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Finally we have a simple way to rate and compare subwoofers! - Page 2

post #31 of 197
Quote:
Hey I got no issue with PSA and they are selling subwoofers so rock on. I think they are competitive subwoofers at their price points, I just think the PSA value factor can be taken with a grain of salt. [/QUOTE



From the graphs I noticed things from the start over at Data, but your final conclusion is where I stand.
post #32 of 197
I dont care much for charts or trash talk, what makes me a PSA fan is the fact that they do give outstanding customer service from the time someone first calls or emails they answer all questions to the best of their knowledge and spend ample time with each individuals needs. Ive called many other companies this year to obtain each piece of equipment for my setup and PSA had the most friendly service. Even if another company had better speakers a persons name means the most in the business world, success is made from trust. Then theres all the abundant positive feedback from people who actually own their products, so thats another win. Last is the fact that I finally recieved one of their products and it was beyond my expectations, so much that I dropped another $2,800 the next day for a 2nd purchase. So as a new customer, any charts posted were not even a factor for my choice of purchasing. Now if someone did not like them then I wouldnt see anything wrong with that but that doesnt mean they arent a great company. They have their reasons for posting charts and they dont need them up to sell their product. So 3 reasons id say they are a great company

1# over the top customer service, never any pressure when buying
2# high percentage of positive feedback from customers
3# personally owning their product and experiencing the outstanding quality with my own eyes and ears

Why would any numbers matter or charts at this point if the subwoofer I purchased has gone beyond my needs and delivers in every test I can put it through without a sweat? Whether its quality, output, frequency range, duration, ect. It just passes with flying colors. Obtaining all my needs from just one subwoofer in a large room is in itself a noteworthy accompishment and the only question I have is how much longer until my house falls apart? Yeah im pretty sure their products dont lack when you compare what all is out there at the same prices.
post #33 of 197

I don't know why PSA decided to put out those charts but I wish they hadn't. As a current owner I certainly don't think they are necessary. Their products speak for themselves and word of mouth testimony like what blackmamba shared above is far more important than questionable marketing techniques.

 

But on the bright side, it gave us something to talk about. :rolleyes:

post #34 of 197
[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

I don't know why PSA decided to put out those charts but I wish they hadn't. As a current owner I certainly don't think they are necessary. Their products speak for themselves and word of mouth testimony like what blackmamba shared above is far more important than questionable marketing techniques.

But on the bright side, it gave us something to talk about. rolleyes.gif

Yeah I'm not sure what the companies purpose with the charts are, but im sure if a person was to ask, that Tom would shed some light on the subject. As consumers we may not understand the full aspect of the way companies go about advertising. I know that with home audio, such as with receivers, amps, speakers, ect. Many companies advertise specs in sneaky ways to trick customers into thinking their product can do more than it actually can. I don't doubt PSA though because I've measured my Triax at different frequency ranges and it does just like they state it should. As far as quality, well from the build of the enclosure, the quality of internal amplification, and to the breathtaking design of the drivers, it's not surprising that I'm getting out of this world, quality preformance! I'd love to see how many powered subwoofers there are in this price range that could even keep up with this monster!
Edited by Blackmambakila - 11/29/13 at 4:46pm
post #35 of 197
It's marketing people, get over it! You mean at the Volkswagon "Sign and Drive" event, I actually have to pay for it? Come on, that's false advertising...you said I just had to sign a paper and drive off with the car!

I believe in my heart most people would do their due diligence and homework and speak with the different companies and purchase based off what works for your situation (I.e. Financial situation, needs, etc...). There is always your 30 day refund period if you are unhappy with your purchase.
If anyone has ever spoken with Tom, he gives you comparisons to your current sub versus his lineup. I have seen on occasions where he has recommended people purchase a different sub because the PSA was not going to meet their expectations (prior to Triax arrival). I don't think you will see too many business owners recommend you buy a competitor's product, but that is just the way he runs business!
post #36 of 197
Comparator charts have been a consumer tool used to add choices for years. Many of us will sit down at our computers and draw up our own spreadsheets to help us with our final choice. This being a fact, the only time someone is going make a stink out of a company using this tool, is someone who's got an ax to grind.

(walke108 beat me to the idea)
post #37 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

It's marketing people, get over it! You mean at the Volkswagon "Sign and Drive" event, I actually have to pay for it? Come on, that's false advertising...you said I just had to sign a paper and drive off with the car!

I believe in my heart most people would do their due diligence and homework and speak with the different companies and purchase based off what works for your situation (I.e. Financial situation, needs, etc...). There is always your 30 day refund period if you are unhappy with your purchase.
If anyone has ever spoken with Tom, he gives you comparisons to your current sub versus his lineup. I have seen on occasions where he has recommended people purchase a different sub because the PSA was not going to meet their expectations (prior to Triax arrival). I don't think you will see too many business owners recommend you buy a competitor's product, but that is just the way he runs business!

Yeah... I know it's marketing but I just don't think it was necessary for the very reason you shared. I have dealt with Tom through email (many times) and found him to be great. I can personally say that I had an experience similar to blackmamba, when I got my XV15 I was blown away and now I'm looking to buy a 2nd. And the reason I bought the XV15 had nothing to do with any questionable charts, it had to do with all the positive reviews I heard regarding their products.

 

It's just that marketing often leaves a bitter taste in people's mouths if it's questionable in any way. And obviously this thread verifies that some find it questionable. 

post #38 of 197
Thread Starter 
For those trying to use the VTF15h's modest driver as leverage against my complaints about the Power X driver quality, I will say that at least Hsu has taken measures to control inductance. As Luke pointed out, this is necessary for the sake of linearity, or else you end up with a peakish frequency response and thus less accuracy. Then there is the impact of inductance on transient response, which the experts can explain more succinctly than I can:
Quote:
So, the voice coil is an inductor. And we see that inductors don't like to change current. But we also see
from equation 4 above that we need to change the current if we want to change the acceleration. So, the
voice coil doesn't want us to change the current. How good is it at holding the current? Depends upon the
inductance! The higher the inductance of the driver, the longer it can hold the current flowing through it.
Which means the more time elapses before it starts to respond to the amplifier's applied voltage. Which
means we have slower transient response.

Guess what - we just answered the original question! It turns out that transient response of a woofer is not
a function of the moving mass, as is commonly espoused (one of the most infamous audio myths). In
actuality, it is based upon the inductance of the driver. And the greater the inductance, the slower the
driver - the lower the transient response.

Moreover, the VTF15h's large enclosure size and ports are used in abetment with the driver to achieve its performance (you know, an engineering solution), whereas the XV15 actually uses its inductance derived response peak as a selling point by using it to boost CEA averages while masking its frequency response (you know, a marketing solution). A clever tactic on PSA's behalf, I must admit, and a lucrative one, as PSA seems to be doing very well. That's the problem with CEA, now subwoofers are being judged by over-simplified metrics, and so the race to the bottom has begun has begun with PSA in the lead. I pray to god that the other sub makers do not follow suite, but I know it has to be tempting. They could make a killing by tossing out all efforts for accurate reproduction in exchange for raw loudness, sort of like the loudness wars in recordings.
post #39 of 197
Perhaps you folks think that charts are there for the well-informed. One need not comment on every single subject. Walke beat you to the idea of calling it marketing? Can't be when you just deemed it a tool. Sometimes silence is golden. Afterall, you missed the point. It is the level of respect for Tom and his knowledge of the subject that we find the charts too vague and consequently misleading.
post #40 of 197
Shady -

Do you have issues with PSA aside from their subwoofers? I ask this in all seriousness, because you come across as an anti-PSA zealot. It takes away from your arguments. I bought HB-1s and HC-1s based on your advice and am very happy, but lately you seem bent on attacking PSA. It leads me to believe something has happened that the rest of the world is not privy too.

Also, you throw a lot of metrics around and blanketly say PSA is worse on all but output. You also mention tat they have a peaky frequency curve. Isn't that what DSP is for if someone is so inclined?
post #41 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I dont care much for charts or trash talk, what makes me a PSA fan is the fact that they do give outstanding customer service from the time someone first calls or emails they answer all questions to the best of their knowledge and spend ample time with each individuals needs. Ive called many other companies this year to obtain each piece of equipment for my setup and PSA had the most friendly service. Even if another company had better speakers a persons name means the most in the business world, success is made from trust. Then theres all the abundant positive feedback from people who actually own their products, so thats another win. Last is the fact that I finally recieved one of their products and it was beyond my expectations, so much that I dropped another $2,800 the next day for a 2nd purchase. So as a new customer, any charts posted were not even a factor for my choice of purchasing. Now if someone did not like them then I wouldnt see anything wrong with that but that doesnt mean they arent a great company. They have their reasons for posting charts and they dont need them up to sell their product. So 3 reasons id say they are a great company

1# over the top customer service, never any pressure when buying
2# high percentage of positive feedback from customers
3# personally owning their product and experiencing the outstanding quality with my own eyes and ears

Why would any numbers matter or charts at this point if the subwoofer I purchased has gone beyond my needs and delivers in every test I can put it through without a sweat? Whether its quality, output, frequency range, duration, ect. It just passes with flying colors. Obtaining all my needs from just one subwoofer in a large room is in itself a noteworthy accompishment and the only question I have is how much longer until my house falls apart? Yeah im pretty sure their products dont lack when you compare what all is out there at the same prices.
This is an excellent post and echoes what a lot of Submersive owners said, even folks who once found the thought heresy.biggrin.gif. Ironically, the science that drove this site is the reason we have such high quality choices at the various price points. I wonder what this new philosophy means for future offerings, as a consumer.
post #42 of 197
Psa is very smart for releasing that chart. For someone that is new to the subwoofer world. And they happen to go to PSA site. They would see the chart. And see all the camparisons. And automatically think. Ok, psa seems to be the best options. It is a smart business move on PSA part.
post #43 of 197
Thread Starter 
And for those who try to sweep my arguments by saying I am merely biased and somehow have a grudge against PSA and its owners (as if ad hominem attacks somehow de-legitimized my criticisms), let me set the record straight. I don't know Tom and Jim, I don't have any feelings about them one way or the other. Whatever anyone has said, I don't care about who was in business when and where. None of this is personal with me, and even if any of you feel that it is, you should take the high road and address my arguments, not my person.

You might be asking yourself, if shady doesn't have a personal grudge, why does he keep getting into these arguments? It usually starts with someone advocating PSA subs begins ripping on another subwoofer, usually by pointing to erroneous CEA averages. I don't let them get away with that so easy, because it's based on deception. But it always starts with someone hyping PSA at the expense of another sub on spurious grounds. If you don't believe me, go ahead and root through my post history, and try to find some exceptions and link to them. In the case of this thread, it was PSA themselves who start trashing other sub companies within PSA's own product pages! Please do not brush this dishonest tactic as "just marketing", it is purely misleading, and, in the case of the XV15's CEA numbers, outright fabrication. If a company spreads BS, how is it not OK for me to call them on that BS? Even if I had some kind of sinister ulterior motive, would it matter in this respect?
post #44 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

Psa is very smart for releasing that chart. For someone that is new to the subwoofer world. And they happen to go to PSA site. They would see the chart. And see all the camparisons. And automatically think. Ok, psa seems to be the best options. It is a smart business move on PSA part.

I agree, but they would still be moving product based on deceptive advertising. Lol, I guess that is not exactly a new strategy in the world of audio- I was about to say it would be new to the world of internet direct subwoofers, but then I remembered AV123, lol!
post #45 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

And for those who try to sweep my arguments by saying I am merely biased and somehow have a grudge against PSA and its owners (as if ad hominem attacks somehow de-legitimized my criticisms), let me set the record straight. I don't know Tom and Jim, I don't have any feelings about them one way or the other. Whatever anyone has said, I don't care about who was in business when and where. None of this is personal with me, and even if any of you feel that it is, you should take the high road and address my arguments, not my person.

You might be asking yourself, if shady doesn't have a personal grudge, why does he keep getting into these arguments? It usually starts with someone advocating PSA subs begins ripping on another subwoofer, usually by pointing to erroneous CEA averages. I don't let them get away with that so easy, because it's based on deception. But it always starts with someone hyping PSA at the expense of another sub on spurious grounds. If you don't believe me, go ahead and root through my post history, and try to find some exceptions and link to them. In the case of this thread, it was PSA themselves who start trashing other sub companies within PSA's own product pages! Please do not brush this dishonest tactic as "just marketing", it is purely misleading, and, in the case of the XV15's CEA numbers, outright fabrication. If a company spreads BS, how is it not OK for me to call them on that BS? Even if I had some kind of sinister ulterior motive, would it matter in this respect?

Thank you for clearing up your stance on Tom and Jim. I was not ignoring your arguments, nor am I qualified to support or refute them. I was simply saying from my laymens point of view you seem to be leaning into the wind on the anti-PSA stance. Maybe your right, maybe not. It does make informative reading.

The one take-away I have is you need to listen with your own ears. Sound reproduction seems to be as much about emotion as science.
post #46 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

And for those who try to sweep my arguments by saying I am merely biased and somehow have a grudge against PSA and its owners (as if ad hominem attacks somehow de-legitimized my criticisms), let me set the record straight. I don't know Tom and Jim, I don't have any feelings about them one way or the other. Whatever anyone has said, I don't care about who was in business when and where. None of this is personal with me, and even if any of you feel that it is, you should take the high road and address my arguments, not my person.

You might be asking yourself, if shady doesn't have a personal grudge, why does he keep getting into these arguments? It usually starts with someone advocating PSA subs begins ripping on another subwoofer, usually by pointing to erroneous CEA averages. I don't let them get away with that so easy, because it's based on deception. But it always starts with someone hyping PSA at the expense of another sub on spurious grounds. If you don't believe me, go ahead and root through my post history, and try to find some exceptions and link to them. In the case of this thread, it was PSA themselves who start trashing other sub companies within PSA's own product pages! Please do not brush this dishonest tactic as "just marketing", it is purely misleading, and, in the case of the XV15's CEA numbers, outright fabrication. If a company spreads BS, how is it not OK for me to call them on that BS? Even if I had some kind of sinister ulterior motive, would it matter in this respect?

Sorry, your explanation is BS. You had an axe to grind against PSA WAY before they released these latest graphs. You also had an axe to grind against SVS (I believe that's where Tom comes from). If it's not personal, then boy do you walk a VERY thin line.

It's why I am blocking you. I've had enough of your biased bashings. Also why I advise every else do the same. There's a reason he got the "troll" moniker.

To everyone else. Have a GREAT Thanksgiving!
post #47 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timokreon View Post

Sorry, your explanation is BS. You had an axe to grind against PSA WAY before they released these latest graphs. You also had an axe to grind against SVS (I believe that's where Tom comes from). If it's not personal, then boy do you walk a VERY thin line.

It's why I am blocking you. I've had enough of your biased bashings. Also why I advise every else do the same. There's a reason he got the "troll" moniker.

If I have an axe to grind and all my 'bashings' are biased, please point to specific examples where I am being unfair. Please just link to a single instance, just one. Oh that's right, that would take effort, nevermind. It's easier just to write me off as biased and block me so you don't actually have to address any of my arguments. After all, how dare I criticize a product that you own! The nerve of some people!

With regards to the troll moniker, on Audioholics I was not given that by any mod, it is automatically assigned if your posts gather enough 'dings' from other posters as a feature of that forum. A couple guys do not like what I have to say there, and they 'ding' all of my posts. I do not get into arguments for the sake of conflict, and the mods of that forum or anywhere else I post at will vouch for that.
post #48 of 197
Oh I am pretty sure Mike C dinged you....wink.gif
post #49 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timokreon View Post

Sorry, your explanation is BS. You had an axe to grind against PSA WAY before they released these latest graphs. You also had an axe to grind against SVS (I believe that's where Tom comes from). If it's not personal, then boy do you walk a VERY thin line.

It's why I am blocking you. I've had enough of your biased bashings. Also why I advise every else do the same. There's a reason he got the "troll" moniker.

To everyone else. Have a GREAT Thanksgiving!
Why do you have so much emotion towards every thing he says? Shady has strong opinions, and being bias is part of the territory of having an opinion. I would totally understand if he directly insulted you.
post #50 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

And for those who try to sweep my arguments by saying I am merely biased and somehow have a grudge against PSA and its owners (as if ad hominem attacks somehow de-legitimized my criticisms), let me set the record straight. I don't know Tom and Jim, I don't have any feelings about them one way or the other. Whatever anyone has said, I don't care about who was in business when and where. None of this is personal with me

You really can't be saying this with a straight face.

So there is no history here at all? Nothing? I don't buy it.

You have too much venom towards them for it not to be personal.

There is nothing wrong with criticism, but you go above and beyond.
post #51 of 197
I am almost all set on getting the PSA XV-15 when I put together my system pretty soon. The only subwoofer I have owned was the original Hsu Research VTF-2 I got 10 years ago.

I have decided to get the VX-15 based on the DATABASS numbers. My calculations derived from DATABASS indicate that this is the best bang for the buck for under $800 shipped. At current prices, I can also say the same for Rythmik FV15HP at $1412 shipped and LFM-1EX at $599 shipped.

I have found that if I were to go for Hsu VTF-15H instead, I would be spending 16% more only to get 6% more performance. This is not worth it IMO.

I believe the PSA's chart is erroneously showing VX-15 a better subwoofer than VTF-15H. I found the chart not very tasteful.

On the other hand, according to DATABASS, at their respective price points, PSA VX-15 appears to be using a better driver than Hsu Research's VTF-15H.
post #52 of 197
It is rather funny that more then one forum member has picked up on the fact that shadyj had an axe to grind with SVS when Tom was there, and now with Tom's new company PSA. rolleyes.gif

Coincidence? I'll leave that up to others to judge. wink.gif
post #53 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It is rather funny that more then one forum member has picked up on the fact that shadyj had an axe to grind with SVS when Tom was there, and now with Tom's new company PSA. rolleyes.gif

Coincidence? I'll leave that up to others to judge. wink.gif

It doesn't mean his "charts" are correct lol
post #54 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

So there is no history here at all? Nothing? I don't buy it.

You have too much venom towards them for it not to be personal.

If I have a history here, don't just say it, prove it. I would not level that charge against you if I had nothing to back it up. If anyone had bothered to look, you would see that for awhile I was pretty enthusiastic about PSA's stuff when it was announced, especially when they released the first CEA numbers. This is a matter of record, you can go back and look it all up. But then the actual measurements came rolling in, it wasn't bad but it wasn't great either. And then I saw how it managed to accomplish relatively little with a large driver and 500 watt amp when I saw the actual naked driver being used, it made sense. Even then, I didn't really start objecting to PSA subs until their fans started ripping on all the competitors subs by pointing to a poor interpretation of CEA measurements. This is all a matter of public record, all of this stuff is still out there, it's easy to look up. Go look at my posts when their subs were first announced, go look at my posts when the first review came out at Audioholics, and look past that. Its easy to do if you limit searches by date, user, and word criteria. Don't just blithely accuse me of bias, there is a body of record to prove or disprove your assumptions, and it is just a finger touch away from you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckychuck7 View Post

I am almost all set on getting the PSA XV-15 when I put together my system pretty soon. The only subwoofer I have owned was the original Hsu Research VTF-2 I got 10 years ago.

I have decided to get the VX-15 based on the DATABASS numbers. My calculations derived from DATABASS indicate that this is the best bang for the buck for under $800 shipped. At current prices, I can also say the same for Rythmik FV15HP at $1412 shipped and LFM-1EX at $599 shipped.

I have found that if I were to go for Hsu VTF-15H instead, I would be spending 16% more only to get 6% more performance. This is not worth it IMO.

I believe the PSA's chart is erroneously showing VX-15 a better subwoofer than VTF-15H. I found the chart not very tasteful.

On the other hand, according to DATABASS, at their respective price points, PSA VX-15 appears to be using a better driver than Hsu Research's VTF-15H.

If all you care about is generalized CEA numbers, you have a good analysis. But just try comparing their compression, distortion, group delay, and waterfall decay times. This neatly illustrates my complaint about using CEA numbers alone to asses a sub's performance, and these kind of over-simplified comparisons are what PSA banks on. The VTF15h isn't using a great driver, but it is much superior to the XV15 because it doesn't need equalization to hold its response, it doesn't distort as badly when stressed, and it manages to stay cleaner at higher output levels than the XV15 can achieve, all while using less wattage. Look past simple CEA numbers, they only tell one part of the story with respect to performance.
post #55 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timokreon View Post

Sorry, your explanation is BS. You had an axe to grind against PSA WAY before they released these latest graphs. You also had an axe to grind against SVS (I believe that's where Tom comes from). If it's not personal, then boy do you walk a VERY thin line.

It's why I am blocking you. I've had enough of your biased bashings. Also why I advise every else do the same. There's a reason he got the "troll" moniker.

To everyone else. Have a GREAT Thanksgiving!






You kidding right?
post #56 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If I have a history here, don't just say it, prove it. I would not level that charge against you if I had nothing to back it up. If anyone had bothered to look, you would see that for awhile I was pretty enthusiastic about PSA's stuff when it was announced, especially when they released the first CEA numbers. This is a matter of record, you can go back and look it all up. But then the actual measurements came rolling in, it wasn't bad but it wasn't great either. And then I saw how it managed to accomplish relatively little with a large driver and 500 watt amp when I saw the actual naked driver being used, it made sense. Even then, I didn't really start objecting to PSA subs until their fans started ripping on all the competitors subs by pointing to a poor interpretation of CEA measurements. This is all a matter of public record, all of this stuff is still out there, it's easy to look up. Go look at my posts when their subs were first announced, go look at my posts when the first review came out at Audioholics, and look past that. Its easy to do if you limit searches by date, user, and word criteria. Don't just blithely accuse me of bias, there is a body of record to prove or disprove your assumptions, and it is just a finger touch away from you.
If all you care about is generalized CEA numbers, you have a good analysis. But just try comparing their compression, distortion, group delay, and waterfall decay times. This neatly illustrates my complaint about using CEA numbers alone to asses a sub's performance, and these kind of over-simplified comparisons are what PSA banks on. The VTF15h isn't using a great driver, but it is much superior to the XV15 because it doesn't need equalization to hold its response, it doesn't distort as badly when stressed, and it manages to stay cleaner at higher output levels than the XV15 can achieve, all while using less wattage. Look past simple CEA numbers, they only tell one part of the story with respect to performance.

I can see your points, but the way you started the thread just sounded like you were bashing PSA just like you claim they do to other companies. If anyone started a thread like that about any company, they would be sure to get upset responses from happy customers and others. There's always going to be much debate in the science and opinions of HT reproduction and equipment. In essence, your desire to confront an issue that may seem like misleading information is indeed a fair right for anyone, especially on public forums as they are a feed for information to be acquired and passed to others. You do seem to have understandable concerns in addressing specific details and a desire to know products in an accurate aspect and obviously you don't take inconsistencies as a laughing matter. It would be more advisable to take a more humble approach when addressing potential issues, if not you will come off in the wrong way. Just like you are not pleased with seeing companies bash others, some will see you as doing the same. In the end it will just be a never ending cycle of debating gone to arguing. I always respect all sides to a debate, after all that is how one gains knowledge by being open minded and not stubborn in ones ways. As far as PSA is concerned, they've preformed over the top in customer service and product delivery, for me personally and for many others. That has to count for something, anyone can nit pick a company or point out flaws but where the heart of the company is, is what truly matters.
Edited by Blackmambakila - 11/29/13 at 9:45pm
post #57 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I can see your points, but the way you started the thread just sounded like you were bashing PSA just like you claim they do to other companies. If anyone started a thread like that about any company, they would be sure to get upset responses from happy customers and others. There's always going to be much debate in the science and opinions of HT reproduction and equipment. In essence, your desire to confront an issue that may seem like misleading information is indeed a fair right for anyone, especially on public forums as they are a feed for information to be acquired and passed to others. You do seem to have understandable concerns in addressing specific details and a desire to know products in an accurate aspect and obviously you don't take inconsistencies as a laughing matter. It would be more advisable to take a more humble approach when addressing potential issues, if not you will come off in the wrong way. Just like you are not pleased with seeing companies bash others, some will see you as doing the same. In the end it will just be a never ending cycle of debating gone to arguing. I always respect all sides to a debate, after all that is how one gains knowledge by being open minded and not stubborn in ones ways. As far as PSA is concerned, they've preformed over the top in customer service and product delivery, for me personally and for many others. That has to count for something, anyone can knit pick a company or point out flaws but where the heart of the company is, is what truly matters.

^^^ well said.
post #58 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If I have a history here, don't just say it, prove it. I would not level that charge against you if I had nothing to back it up. If anyone had bothered to look, you would see that for awhile I was pretty enthusiastic about PSA's stuff when it was announced, especially when they released the first CEA numbers. This is a matter of record, you can go back and look it all up. But then the actual measurements came rolling in, it wasn't bad but it wasn't great either. And then I saw how it managed to accomplish relatively little with a large driver and 500 watt amp when I saw the actual naked driver being used, it made sense. Even then, I didn't really start objecting to PSA subs until their fans started ripping on all the competitors subs by pointing to a poor interpretation of CEA measurements. This is all a matter of public record, all of this stuff is still out there, it's easy to look up. Go look at my posts when their subs were first announced, go look at my posts when the first review came out at Audioholics, and look past that. Its easy to do if you limit searches by date, user, and word criteria. Don't just blithely accuse me of bias, there is a body of record to prove or disprove your assumptions, and it is just a finger touch away from you.
If all you care about is generalized CEA numbers, you have a good analysis. But just try comparing their compression, distortion, group delay, and waterfall decay times. This neatly illustrates my complaint about using CEA numbers alone to asses a sub's performance, and these kind of over-simplified comparisons are what PSA banks on. The VTF15h isn't using a great driver, but it is much superior to the XV15 because it doesn't need equalization to hold its response, it doesn't distort as badly when stressed, and it manages to stay cleaner at higher output levels than the XV15 can achieve, all while using less wattage. Look past simple CEA numbers, they only tell one part of the story with respect to performance.

Proof is in the pudding bud...anytIme somebody mentions PSA in any thread you jump in trying to push hsu or the dayton titanic kit claiming that psa uses cheap drivers. ricci's review clearly proves you exploit data sets making things sound far worse then they actually are. The vtf15 is a better sub but you are going way the **** overboard claiming its superior. in 1 port mode they both are similar when comparing compression, thd, group delay, yada yada...In 2 port it plays much cleaner at the sacrafice of deep extension. I question how much of that is actually audible....especially 2nd order harmonics.

And I have yet to see any PSA owner rip another product...last debate we got in was over the LFM-1 EX. The XV15 is a better sub and I dont really give a **** what you think. That does not mean I think the EX is bad as I am sure its a great sub. You just happen to own a pair of EX's and will do anything to try and prove PSA is a inferior product.

Yes you have Trolled Tom V clear back to his SVS days. However nobody will find those posts here because it was on another forum.

I can repect your opinion and you are entitled to like or dislike any subwoofer. Thats why different options exist...however you need to change your tact. I gurantee you push more people towards PSA then away with your approach. Hell you are probably Tom and Jim's number 1 salesman. keep it up sunshine your special!
Edited by basshead81 - 11/29/13 at 10:04pm
post #59 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yes you have Trolled Tom V clear back to his SVS days. However nobody will find those posts here because it was on another forum.

Par for the course, lots of accusations, but no evidence to back it up. I have had very little interaction with Tom, and certainly none prior even to this year and not on any other forum. If I have, link to it. If that is something someone told you, ask them when and where. I guarantee you it is a lie. I wasn't really an active poster on any audio forum until 2009. From what I can see, Tom left SVS in 2007.
post #60 of 197
Is it fair to say that PSA, HSU, SVS and Rythmik have each determined for their subs which engineering tradeoffs were needed to hit certain CEA numbers, at a price point with product reliability and producing the sonic signature they desired?

Is it also not correct to say that they all have good warranties backing their products and that there are very few, if any, quality issues that would automatically single one producer out as "much better than...or worse than" the competition?

Also, is it not correct that at a given price point, say $7-800, the competitors all sound great and that there is no "this is clearly the best sounding sub" that everyone would agree with ....room to room, music or HT, at low or high volume?

And therefore, is not highly likely, that if one chooses a sub from any if the above companies that is approximately the right output for the application, they will be pretty satisfied? And if they aren't, they can return it and try another option?

So, to my way of thinking, buy Outlaw if you want a great sub at a great price. Buy HSU if you want a great sub that is highly tunable. Buy SVS if you want a great sub but you think you may need 45 days to be sure and don't want to pay for the return. Buy PSA if you want a great sub that is made in America. Buy Rythmik if you want a great sub that has servo control. And finally, feel confident that you will get a great sub from any of these companies should you need to base your decision on size, shape, color, etc.

I guess my point is that the design and engineering aspects can be argued all day long...and in the end, they were conscious decisions by each of the companies that seem to have resulted in great products by all of the companies...and a high percentage of happy owners... and good return policies and resale value for the few that aren't.

And finally, unlike many companies, including some in audio, these guys all have great customer service, care about having satisfied customers and will continue to work with you after the sale!!
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