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"Why would anyone want to bother building a kit that costs $300 without any paint when he can add... - Page 7

post #181 of 280
You are right.

We should not discuss heinous claims or those that make them.
post #182 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

But Craig emailed me after all this, likely to neutralize things, and stated to me Erich was making money and should act like an industry professional. [/B]


This bothers me a bit because he must not have followed what's going on with the site. As for profit, let's talk about this in a couple parts. The site might look like there's a lot of stuff and that the person must be paying himself. But I get it all from Parts Express as needed, so it's not like I'm stocking thousands of woofers.

I've gone over this many times, but will do it again. I add up all costs for the kit including Paypal fees, packaging material, custom boxes, QC, etc. I weigh the kit and try to calculate an average price to cover the FREE shipping.....these aren't light speakers. Parts Express gives me discounts on the components. Some kit parts are discounted more than others. I add up the discounts for a certain kit and use that discount to help cover the free shipping. If there is money left over, it goes to pay the designer fee, or I will add in extra to cover that. I'm sure Craig has a wholesale account and can easily.....easily add things up to see that the kits are priced at break even costs after the free shipping is covered and designer fees.

For example: Let's look at the Fusion-12. The wholesale versus retail price difference from is around $67. After I subtract free shipping and designer fees, guess what.....there was still $15 left over! Did I keep that? No, I actually listed the kit at $15 LESS than retail!

The wholesale versus retail price on the parts for the Fusion-10 is a difference of $37 when I last calculated it. That is used to cover the costs I just listed as well.

Some kits are so close that I might be losing money. And I would if there was any shipping damage (that's why I package things really good). I took down the Classix kit because of that, and the 15" Sentinel, and a couple others temporarily. I also had to change how the Amiga kit was offered because I did actually lose money on that one. My fault because I calculated wrong. I will need to recalculate those before the new price goes up. When MTG90 was here I added up the price on the Fusion-15 and I do believe I lost money on that one due to it's high shipping cost and expensive packaging material. That's one reason why it's temporarily removed. I need to recalculate it.


Profit for other items:

Anyone that followed along with the SEOS thread knows how much all of that cost. I even posted estimates and gave prices for prototyping and things like that as the project went. The current price covers the mold making and the first 1000 that were ordered (still not sure it covered everything). If and when every one of those first 1000 are completely gone.......I break even. The next batch won't need to cover the injection mold price and would be cheaper. At that point I could make money on them, or drop the price. Who knows until that first 1000 are gone and I order more. But until those first are sold, no money has been made. If I made money on those, I wouldn't have sold a truck or two to help cover the costs on the SEOS10 and 15 that just got done. rolleyes.gif

Profit for compression drivers:

This is barely worth talking about. The 350's were my own find, which is why they were so cheap. The 360's are OEM drivers with some custom diaphragms that make them so good. The diaphragms come from a different manufacturer. In the future I will be assembling all of them here in the US. The guy that helped me on these wanted a $9 royalty that was added in and he told me to add in a very small amount just in case there were any QC issues. But later he said not to send him the $9 and to just roll that into future group buy funding....which I have. I have not paid myself one penny from any of this. Any extra money saved from shipping fees, no QC issues or anything else has been rolled right back into the group buy funds.

Profit from flat packs:

It was discussed early on that there would be a little extra added in on some of these due to the weight and needing help to package them up. I was also told to add in a little just in case there was shipping damage. I talked about that in the flat pack thread. Anyone that has received a 4cuft sub understands why help is needed for packaging them, and to cover packaging material. Why is money added in? At first I hoped my sister would help package some flat packs for about $5 each. So that was added in. But the bigger ones were just too heavy and she couldn't lift 70lb boxes. I now have a guy come here 1-2 days per week to package up the larger flat packs in his spare time. Again, this was discussed in the other thread. MTG90 was here for a couple weeks and can verify that someone does help package them up. That guy must be paid.


AGAIN If there is ANY money left over from what is set aside for QC issues, saved shipping, saved non damaged shipping, or whatever.....I have NOT paid myself a cent from that. It rolls back into the group buy funds.
Edited by Erich H - 12/9/13 at 6:11pm
post #183 of 280
Erich, no need to explain anything. Most of us know and appreciate your efforts. Most of us also know that there is no way you are getting rich from the DIY sales...quite the contrary.
Thanks for all you do and continue to do here.

No good deed as they say....mad.gif
post #184 of 280
I should note that a few months ago I discussed making some completed speakers with the designers. That would likely allow for some profit to be made so things can continue and get better.

If there are new models designed specifically for completed speakers, I might set up a limited number as DIY kits prior to the completed models. This is all still being worked out.
post #185 of 280
No need to "note" anything. If you want to make a profit, you not only have the right to do so, but to do it how you see fit.

Don't get caught up in the petty garbage here. Just do your thing and let those that appreciate it continue to do so.smile.gif
post #186 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by a|F View Post

You are right.

We should not discuss heinous claims or those that make them.

You have inferred, what I did not imply. Allow me to clarify.

I think discussing claims, pro or con on nearly any subject, is fair game. Name calling is childish, accomplishes nothing, and has no place on a discussion forum.
+++

"We should not discuss heinous claims"

"heinous" ??? eek.gif

adjective
adjective: heinous

1. (of a person or wrongful act, esp. a crime) utterly odious or wicked. "a battery of heinous crimes"
synonyms:odious, wicked, evil, atrocious, monstrous, abominable, detestable, contemptible, reprehensible, despicable, egregious, horrific, terrible, awful, abhorrent, loathsome, hideous, unspeakable, execrable; iniquitous, villainous, beyond the pale

Jeez, it's not like a anyone was killed by dropping a speaker on their head, then the heinous person stole their crossover design. rolleyes.gif
Edited by wvu80 - 12/9/13 at 9:18am
post #187 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

In the full context of my post I feel it's relavent because it's important to note where the individual parties stand, or are perceived to stand, or are accused to stand. It also goes to show that Craig may view Erich as a profit making competitor which may be why his product was targeted.

I wouldn't actually say the SEOS was targeted and frankly I doubt many potential SEOS buyers would be fooled by this attempt. What Craig did was shine a falsely positive light upon his speakers. It is no coincidence that the Fusion-10, undoubtedly tweaked to sound its worst, was played first. There is no better way to make the second speaker sound amazing then to have people first listen to a speaker that is showing a glaring issue. Car salesman have done this for years.

Years ago I knew a speaker salesman at one of the local hifi shops (not in present city). He showed me the tricks they would pull with their switching panel to make different speakers sound good and move product. If they sized a person up as a bargain buyer they would make the cheaper version sound better then that more expensive version and sell based on the perceived deal. If they felt that someone was looking for top of the line and was shopping multiple stores he would have them start one speaker below, but set it up with some obvious issues. Then bring out the TOTL running normally and the customer would be blown away. If the customer went to another store he would compare that differential experience to the TOTL at the next store. That TOTL would suddenly be underwhelming without the contrast of the tweaked speaker.

The Fusion-10 was chosen because it is well-regarded and widely known. By "beating" it in a fake DBT CHT would get instant buzz and credibility. This was effectively theft of brand and product equity. Does anybody trust Coke vs Pepsi taste tests? Oops the Coke reps forgot and left the Pepsi open for a few days. Gee, maybe that is why it is flat?

Was it a coincidence that Chase chose MK? MK is known because of his presence on the forums. Why didn't Chase just buy the kits directly and build them himself? Why didn't he find someone who had already purchased their own and could confirm that they were operating correctly. Why didn't Chase have someone independent do the double blind? Probably a list of innocent reasons. Sure.

Anyway, if these speakers end up on his website I'll buy a few and take some measurements. Who knows maybe they are amazing. Of course I could do a shootout between the new CHT speakers and some Bose cubes. I could probably even make the Bose cubes sound dynamic....in comparison.
post #188 of 280
I have little of substance to add to this discussion. I just wanted to note that many of us (myself included) have had the displeasure of being personally attacked and ridiculed by CC in the past when questioning his shady practices. Many of the individuals I see posting negatively about him were one-time supporters and defenders of his before they found themselves on the opposite side of his childish behavior.

That said, during my "altercation" with him he sent me some messages mocking and bragging about how all the negative attention his site was getting was great for business. It seems there really is no such thing as bad press. With that in mind I'd encourage everyone to write this off as the act of desperation that it is. Further investigation will just drag discussion out and empower his "new product" as a realistic option... That was likely his goal the entire time, taking aim at the DIY community to stir discussion and get people to take sides.
post #189 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

It is no coincidence that the Fusion-10, undoubtedly tweaked to sound its worst, was played first.

Unless you have proof, might be better to not throw around wild accusations.
post #190 of 280
Trying to stay as neutral in all of this as possible. But I'd bet my bottom dollar that *IF* the theater 10 held it's own or even beat the fusion 10 in independent testing, no one here that made any accusations would bother to apologize or admit any wrong-doing.
post #191 of 280
I think we are getting a little ahead of ourselves, no? The only person that posts here from the Gtg is me and I never said one was better than the other. I do know the Theater 10 sound very good. I also know the SEOS sound very good in my room. CHT did not pick me, it was a offer to everyone and I jumped on it because now I have the speakers, a chance to go to a GTG to have fun, and the wife did not mind. The SEOS sound excellent to me with a better or smoother high end than my DR's but my DR's have that huge dynamic and Midbass impact I love so I like them better. I know have my DR's sounding smooth again so now I will compare once more. I have not measured the SEOS yet but I will and I will also measure the 888LP and DR for comparisons. The difference I heard at the GTG during the blind test was real except I knew it had to be a loudness thing. If the Theater 10's sound that much better than they would best my DR's and there is no way a single 10 will best dual horn loaded deltalite 10's. So I knew right away something was off. When I first hooked up te SEOS for the very first time and brought them over to my brother in laws house I thought they were top heavy but I also knew the woofer needed a little breakin. My friend instantly said he could here a detail advantage on the SEOS and the delta 10 on the SHO had more feel because it was used daily. I am still trying to get my brother in law to let me have a pair to test in my theater against the SEOS. I will measure both.
post #192 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

But I'd bet my bottom dollar that *IF* the theater 10 held it's own or even beat the fusion 10 in independent testing, no one here that made any accusations would bother to apologize or admit any wrong-doing.
I'm very sure that IF a reasonable attempt had been made for a proper comparison then there would be very few (if any) complaints. It takes about the same effort to do the job well as it does to do it wrong.
post #193 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinq View Post

I'm very sure that IF a reasonable attempt had been made for a proper comparison then there would be very few (if any) complaints. It takes about the same effort to do the job well as it does to do it wrong.

...Or someone else, impartial would have been in charge of the setup and switching. The issue is the host, the technician and the profiteer are all one in the same.
post #194 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

Unless you have proof, might be better to not throw around wild accusations.

I'll take that into consideration when companies stop conducting "double blind" tests improperly to prove the veracity of their product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

Trying to stay as neutral in all of this as possible. But I'd bet my bottom dollar that *IF* the theater 10 held it's own or even beat the fusion 10 in independent testing, no one here that made any accusations would bother to apologize or admit any wrong-doing.

I don't plan to have a "shootout" because it is very difficult to conduct a truly fair blind test. Beyond that, subjective opinions aren't worth much. I would simply conduct a battery of measurements that would be rather transparent. Hey, if CHT stumbled upon magical world beaters for $300/ea I'd turn into a customer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

I have little of substance to add to this discussion. I just wanted to note that many of us (myself included) have had the displeasure of being personally attacked and ridiculed by CC in the past when questioning his shady practices. Many of the individuals I see posting negatively about him were one-time supporters and defenders of his before they found themselves on the opposite side of his childish behavior.

That said, during my "altercation" with him he sent me some messages mocking and bragging about how all the negative attention his site was getting was great for business. It seems there really is no such thing as bad press. With that in mind I'd encourage everyone to write this off as the act of desperation that it is. Further investigation will just drag discussion out and empower his "new product" as a realistic option... That was likely his goal the entire time, taking aim at the DIY community to stir discussion and get people to take sides.

Hey, if he gets more customers that's fine by me. At least they would go to him with the curtain pulled back. I have never had any interaction with Craig or CHT. I've never heard his products, spoken to him or been a customer. I've heard of his reputation and that is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I think we are getting a little ahead of ourselves, no? The only person that posts here from the Gtg is me and I never said one was better than the other. I do know the Theater 10 sound very good. I also know the SEOS sound very good in my room. CHT did not pick me, it was a offer to everyone and I jumped on it because now I have the speakers, a chance to go to a GTG to have fun, and the wife did not mind. The SEOS sound excellent to me with a better or smoother high end than my DR's but my DR's have that huge dynamic and Midbass impact I love so I like them better. I know have my DR's sounding smooth again so now I will compare once more. I have not measured the SEOS yet but I will and I will also measure the 888LP and DR for comparisons. The difference I heard at the GTG during the blind test was real except I knew it had to be a loudness thing. If the Theater 10's sound that much better than they would best my DR's and there is no way a single 10 will best dual horn loaded deltalite 10's. So I knew right away something was off. When I first hooked up te SEOS for the very first time and brought them over to my brother in laws house I thought they were top heavy but I also knew the woofer needed a little breakin. My friend instantly said he could here a detail advantage on the SEOS and the delta 10 on the SHO had more feel because it was used daily. I am still trying to get my brother in law to let me have a pair to test in my theater against the SEOS. I will measure both.

MK, I'd bet the difference was far more than a "loudness" thing. The number of stunts he easily could have pulled are endless. When you take into account his prior behavior it would take a fool to accept that this was on the level.

How about you ask him if you can get a set of his new speakers to test in your room against the SEOS and DRs? I never said I felt you were in on his shenanigans although I personally wouldn't have let him personally conduct the double blind. I apologize if it sounded like I was saying you were in with him.
post #195 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

Unless you have proof, might be better to not throw around wild accusations.

I don't know, considering we've seen Craig throwing around wild accusations like this one towards Ilkka: he is "the biggest fraud I have ever met on any forum, ever."

Also considering it was when he was caught tripping over himself in a SVS vs HSU sub comparison with vastly different FR... it's only fair game.
post #196 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I don't know, considering we've seen Craig throwing around wild accusations like this one towards Ilkka: he is "the biggest fraud I have ever met on any forum, ever."

Also considering it was when he was caught tripping over himself in a SVS vs HSU sub comparison with vastly different FR... it's only fair game.

So that automatically justifies similar behavior from the avs community? I thought this forum was based on science and reason, not speculation.
post #197 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

This bothers me a bit because he must not have followed what's going on with the site. As for profit, let's talk about this in a couple parts. The site might look like there's a lot of stuff and that the person must be paying himself. But I get it all from Parts Express as needed, so it's not like I'm stocking thousands of woofers.

I've gone over this many times, but will do it again. I add up all costs for the kit including Paypal fees, packaging material, custom boxes, QC, etc. I weigh the kit and try to calculate an average price to cover the FREE shipping.....these aren't light speakers Parts Express gives me discounts on the components. Some kit parts are discounted more than others. I add up the discounts for a certain kit and use that discount to help cover the free shipping. If there is money left over, it goes to pay the designer fee, or I will add in extra to cover that. I'm sure Craig has a wholesale account and can easily.....easily add things up to see that the kits are priced at break even costs after the free shipping is covered and designer fees.

For example: Let's look at the Fusion-12. The wholesale versus retail price difference from is around $67. After I subtract free shipping and designer fees, guess what.....there was still $15 left over! Did I keep that? No, I actually listed the kit at $15 LESS than retail!

The wholesale versus retail price on the parts for the Fusion-10 is a difference of $37 when I last calculated it. That is used to cover the costs I just listed as well.

Some kits are so close that I might be losing money. And I would if there was any shipping damage (that's why I package things really good). I took down the Classix kit because of that, and the 15" Sentinel, and a couple others temporarily. I also had to change how the Amiga kit was offered because I did actually lose money on that one. My fault because I calculated wrong. I will need to recalculate those before the new price goes up. When MTG90 was here I added up the price on the Fusion-15 and I do believe I lost money on that one due to it's high shipping cost and expensive packaging material. That's one reason why it's temporarily removed. I need to recalculate it.


Profit for other items:

Anyone that followed along with the SEOS thread knows how much all of that cost. I even posted estimates and gave prices for prototyping and things like that as the project went. The current price covers the mold making and the first 1000 that were ordered (still not sure it covered everything). If and when every one of those first 1000 are completely gone.......I break even. The next batch won't need to cover the injection mold price and would be cheaper. At that point I could make money on them, or drop the price. Who knows until that first 1000 are gone and I order more. But until those first are sold, no money has been made. If I made money on those, I wouldn't have sold a truck or two to help cover the costs on the SEOS10 and 15 that just got done. rolleyes.gif

Profit for compression drivers:

This is barely worth talking about. The 350's were my own find, which is why they were so cheap. The 360's are OEM drivers with some custom diaphragms that make them so good. The diaphragms come from a different manufacturer. In the future I will be assembling all of them here in the US. The guy that helped me on these wanted a $9 royalty that was added in and he told me to add in a very small amount just in case there were any QC issues. But later he said not to send him the $9 and to just roll that into future group buy funding....which I have. I have not paid myself one penny from any of this. Any extra money saved from shipping fees, no QC issues or anything else has been rolled right back into the group buy funds.

Profit from flat packs:

It was discussed early on that there would be a little extra added in on some of these due to the weight and needing help to package them up. I was also told to add in a little just in case there was shipping damage. I talked about that in the flat pack thread. Anyone that has received a 4cuft sub understands why help is needed for packaging them, and to cover packaging material. Why is money added in? At first I hoped my sister would help package some flat packs for about $5 each. So that was added in. But the bigger ones were just too heavy and she couldn't lift 70lb boxes. I now have a guy come here every few days to package up the larger flat packs. Again, this was discussed in the other thread. MTG90 was here for a couple weeks and can verify that someone does help package them up. That guy must be paid.


AGAIN If there is ANY money left over from money set aside for QC issues, saved shipping, saved non damaged shipping, or whatever.....I have NOT paid myself a cent from that. It rolls back into the group buy funds.

Sorry for re-posting your whole post Erich but it is what it is.

I have not been on the boards a lot lately but enough to still see what you are still doing for the DIY crowd, and I firmly believe you should make some type of profit for you work. You know, actually make some money for the work that you do, what a concept.

Others may feel different but we are all entitled to our opinions and that one is mine.
post #198 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

So that automatically justifies similar behavior from the avs community? I thought this forum was based on science and reason, not speculation.

That's the thing, there's little speculation required when someone has built a reputation.

In fact, it would be quite un-reason-able to not take that reputation into consideration when that's literally all we've been given to go on at this point.
post #199 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinq View Post

I'm very sure that IF a reasonable attempt had been made for a proper comparison then there would be very few (if any) complaints. It takes about the same effort to do the job well as it does to do it wrong.

There would still be plenty of complaints just because this is CHT we are talking about here.

I do agree on the fact that if he was performing a blind test of products and that included one of his own- someone else should have been in charge of the signal chain. I'm sure he had to know to some level the controversy this would cause. Maybe that's the sales tactic who knows.

I really want to see the Theater 10 independently tested vs the fusion 10, then we can lay speculation to rest.
post #200 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Hey, if he gets more customers that's fine by me. At least they would go to him with the curtain pulled back. I have never had any interaction with Craig or CHT. I've never heard his products, spoken to him or been a customer. I've heard of his reputation and that is all.

Fair enough and I wish you the best I just wanted to make sure you know what you're getting into smile.gif Unfortunately the curtain never really gets pulled back, instead attacks on credibility occur (just like us attacking his credibility lol), camps form on either side, and his customer base is galvanized... ultimately he wins which is likely why he keeps playing this game.

Regardless I have tons of respect for you and the others here smile.gif
post #201 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

There would still be plenty of complaints just because this is CHT we are talking about here.

I do agree on the fact that if he was performing a blind test of products and that included one of his own- someone else should have been in charge of the signal chain. I'm sure he had to know to some level the controversy this would cause. Maybe that's the sales tactic who knows.

I really want to see the Theater 10 independently tested vs the fusion 10, then we can lay speculation to rest.

Of course, the SEOS was sullied in this, at best botched double blind and at worst (most likely?) intentionally bastardized test. Oh and the speakers used to sully this reputation aren't readily available to the best of my knowledge.

Lennon_68 makes a good argument that ultimately this huckster shouldn't be given any attention. The age old question of when to fight back.

Like I said before, I won't do a subjective comparison as I don't feel that brings any clarity and are extremely difficult to do properly where everyone is given a fair shake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

Fair enough and I wish you the best I just wanted to make sure you know what you're getting into smile.gif Unfortunately the curtain never really gets pulled back, instead attacks on credibility occur (just like us attacking his credibility lol), camps form on either side, and his customer base is galvanized... ultimately he wins which is likely why he keeps playing this game.

Regardless I have tons of respect for you and the others here smile.gif

There would be no back and forth and I really have no reputation at stake. If the measurements are disputed, others can post their own. It is pretty simple.
post #202 of 280
Thread Starter 
The real stand-out in all of this being alluded to by coctostan I believe was mentioned by Tux a few pages back.

Look at all of the measurements and objective data provided for the SEOS and Tux for his Fusion design.

Look at the lack of a single measurement for the Theater-10.

Note who is and isn't trying to make money here.

Note also who thought it best to single out the Fusion-10 by leaving the comparison entirely to subjectivity.

If heads aren't scratching, your "neutrality" is indeed in question.
post #203 of 280
If my wife does not want to watch a movie tonight what measurements do you guys want to see from my DR's, SEOS, and 888LP? As I said before even during the blind test I picked out two things I still liked better on the SEOS, feel from vocals and midbass punch you get from the Avatar Score. If one were to really make them sound bad they would do it all the way, no? Anyways, I finally dialed in my DR's with the new HDMI computer and ASIO. This makes manual EQ a breeze without doing anything than changing numbers on the AVR! I never get the same audible results from auto EQ as I do with manual EQ. I guess a little work goes a long way. There were people at the GTG who wanted to buy the SEOS. Hey, maybe I put them together incorrectly but I can't see that being a problem as they sound awesome in my room. I would like them better if they could play bigger and more dynamic, I hope to hear the SEOSR one day. I have always thought the SHO-10 lacked midbass and the SEOS is no different using the same woofer. When I say that I mean that big drum impact you get from scores and such, I guess I am used to 15's or horn loaded woofs now. My DR 10's are not as good as my dual 15's I had but they make a good effort.
post #204 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I think we are getting a little ahead of ourselves, no? The only person that posts here from the Gtg is me and I never said one was better than the other. I do know the Theater 10 sound very good. I also know the SEOS sound very good in my room. CHT did not pick me, it was a offer to everyone and I jumped on it because now I have the speakers, a chance to go to a GTG to have fun, and the wife did not mind. The SEOS sound excellent to me with a better or smoother high end than my DR's but my DR's have that huge dynamic and Midbass impact I love so I like them better. I know have my DR's sounding smooth again so now I will compare once more. I have not measured the SEOS yet but I will and I will also measure the 888LP and DR for comparisons. The difference I heard at the GTG during the blind test was real except I knew it had to be a loudness thing. If the Theater 10's sound that much better than they would best my DR's and there is no way a single 10 will best dual horn loaded deltalite 10's. So I knew right away something was off. When I first hooked up te SEOS for the very first time and brought them over to my brother in laws house I thought they were top heavy but I also knew the woofer needed a little breakin. My friend instantly said he could here a detail advantage on the SEOS and the delta 10 on the SHO had more feel because it was used daily. I am still trying to get my brother in law to let me have a pair to test in my theater against the SEOS. I will measure both.

The sound of your Fusion 10's is the part of this thread I am actually interested in. (and btw, what exactly are your "DR"s?)

To my ears, my two Fusion 10s (F10s) are not top heavy, but very smooth in that range, and maybe mild in the mid/bass. I was concerned that in your initial GTG the F10s were described as "flat" which is exactly how I would describe my F10s BEFORE THEY WERE BROKEN IN, as that Eminence woofer is very stiff out of the box. My F10s didn't require a "little" breaking in, they required a LOT, as in 1-2 months. I got mine in July, and here in December they sound pretty good, and frankly I think they sound better every day.

Again, to my ears the F10s are very smooth from bottom (about 80 Hz) to top. I EQ'd mine for more "pop" in the musical lower/mid range, which is where you said you could hear your DRs really shine. I would be interested if you have the same experience with the break-in period as I did.

For comparison purposes BTW, my F10s are lined with 1/2 inch foam sheets all around, no eggshell foam, no fiber fill.
post #205 of 280
I did not line them at all. When I say top heavy meaning the woofer has not broken in yet so the highs are a little more dominant than they normally would be. I broke them in before I brought them to the GTG. 1-2 months of breaking in is excessive to me as I have never needed any speaker to take that long. I played them at reference levels for many demos and a whole movie. Reference level listening tends to speed up the process. My dual 15 inch JBL's took about 5 demos of WOTW to sound balanced. Measurements of those speakers confirmed that everything was fine. I have not played the SEOS since the GTG and a measurement should show if the woofer is not broken in yet. The highs have always been smooth and accurate so that is not what was missing from the get go. I am very familiar with the delta 10's and their more expensive siblings.
post #206 of 280
MK, a room response of each would tell us a few things since your room is fairly clean. It will be interesting to see if the tall stature of the DRs will mitigate any floor/ceiling reflections. Any pseudo-anechoic measurements would be tough to do in your room with only 7' ceilings.
post #207 of 280
I know the fusions sound great without EQ and just placed on the floor tilted up at the listeners. I will measure to see why and if not flat they could only get better! I won't get rid of them until they have their fair shot. The DR's are massive with massive sound so I am used to that. That is why I liked the JBL pro so much.
post #208 of 280
They might have a down sloping response in room, and this isn't bad.
post #209 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I know the fusions sound great without EQ and just placed on the floor tilted up at the listeners. I will measure to see why and if not flat they could only get better! I won't get rid of them until they have their fair shot. The DR's are massive with massive sound so I am used to that. That is why I liked the JBL pro so much.
MK did all the JBL pro that you tried have that big sound? Wondering bout the 3622 u had. Think the 3722 replaced them which I'm interested in buying
post #210 of 280
Tux,
A downward slope is what I EQ for. Usually I have a processor that has THX and THX mode does that for me. The reason I always liked the THX processors.

JBL pro speakers sound huge and makes a small room sound like a cineplex. I replaced JTR 888 speakers a long time ago with JBL pro speakers and that big sound with big Midbass drew me in.

I will be measuring soon, I have a new lap top with HDMI so it should be fun and simple. I will post results in my thread.
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