measurements. Etc. Quite a lot of data. Quite a different battle than subs. One is harder than the other. Just different.
post #126 of 280
nfraso:
Quote:
Without even hearing the Theater-10, people though the Fusion-10 sounded bad- in fact immediately sounding obviously "off" from what they had heard from those same scenes in the past. So much so that one guy told Craig he should recuse himself from the test because he thought road noise took a toll on his ears on the drive over.

sbdman:
Quote:
After speaker A had been reviewed, I struggled to reason why I thought it didn't sound as good as when I had listened to these scenes in the past? We went downstairs to let Craig hook up and run Audyssey on speaker B. Should I tell Craig I thought that maybe that back rear seat didn't have a good response? Maybe my 6 hour drive took a toll on my ears, and ruined the actual response of A?

We turned in our decisions and I even told Craig I thought I needed to recuse myself from the test that the first speaker must have been flat without an image because of my 6 hours of road noise, and mountainous ear popping - I was convinced that A was the Theater-10, and I couldn't give it a fair evaluation. I was stunned when Craig said B was the Theater-10.


How do you get that the Fusion-10 sounded bad to me, this review was done a day after the GTG and my thought was it didn't sound as good as the Theater 10. One had to sound better than the other or equal. I listened to all the tracks previously in my home theater, front and center. Different smaller room, different speakers/subs amps acoustic treatments, so yes. I thought my environment sounded better than the Fusion in Craig's large room. Go figure?

And in Craig's main HT, the Theater 10 sounded better to me. Yes, it may have been the long drive, a biased difference in the perfect response of the Fusion, me being an old fart. Maybe Craig has been taken over by aliens and hypnotized me. And as to your title, I for one don't have the equipment, time, or ability to make a flat pack visually presentable for waf. But IN NO WAY is it bad.

So, yes I don't belong in your thread, but you've dragged my misrepresented views here. We used to pm each other as friends when you were LilGator on CHT. You got banned on AVS under that name. Then you continued trashing Craig as BiGBADDABOOM, and banned again. Now you're continuing your attacks as nfraso. It would be great if the hatred of your posts Craig was also not banned so he could respond to your allegations, but I can see the mind numbing endless attacks are an invitation to insanity. I think the guy is stand up, straight forward and trustworthy, no reason he's shown me to think differently.

I never meant my review to disparage anything from the DIY crowd, I think they have made a huge contribution to bang for the buck quality for those with admirable abilities. And the choices of the SEOS offerings alone are hugely intriguing, and I'd love to hear tnem myself. I think some would even like to hear the Theater 10, it may end up not being a "bad" speaker to them?

I will now bow out and let you attack me at will. Guess as always, that means YOU WIN!
post #127 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You are sitting on your soap box down talking to others and looking up old threads just to argue. The difference is the KC. GTG had evidence of why some speakers were too loud to listen to and this one was just is saying one is louder than the other. I still don't understand why you do this. The conclusions are the same, I won't use either to gauge which is better. I save that for myself in my room to decide. If I hear the Noesis in my room and they don do it for me then so be it. I bet they are great.

Because you're inconsistent as soon as it involves Chase. That's why I bring up the KC GTG (well, you did really).

You now say you won't use either GTG to gauge which is better. But you think other people should? Why is that?

Why is it that you harp on me for starting a thread about this when I was told to create one because you wanted me to drop it in your thread? You kept begging us to move on and didn't like the fact that it was bringing attention.

What's the big secret here? Why couldn't you disclose the fact that Craig singled out the Fusion-10s wanting to find out which one was better, and covered the cost of the Fusion-10s for you to build and bring to this GTG? I gave you right up until actually showing up at the GTG and participating in it to let everyone in on the background, and you didn't.

Why is it that you attend this GTG and when you find out Chase will be performing placement, setup and calibration of the speakers you don't say... uh, no one's going to think this is legit? This is a good opportunity, so let's do this right. Let's get at least some basic responses recorded to make sure we're pretty close and everything's set up properly. As you said, he had Omnimic just sitting there. Or maybe once it got going, the Theater-10 was played louder and that's going to throw this whole thing, we need to start over and figure out what's wrong here.

You're not an idiot, you knew all of those things would come into question if this were ever discussed honestly. Is that why you were so hesitant to want to talk about it? Beforehand knowing Craig was incapable of running an impartial proper blind shootout, and then afterwards finding that fact confirmed?
post #128 of 280
OMG, another screwed up thread involving CC. That's a shocker!
I thought we were free from the insanity. eek.gif

Well, Happy Thanksgiving anyway!smile.gif
post #129 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbdman View Post

How do you get that the Fusion-10 sounded bad to me

Two reasons,

1) You thought that it was your seat that didn't have a good response
2) You though that the trip took a toll on your ears and "ruined the actual response"

But when you heard the Theater-10 next, all is well. Your seat's response was fine. The trip's toll on your ears vanished. In fact, you were upset that you didn't give the Theater-10's a good chance and you grasped at excuses possibly explaining the poor showing up until finding out they weren't the Theater-10's. At which point the excuses were no longer needed and everything turned out great! tongue.gif
post #130 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

OMG, another screwed up thread involving CC. That's a shocker!
I thought we were free from the insanity. eek.gif

Well, Happy Thanksgiving anyway!smile.gif

No sir, this of course is the first time CC has ever been involved in anything shady or questionable. Stop being such a hater, re-writing history.

Happy Thanksgiving. biggrin.gif
post #131 of 280
Nfraso you are the only one bringing the stuff here. I told everyone it was better because it was louder that does not mean I can control what they say. The KC meet was done and I entered that thread with my opinions. The Chase thread was over there and you brought it here for some reason. Not the same thing at all. Telling people a speaker is unlistenable and harsh is not the same as telling people they liked it but liked something better is different as well. When Desertdome was trying those speakers he asked for my advise on setting them up(dr's) and I warned him how hard they are to get right. In matter of fact, Since I changed my front stage my response sucks and I am still trying to get the right. Without the DCX it is very difficult. I was involved a little from the get go. So when they are not setup right and sound horrible and people still link to it and such I call that out. If people link to this GTG and say the blind showed the differences I will say no, it was louder.
post #132 of 280
post #133 of 280
Wait, you forgot some other DIY that are the sexiest ever with 888's and the best audio stands ever!

post #134 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Nfraso you are the only one bringing the stuff here. I told everyone it was better because it was louder that does not mean I can control what they say. The KC meet was done and I entered that thread with my opinions. The Chase thread was over there and you brought it here for some reason. Not the same thing at all. Telling people a speaker is unlistenable and harsh is not the same as telling people they liked it but liked something better is different as well. When Desertdome was trying those speakers he asked for my advise on setting them up(dr's) and I warned him how hard they are to get right. In matter of fact, Since I changed my front stage my response sucks and I am still trying to get the right. Without the DCX it is very difficult. I was involved a little from the get go. So when they are not setup right and sound horrible and people still link to it and such I call that out. If people link to this GTG and say the blind showed the differences I will say no, it was louder.

He brought it here because CC insulted this forum and its member's efforts.

I think it's fun. You know, the whole proving him wrong thing. DIY rules. Doubters fools.
post #135 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Wait, you forgot some other DIY that are the sexiest ever with 888's and the best audio stands ever!


They were, until you went sealed. biggrin.gif
post #136 of 280
I do agree that DIY rules, my whole room is full of it. He did not bring it here from insults but that is a good excuse. Keep on. They are not insults and people are very sensitive these days. My wife is trying to convince me to keep my SEOS and ditch the W10's as surrounds. I told her I needed to timbre match so that would mean more SEOS up front but the big boys. She did not like the idea of more builds after the baffle IB wall.
post #137 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Nfraso you are the only one bringing the stuff here.

Why is that? What's the big secret? Why do you think no one here deserves to know (including Tux and Erich)?

Why does Craig get a free pass on conducting this stunt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The Chase thread was over there and you brought it here for some reason.

I wonder if that has to do with Craig editing and deleting other people's posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

If people link to this GTG and say the blind showed the differences I will say no, it was louder.

So you finally admit this blind "showdown" was worthless and the results are at best, very questionable. I'm glad we've at least finally gotten here, whew.
post #138 of 280
I already said the blind test was null and void and the non eq'd test was too short although Craig offered more time but I was not familiar with that movie at all. Let's not focus on the negative, let's focus on those awesome DIY subs posted, especially those huge sonos with that awesome dirt pin stripe! Wow, I am a lazy DIYer! You know what though, those worked awesome!

This one is for Bosso:
This time around Craig had dual VS 18.1's for the LFE and it was nice and I know audio memory is crap BUT I thought the last time with dual CS 18.2's was a better bass experience. Now having said that there was different placement going on too. The new VS 18.1 look much better than before and has a much shorter enclosure which is nice. Still much larger than the Cap 1000's I had but also $400 cheaper.
post #139 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I already said the blind test was null and void

You said the blind test was "null and void" in your write-up? You let everyone know that in the thread on Chase's forum?
post #140 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

You said the blind test was "null and void" in your write-up? You let everyone know that in the thread on Chase's forum?

I said it somewhere.
post #141 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Again, the entire GTG ***

One problem with the DIY section of the AVS forum is that too many people are afraid to call things by their right names.

So a cheap sales trick is called a "GTG," a counterfeit amp is called a "clone," etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

*** Jon Lane says you should be thanking Craig for his service:
Quote:
Let me add a note to thank Craig for these GTGs. Obviously we talk about them and I'm probably one of only a handful who know just what goes into them. Each one runs Craig four figures in expense and time, at the least.

They're a great effort and a valuable service***

Service? When the $1200 vacuum salesman comes up to your house and wants to spill coffee grinds or whatever on your floor, do you thank him for his "service?"

Moreover, we have to remember who we're talking about: someone who hates the social contract governing civilized society so much that after the last election he threatened to close down this business. (Yeah, we later learned there that the reactionary blather was a smoke-screen for some potential tax fraud issue. That strikes me as about as par for the course as the fire-breathing homophobe looking for a rentboy while away at some right-wing pow-wow.)

So perhaps the single most pertinent thing about such a sales-meeting-mislabeled-a-simple-"GTG" is that it's tax-deductible business expense.
Edited by DS-21 - 11/27/13 at 3:26pm
post #142 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I said it somewhere.

No worries, I'm sure it's not a big deal. Or, you know... the right thing to do.
post #143 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

One problem with the DIY section of the AVS forum is that too many people are afraid to call things by their right names.

So a cheap sales trick is called a "GTG," a counterfeit amp is called a "clone," etc.

I could see calling a clone a counterfeit if they were selling them as actual lab gruppens. They are not. They just copied the design, hence clone. And while a ripoff, I do not believe lab gruppen has any patents on the amplification or power supply technology. However, they do have one for the case style.

Anyway, I digress. Chase is a nutter and I wouldn't trust anything he was involved in.
post #144 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post


Anyway, I digress. Chase is a nutter and I wouldn't trust anything he was involved in.

SOLD!!!...to the man with the subwoofage many here crave.....and a terrific relay DIY thread.

JSS
post #145 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Nfraso you are the only one bringing the stuff here. I told everyone it was better because it was louder that does not mean I can control what they say. The KC meet was done and I entered that thread with my opinions. The Chase thread was over there and you brought it here for some reason. Not the same thing at all. Telling people a speaker is unlistenable and harsh is not the same as telling people they liked it but liked something better is different as well. When Desertdome was trying those speakers he asked for my advise on setting them up(dr's) and I warned him how hard they are to get right. In matter of fact, Since I changed my front stage my response sucks and I am still trying to get the right. Without the DCX it is very difficult. I was involved a little from the get go. So when they are not setup right and sound horrible and people still link to it and such I call that out. If people link to this GTG and say the blind showed the differences I will say no, it was louder.

I think nfraso is just saying what everyone else is thinking...

I also think its pretty ****** that Tux's speaker gets a bad wrap from a bs GTG where the only person with anything to gain from this is the only one running the show and no one there has any balls to question anything.
post #146 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

They are not insults and people are very sensitive these days.

So, you agree to being one of those guys, a most vocal minority who will build a speaker, turn it on, post 2 sweeps with Omni mic and declare TOTAL superiority while pretending the only cost for building speakers/subwoofers is the raw parts and being one who loves to trash commercially built products by using poor science at best to prove your point?

Or, do you think he just means someone else, like Tux, or Erich, so it's OK by you and those guys should just guard against being overly sensitive?

And you don't consider those accusations to be insulting?

Feel free to speak for yourself, but to include the entire community, especially guys who were singled out by your buddy, is not gonna get you elected Mayor.

Being overly sensitive vs being outraged after being falsely accused of ineptitude, delusional activities, spending money you're unaware of spending, blacking out for 6 weeks while you build something and document everything in this forum and awaken with no memory of it all, posting 2 sweeps when you could swear the number is really 2,002 sweeps, using poor science when you were positive you followed the guidelines of the top people in the field for a decade and doing all of that so you could trash commercially made products like the CS 18, are completely different things.
post #147 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

One problem with the DIY section of the AVS forum is that too many people are afraid to call things by their right names.

So a cheap sales trick is called a "GTG," a counterfeit amp is called a "clone," etc.

I could see calling a clone a counterfeit if they were selling them as actual lab gruppens. They are not. They just copied the design, hence clone. And while a ripoff, I do not believe lab gruppen has any patents on the amplification or power supply technology. However, they do have one for the case style.

Anyway, I digress. Chase is a nutter and I wouldn't trust anything he was involved in.

And the look, and the model numbers, etc.

They're counterfeit, pirate parts. No sugarcoating will change that simple fact. It's no less shameful than Chase's sales shindig that people here push that counterfeit product.
Edited by DS-21 - 11/27/13 at 5:56pm
post #148 of 280
Take one look at the test conditions, given no other information and one thing is apparently clear to anyone with a semi scientific mind, someone is seriously trolling. Caveat emptor!
post #149 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

And the look, and the model numbers, etc.

They're counterfeit, pirate parts that anyone should be ashamed to be associated with.

Guess we should all just buy ep4000s rite?
post #150 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Guess we should all just buy ep4000s rite?

Or spend 2-8 grand per amp on powersoft or (insert brand here) rolleyes.gif
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