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Movie mode & Warm1&2 are not the best options for Samsung calibration

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
Samsung TVs utilize 4:2:2 chroma subsampling for TVs' regular viewing modes, including Movie mode. But it really is not the best mode to be used because 4:2:2 subsampling creates pixel ugliness -

AFAIK Sony and other manufacturers have the same thing going on when using 4:2:2. Its not a bug, its how they designed it to be, its more or less normal, but it is still ugly when it comes down to fine text, lines, and dots on the screen. I can't find the exact thread, but it was discussed on AVS forums in depth..

So, some will advice to use PC Mode, which uses 4:4:4 subsampling, but PC Mode ignores CMS controls in either service menu or user menu, often leaving image under-saturated and slightly increasing black level point. There are also YC_Delay (Chroma Alignment Delay) options, which can be used to improve 4:2:2 pixel ugliness. Setting the delay to 0 is the best option in any mode.

However, the best thing to do is to simply use the Game Mode! Game Mode not only reduces input lag by means of disabling all internal processing, but it also eliminates 4:2:2 pixel issues without disabling CMS calibration adjustments! All you need to do is to calibrate Normal color tone in Standard mode to be just like Warm1/2 color tones - 6500K! Disable dynamic contrast, turn off edge enhancement, reduce sharpness, etc. and you got yourself a non-PC 4:2:2 mode with all calibrations, but no ugly pixels! The end-result is image superior to the one in Movie mode.

I just did that and re-tested all my calibrations - Game Mode retained all of them and slightly increased contrast ratio. Its the best mode to be used on Samsung HDTVs for movies, games, desktop/browser.
Edited by MonarchX - 11/25/13 at 4:14pm
post #2 of 11
Wow, interesting. I will have to check this out smile.gif
post #3 of 11
Hmmm my es8000 LCD won't even get close to d65 in game mode and standard color mode, even with blue gain and offset at zero and red and green gains and offsets at 50 I still have way too much blue in my grayscale
post #4 of 11
Let's not forget here, that all DVDs, Blu-Rays and HDTV (cable, satellite, fios) content is 4:2:0.

No TV can replace content that's not there.
post #5 of 11
April 1st?
post #6 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

April 1st?

No? Its not really relevant for movie-only content/devices like satellite and/or cable boxes, BD/DVD players, but it has advantages for HTPC users and gamers who want a Rec.709-calibrated image and 2 things that Movie mode can't offer - fine text/pixels & low input lag.

Game mode was officially designed to reduce input lag from game controllers. It does so by reducing the amount of processing TV has to perform to the image, thus reducing the time it takes to see the image after a change has occurred. For example, assume Movie mode input lag is 50ms - if you move left with Game Mode OFF, you will see your game toon move left 50ms after you press "move left" button. If you do the same with Game Mode ON, then you will see your game toon move left 30ms after you press "move left" button. I do not know the exact amount of reduction in ms, but less input lag is always welcome in games. However, with Game Mode ON bypassing TV processing also ends up bypassing conversion of RGB/4:4:4 content to 4:2:2, but it does NOT bypass CMS adjustments. Movies use 4:2:0 and upscaling to 4:2:2 is not an issue, but game consoles menus, games, laptop/PC desktops, browsers, PC games, etc. use 4:4:4/RGB if possible. When you try to view 4:4:4 content in Movie mode, you get somewhat distorted text and pixels. Its not a huge problem, but some find it annoying. That is why PC Mode uses 4:4:4 - it bypasses even more of internal TV processing, including the needed CMS. Game Mode is pretty much in-between fully processed Movie mode and completely unprocessed PC Mode, going through enough processing to reduce input lag, provide fine text/pixels and utilize CMS calibration settings.

That is the only way I can explain why right now I am using my PC in Game Mode and manage to see clear text and pixels along with CMS adjustments I made without the usual 4:2:2 distortion. I am NOT using PC Mode either! I tested everything in HCFR and CalMAN v5. All I had to do was to calibrate Normal color tone to be exactly like my Warm2 color tone.

I am not 100% sure about sharpening... I set it to 0, turned off edge enhancement, but I think SOME of it stayed. Even with that issue, it ends up being a better mode for those who want great movie and text fidelity IMO.
Edited by MonarchX - 11/25/13 at 4:18pm
post #7 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post

Hmmm my es8000 LCD won't even get close to d65 in game mode and standard color mode, even with blue gain and offset at zero and red and green gains and offsets at 50 I still have way too much blue in my grayscale

Have you tried using the service menu? That is what I had to do.
post #8 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Let's not forget here, that all DVDs, Blu-Rays and HDTV (cable, satellite, fios) content is 4:2:0.

No TV can replace content that's not there.

But those with HTPCs and game consoles view plenty of non-movie/film content, much of which was designed to be seen using 4:4:4/RGB mode.
post #9 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

But those with HTPCs and game consoles view plenty of non-movie/film content, much of which was designed to be seen using 4:4:4/RGB mode.

You should probably go do some research on a humans ability to detect the difference between 4:2:0, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 on content that isn't single pixel solid color test patterns.
post #10 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You should probably go do some research on a humans ability to detect the difference between 4:2:0, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 on content that isn't single pixel solid color test patterns.

You should probably go do some research on a human's ability to use displays for more than just movies. Text is made from single pixels... I enjoy having clear text right now as I type this sentence.

Do you know what Anti-Aliasing is? 3D games have edge aliasing/jaggies that occur simply because graphics is shown through pixels and people spend a lot of money to get the latest videocards to smooth out aliasing with anti-aliasing because those single-pixel big jaggies are ugly as hell.
Edited by MonarchX - 11/25/13 at 4:47pm
post #11 of 11
I'm looking at a Samsung TV right now. It is in 4:2:2 mode and it looks at least as good as 4:4:4 or RGB mode. Absolutely nothing wrong with 4:2:2 mode. Nor CAN there be anything wrong with 4:2:2 mode.

And as far as I know, Movie mode and Warm1 & Warm2 do not default to any particular mode. You select YCbCr and when you do that, you can also choose 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. You can also select RGB mode... when you do that, there is no such thing as 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, it is just RGB. But when you select RGB mode, you also have to select 16-235 or 0-255 depending on what the source is doing.

The image you attached could be caused by any number of things that have NOTHING to do with 4:2:2.

That said, there are some TVs that just never look good with some combination of settings. Sometimes they look worse when you select RGB. Sometimes they look worse when you select YCbCr. That's why we always check both modes and use the one that looks the best.

The number of TV models that look worse in YCbCr 4:2:2 mode than in YCbCr 4:4:4 or in RGB 16-235 or RGB 0-255 is very small... probably less than 5% of the TV/projector models I've ever seen. One of the TVs I ran into that looked better in RGB mode than in YCbCr mode was a Sony XBR LCD panel from about 4 years ago. But non-XBR Sony TVs from the same model year looked perfectly fine in YCbCr mode. So there was a definite design issue in that particular TV model.
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