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Finally we have a simple way to rate and compare subwoofers! - Page 3

post #61 of 197
WoW! It takes almost three of my SB13's to equal one XS30? What the hell PSA? Wish you would've had those measurements up when I bought the Ultra. Now I'm wondering if I should send it back and get an XS30 and save money as well. wink.gif
post #62 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post

Is it fair to say that PSA, HSU, SVS and Rythmik have each determined for their subs which engineering tradeoffs were needed to hit certain CEA numbers, at a price point with product reliability and producing the sonic signature they desired?

Is it also not correct to say that they all have good warranties backing their products and that there are very few, if any, quality issues that would automatically single one producer out as "much better than...or worse than" the competition?

Also, is it not correct that at a given price point, say $7-800, the competitors all sound great and that there is no "this is clearly the best sounding sub" that everyone would agree with ....room to room, music or HT, at low or high volume?

And therefore, is not highly likely, that if one chooses a sub from any if the above companies that is approximately the right output for the application, they will be pretty satisfied? And if they aren't, they can return it and try another option?

So, to my way of thinking, buy Outlaw if you want a great sub at a great price. Buy HSU if you want a great sub that is highly tunable. Buy SVS if you want a great sub but you think you may need 45 days to be sure and don't want to pay for the return. Buy PSA if you want a great sub that is made in America. Buy Rythmik if you want a great sub that has servo control. And finally, feel confident that you will get a great sub from any of these companies should you need to base your decision on size, shape, color, etc.

I guess my point is that the design and engineering aspects can be argued all day long...and in the end, they were conscious decisions by each of the companies that seem to have resulted in great products by all of the companies...and a high percentage of happy owners... and good return policies and resale value for the few that aren't.

And finally, unlike many companies, including some in audio, these guys all have great customer service, care about having satisfied customers and will continue to work with you after the sale!!






Very well put

Shawn
post #63 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Par for the course, lots of accusations, but no evidence to back it up. I have had very little interaction with Tom, and certainly none prior even to this year and not on any other forum. If I have, link to it. If that is something someone told you, ask them when and where. I guarantee you it is a lie. I wasn't really an active poster on any audio forum until 2009. From what I can see, Tom left SVS in 2007.

I should clarify that it was more so SVS then directed at Tom. I never saved the links I found. However there are posts of you doing the same thing to SVS several years ago as you do PSA now. I am not going to spend a bunch of time looking all that up to prove a point. Google is any bodies friend that really wants to know. End of story not going to argue about this any longer.

ShadyJ, I do find a lot of your posts to be informative and I have nothing against your personally, but I do think your approach can be off at times. I am not saying I have set the best example at times either. Lets learn from these silly debates mutually and continue to share useful info on these forums. I believe all of these ID subs offer incredible performance vs price, lets leave it at that. I do not bag on any ID companies subs, neither should you. You think I look at CEA2010 output numbers specifically too much, and you are probably right. However I think you over analyze certain data sets on specific subwoofers to try and make them look bad. The bottom line is when you place a subwoofer in room everything will change from 2m rms max burst testing. After months of using REW I can tell you my subs do not show a frequency hump that you exploit routinely, THD is relatively low, and they extend quite a bit deeper then what data-bass shows. Its obvious Ricci takes this into consideration when you read his reviews of various subwoofers. Remember everything looks great on paper, but its what sounds good to your ear that really matters. It would be nice to have the ability to hear all of these subs in the same room...since that is not really possible we have to rely on data that's available, but the data must not be used as a end all approach to forming an opinion.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving,

BH smile.gif
post #64 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I should clarify that it was more so SVS then directed at Tom. I never saved the links I found. However there are posts of you doing the same thing to SVS several years ago as you do PSA now. I am not going to spend a bunch of time looking all that up to prove a point. Google is any bodies friend that really wants to know. End of story not going to argue about this any longer.

ShadyJ, I do find a lot of your posts to be informative and I have nothing against your personally, but I do think your approach can be off at times. I am not saying I have set the best example at times either. Lets learn from these silly debates mutually and continue to share useful info on these forums. I believe all of these ID subs offer incredible performance vs price, lets leave it at that. I do not bag on any ID companies subs, neither should you. You think I look at CEA2010 output numbers specifically too much, and you are probably right. However I think you over analyze certain data sets on specific subwoofers to try and make them look bad. The bottom line is when you place a subwoofer in room everything will change from 2m rms max burst testing. After months of using REW I can tell you my subs do not show a frequency hump that you exploit routinely, THD is relatively low, and they extend quite a bit deeper then what data-bass shows. Its obvious Ricci takes this into consideration when you read his reviews of various subwoofers. Remember everything looks great on paper, but its what sounds good to your ear that really matters. It would be nice to have the ability to hear all of these subs in the same room...since that is not really possible we have to rely on data that's available, but the data must not be used as a end all approach to forming an opinion.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving,

BH smile.gif
I am curios Basshead, has he ripped the Triax yet?
post #65 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I should clarify that it was more so SVS then directed at Tom. I never saved the links I found. However there are posts of you doing the same thing to SVS several years ago as you do PSA now. I am not going to spend a bunch of time looking all that up to prove a point. Google is any bodies friend that really wants to know. End of story not going to argue about this any longer.

ShadyJ, I do find a lot of your posts to be informative and I have nothing against your personally, but I do think your approach can be off at times. I am not saying I have set the best example at times either. Lets learn from these silly debates mutually and continue to share useful info on these forums. I believe all of these ID subs offer incredible performance vs price, lets leave it at that. I do not bag on any ID companies subs, neither should you. You think I look at CEA2010 output numbers specifically too much, and you are probably right. However I think you over analyze certain data sets on specific subwoofers to try and make them look bad. The bottom line is when you place a subwoofer in room everything will change from 2m rms max burst testing. After months of using REW I can tell you my subs do not show a frequency hump that you exploit routinely, THD is relatively low, and they extend quite a bit deeper then what data-bass shows. Its obvious Ricci takes this into consideration when you read his reviews of various subwoofers. Remember everything looks great on paper, but its what sounds good to your ear that really matters. It would be nice to have the ability to hear all of these subs in the same room...since that is not really possible we have to rely on data that's available, but the data must not be used as a end all approach to forming an opinion.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving,

BH smile.gif

+1 +2 +3 NICE post bass cool.gif
post #66 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I am curios Basshead, has he ripped the Triax yet?

Lol, if someone rips on the Triax then I would be insanely curious to know what the other subwoofer that would be better is and for the same price. I've searched everywhere online and seen so many powered subwoofer systems that dwarf in comparison to its specs and ability and even those prices are immensely higher! It seems that not only does PSA offer great customer service but also that their prices for their products verse what you get for your money makes them a winning purchase. there's always speculation to what's better and what's not good, But after actually owning one of their products and experiencing the quality of a beautiful subwoofer at work, I just don't see a hidden agenda other than selling good products at a more than fair price. Atleast those that own their products know this to be true smile.gif
post #67 of 197

Great posts basehead and Rn2013, very well said. Great job taking the high road and being positive. Both posts show a lot of class. 

 

It has become very obvious in the past week that arguing over subwoofers is a pointless exercise of futility. The bottom line is that anyone who owns any of these subs and likes them will never be swayed by anyone else's data points. So it's pointless to argue.

 

The most useful thing is for people to speak up about what they like about their subs and for others to respect what they share instead of bashing their product, which of course only leads to the ones who own the product to get defensive. Then its a slippery slope into petty arguing again. 

 

I for one bought my XV15 based only on people's recommendation and I really appreciate the information they provided (basshead and reefdvr to name just a few). I also appreciated the way they were positive about subs from the other ID companies. I felt that no one was being overly biased and that made me even more comfortable with their recommendations for the XV15 because they were being real about all the subs (Hsu, SVS, PAS, Outlaw and Rythmik). This made me very confident that no matter which one I purchased I would probably be very happy. And if I wasn't, things would be okay because of the excellent CS of all of those companies. 

 

So once again, thanks guys for the great posts. :)

post #68 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If I have an axe to grind and all my 'bashings' are biased, please point to specific examples where I am being unfair. Please just link to a single instance, just one. Oh that's right, that would take effort, nevermind. It's easier just to write me off as biased and block me so you don't actually have to address any of my arguments. After all, how dare I criticize a product that you own! The nerve of some people!

Any time actual data is used and properly analyzed in context and/or specsmanship is exposed for what it is, the response is invariably; axes, agendas and personal dislikes accusations, oh my.

Thanks to Shady for exposing the specsmanship and thanks to Luke for putting it into context with the actual measured data.

There is no science to dispute here.



The Hsu retains its FR when burst tested, the PSA does not. That's because, as Luke correctly pointed out, the PSA uses EQ to pull down the inductance hump, which is exposed on the burst results graph.

So, ironically, the method employed to arrive at the numbers used to show a so-called better performance exposes the weakness in the design.

Whether or not anyone has a dull axe or feels either sub is more betterer is irrelevant.

Shady; nice catch, Luke; nice explanation. The rest of you, stop whining. cool.gif
post #69 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Any time actual data is used and properly analyzed in context and/or specsmanship is exposed for what it is, the response is invariably; axes, agendas and personal dislikes accusations, oh my.

Thanks to Shady for exposing the specsmanship and thanks to Luke for putting it into context with the actual measured data.

There is no science to dispute here.



The Hsu retains its FR when burst tested, the PSA does not. That's because, as Luke correctly pointed out, the PSA uses EQ to pull down the inductance hump, which is exposed on the burst results graph.

So, ironically, the method employed to arrive at the numbers used to show a so-called better performance exposes the weakness in the design.

Whether or not anyone has a dull axe or feels either sub is more betterer is irrelevant.

Shady; nice catch, Luke; nice explanation. The rest of you, stop whining. cool.gif

I agree the VTF-15 is a better sub. like I said when you put it in a room (atleast mine) the frequency response looks nothing like that. Luke and I have exchanged pm's and we both agreed there is nothing wrong with dsp.

here is a normal sweep vs max spl when I had dual xv15's with no eq.




aside from a massive peak(i added a third xv15 to knock it down), I see no 50hz hump.


Edited by basshead81 - 11/30/13 at 4:33pm
post #70 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

+1 +2 +3 NICE post bass cool.gif
Thanks smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I am curios Basshead, has he ripped the Triax yet?
Not yet that I have seen...I dont think he will until its been tested by Ricci.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Lol, if someone rips on the Triax then I would be insanely curious to know what the other subwoofer that would be better is and for the same price. I've searched everywhere online and seen so many powered subwoofer systems that dwarf in comparison to its specs and ability and even those prices are immensely higher! It seems that not only does PSA offer great customer service but also that their prices for their products verse what you get for your money makes them a winning purchase. there's always speculation to what's better and what's not good, But after actually owning one of their products and experiencing the quality of a beautiful subwoofer at work, I just don't see a hidden agenda other than selling good products at a more than fair price. Atleast those that own their products know this to be true smile.gif

I doubt anybody will rip on the Triax...it is a quality piece utilizing some amazing components. Definately some next level ish compared to the XS or XV subs.
post #71 of 197
Quote:
I doubt anybody will rip on the Triax...it is a quality piece utilizing some amazing components. Definately some next level ish compared to the XS or XV subs.

It will get ripped on I assure you bass. There is no way around it imo..
post #72 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I believe all of these ID subs offer incredible performance vs price, lets leave it at that. I do not bag on any ID companies subs, neither should you. You think I look at CEA2010 output numbers specifically too much, and you are probably right. However I think you over analyze certain data sets on specific subwoofers to try and make them look bad.

I appreciate your diplomacy, but lets look at what prompted this thread. It was one ID sub company ripping on several others all in a single graphic, and what's worse is they are using badly distorted data to do it; they can not handle a fair fight. You yourself expressed disdain about their tactic. I am all for ending sub bashing, but it only ever comes to that when someone uses over-simplified CEA data to promote one sub over another, and I like to point to other metrics which bring more nuance to the comparison. Furthermore, stopping all the bashing would be nice thing to be sure, but not at the expense of a candid assessment of these systems. I will take heated debates over tippy-toeing around the actual performance measurements anyday, and I think you might agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

So, ironically, the method employed to arrive at the numbers used to show a so-called better performance exposes the weakness in the design.

I'm glad someone else finally sees this. Also, if you will look, I think the long term output vs short term bursts really expose the Power X driver weakness. No other system on data-bass seems to have quite that disparity. The Power X driver can do a 10 yard dash, but it is no marathon runner, it runs out of breath pretty quick. Thermal compression maybe? If you want to see something shocking, compare the long term max output measurements of the XV15 and the VTF15h in sealed mode. That is pretty damning for anyone who claims their drivers are somehow on the same level- and don't forget the XV15 has more amp power to work with!
post #73 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

It will get ripped on I assure you bass. There is no way around it imo..

I'm willing to bet that any person that rips on the Triax will just be another case of where they never actually seen or heard one. Then they'll base their opinions on numbers and say that their calculator isn't adding up right lol! It seems simple, why don't people just.........

1# research and gather information on the design and specs of the product all the way to the level of customer service and name of the company

2# read reviews and feedback from real people and unbiased evaluations

3# experience the product first hand

You add that together and you can get an accurate and logical opinion. Any person lacking those above would be giving a theory and would not have a solid foundation to stand on. Even science is not always right, how many times do things happen that people can't explain? That's because humans have errors and numbers are made by humans which means they can't always be accurate. Then there's other factors that come into play, to build a case strong case one must have all ends covered. It's common knowledge that even the best sub on paper can sound like garbage, it has to be dialed and integrated to each particular situation and individuals needs and taste in order to serve a purpose. And then there's the budget aspect, a value could be established from what one is actually recieving with the $ they're spending compared to other choices of the same price range. Then there's different ways and specs companies test and advertise. Then who's to say that the person in question that's testing a product is even doing it right. It just keeps going on....... One of my favorite sayings is, " if you have haters then your doing something right " after all if a company was so bad then what's to worry about? Sounds like when people feel insecure if you ask me biggrin.gif
post #74 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I'm willing to bet that any person that rips on the Triax will just.....

.....have to deal with Blackmambakila. tongue.gif
post #75 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

.....have to deal with Blackmambakila. tongue.gif

Haha neah my goal in life nowadays is just to find peace, although the Triax reminds me of my younger days, new to the world and just having a blast!!!
post #76 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I agree the VTF-15 is a better sub. like I said when you put it in a room (atleast mine) the frequency response looks nothing like that. Luke and I have exchanged pm's and we both agreed there is nothing wrong with dsp.

here is a normal sweep vs max spl when I had dual xv15's with no eq.




aside from a massive peak(i added a third xv15 to knock it down), I see no 50hz hump.


I've been here for a while. I've been in on discussions for what tests to perform, etc. We've always preferred data to 'wow, my sub is awesome!' I sure hope that's OK, but don't really care either way in the end. smile.gif

Although DSP can easily be (and has been by those who understand how it works in this app) argued against when a conversion from analog to digital and back to analog before/after DSP through what is an obviously basic set of converters with no specs available is not a good thing, no one has said that in this thread. No one has said anything about DSP being good bad or otherwise.

If your suggestion is that what Josh's measurements show is insignificant, you'd be mistaken.

When you have multiple subs in a room with an obviously non-calibrated measurement rig the results can be (and usually are) all over the map. How a sine sweep differs from the shaped tone bursts and actual program is for another thread. I'm glad you're happy with your 3 ported subs and the result in your room with the program source you prefer. But, that has nothing to do with what Shady has said.

My motivation for posting here is that I have an axe to grind with those who tell anyone who brings up unpleasant facts about the sub they currently worship that they have an axe to grind.

Dispute the facts presented and keep the childish accusations out of it. That's most probably never gonna happen, unfortunately for those who look for actual information on these boards but don't post.
post #77 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Dispute the facts presented and keep the childish accusations out of it. That's most probably never gonna happen, unfortunately for those who look for actual information on these boards but don't post.

The childishness started with the initial post.

If shady had any tact I don't think this would have turned into what it has.
post #78 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Dispute the facts presented and keep the childish accusations out of it. That's most probably never gonna happen, unfortunately for those who look for actual information on these boards but don't post.

The childishness started with the initial post.

If shady had any tact I don't think this would have turned into what it has.

Not exactly, the psa "charts" are wrong. If they were correct then this would be a non-issue. imho
post #79 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

Not exactly, the psa "charts" are wrong. If they were correct then this would be a non-issue. imho

There is nothing wrong with pointing out the problems he sees with the charts, it is the way he did it. He was trying to push buttons and succeeded. Very childish and everyone followed suit.
post #80 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I've been here for a while. I've been in on discussions for what tests to perform, etc. We've always preferred data to 'wow, my sub is awesome!' I sure hope that's OK, but don't really care either way in the end. smile.gif

Although DSP can easily be (and has been by those who understand how it works in this app) argued against when a conversion from analog to digital and back to analog before/after DSP through what is an obviously basic set of converters with no specs available is not a good thing, no one has said that in this thread. No one has said anything about DSP being good bad or otherwise.

If your suggestion is that what Josh's measurements show is insignificant, you'd be mistaken.

When you have multiple subs in a room with an obviously non-calibrated measurement rig the results can be (and usually are) all over the map. How a sine sweep differs from the shaped tone bursts and actual program is for another thread. I'm glad you're happy with your 3 ported subs and the result in your room with the program source you prefer. But, that has nothing to do with what Shady has said.

My motivation for posting here is that I have an axe to grind with those who tell anyone who brings up unpleasant facts about the sub they currently worship that they have an axe to grind.

Dispute the facts presented and keep the childish accusations out of it. That's most probably never gonna happen, unfortunately for those who look for actual information on these boards but don't post.

I would think that in the price range of the subs that we are talking about there will ALWAYS be some kind of compromise in performance and design. I guess it's one of those "pick your poison" type scenario. I've looked at the subs you're building/selling bossobass and they look pretty amazing, but do you feel you could build a better sub then what PSA is build for the same money or less without running into the same type of compromises?
post #81 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I would think that in the price range of the subs that we are talking about there will ALWAYS be some kind of compromise in performance and design. I guess it's one of those "pick your poison" type scenario. I've looked at the subs you're building/selling bossobass and they look pretty amazing, but do you feel you could build a better sub then what PSA is build for the same money or less without running into the same type of compromises?

You have a valid point. I just see it from a more experienced and different perspective than most here do.

I never had any desire to build a sub that doesn't get the job done. Makes no sense. If the price is everything, then people should have to post the total $ they've spent over the years in upgrading from the first bang-for-buck sub they were happy with for 10 minutes. $800 doesn't buy a good DAC let alone a HT subwoofer system. One poster in this thread has said he bought 3 of them. Others have bought more. Not exactly a low price range, IMO. And, how many of them will toss those and buy the next new hot item? When will they be finished spending down that road and what will have been their final outlay of cash and what will they have ended up with?

I've never been interested in throw away solutions, but that's just me, and… not relevant to the discussion, IMO.
post #82 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

You have a valid point. I just see it from a more experienced and different perspective than most here do.

I never had any desire to build a sub that doesn't get the job done. Makes no sense. If the price is everything, then people should have to post the total $ they've spent over the years in upgrading from the first bang-for-buck sub they were happy with for 10 minutes. $800 doesn't buy a good DAC let alone a HT subwoofer system. One poster in this thread has said he bought 3 of them. Others have bought more. Not exactly a low price range, IMO. And, how many of them will toss those and buy the next new hot item? When will they be finished spending down that road and what will have been their final outlay of cash and what will they have ended up with?

I've never been interested in throw away solutions, but that's just me, and… not relevant to the discussion, IMO.

Bossobass - wow, I just checked out your web page. Your setup, attention to detail, and artistry is very impressive. While reading your website the thought came to mind, "if you have to ask you can't afford it"

I don't own a PSA product, but isn't referring to them as throw away solutions a bit harsh? Many on here save for a long time and get the best they can afford. They keep their subs until something irrepairable fails. That may be why shadyJ takes such umbrage with the advertising tactics. Using it to part people with their hard earned money on what he sees as deceptive irritates him. Especially when they have such fantastic word of mouth reviews and loyal customers based on wonderful service.
post #83 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

You have a valid point. I just see it from a more experienced and different perspective than most here do.

I never had any desire to build a sub that doesn't get the job done. Makes no sense. If the price is everything, then people should have to post the total $ they've spent over the years in upgrading from the first bang-for-buck sub they were happy with for 10 minutes. $800 doesn't buy a good DAC let alone a HT subwoofer system. One poster in this thread has said he bought 3 of them. Others have bought more. Not exactly a low price range, IMO. And, how many of them will toss those and buy the next new hot item? When will they be finished spending down that road and what will have been their final outlay of cash and what will they have ended up with?

I've never been interested in throw away solutions, but that's just me, and… not relevant to the discussion, IMO.

True but there's a difference between purposes of subwoofer setups. There's many people here that buy subwoofer designs that go for temporary or casual non dedicated built rooms. Those benefit from the selection of powered subwoofers being that of convenience, time, money, size, decor, ect. The average person may have an entry level styled setup and can benefit from a subwoofer that is not of highest standards or specs. A lot of them keep the same equipment for years and have no need to have nuclear capabilities, as I would one day like lol. Then there's those that have dedicated room build for an over the top home theater build. Off course in that category one would benefit from choosing the best bang for their buck for the budget on each and every piece of equipment. So it depends on the persons goals, purpose, taste, budget, and level of setup they are building. I actually love the idea of having multiple subs being custom built and get a real experience but in reality just like most I don't have a dedicated room so it would be pointless for now nor the time to spend because of work schedule so buying something like a Triax gives me just what I need to have the average guest or family member blown away. Majority of consumers fulfill their needs with products from companies such as PSA and many others. Most will never care for all the technicalities involved nor need to know. Others wish to expand their knowledge and turn to HT as a hobby. I think HT setups are for enjoyment and fun, it even brings families and people together for movie nights and entertains others while they're home from work or away from the chaos or stress from our daily lives. To me it's just for fun just like fixing up a car, you can pay to have it done or learn and do it yourself, but every person has different financial states and tastes.
post #84 of 197
Also, what a great position for us as consumers. So many quality ID companies. HSU, PSA, Rythmik, SVS, Seaton, JTR and more custom jobs like Funk and Bossobass.

Pretty cool times.
post #85 of 197
Quote:
I've never been interested in throw away solutions, but that's just me, and… not relevant to the discussion, IMO.


Yeah but Bosso you have or should (if you choose) cut a guy some slack in the process of getting there if that’s indeed where he decides to go?? I know I won’t consider many subs/drivers (like others) I have in the past and have been building/a little ID buying for years (sometimes with your help) but it was a process none the same. Admittedly it would have been nice to hop-skip to my view today, but in a sense me being me, I had to pay to get there. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not taking things personally, but you must realize jumping in from the start to what we’re talking about is quite a step albeit the mo$t prudent, fulfilling and gratifying way to go imo. Some can’t, ($$) some won’t (DIY) and some don’t have the desire, and that’s all good too. cool.gif
Edited by steve nn - 12/1/13 at 3:45am
post #86 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

Also, what a great position for us as consumers. So many quality ID companies. HSU, PSA, Rythmik, SVS, Seaton, JTR and more custom jobs like Funk and Bossobass.

Pretty cool times.

I agree and off course to the companies there will be competition. I know what it's like to be mislead when buying something. I went through 4 receivers this year because I didn't know that they mislead on the packages with their specs they advertised. Each time I bought another one It would fail in sound quality and preformance for my particular goals. Then the salesman sometimes are misleading or not knowledgable, so that causes frustration for people new to the subject such as myself. Working 100 hours plus makes it difficult to obtain all the knowledge needed for a HT setup and as I learned I payed for initial mistakes. My personal experience with PSA started from wanting to upgrade my bass in my setup. I heard a lot of positive feedback from members online of the PSA company. When I called Tom asked the size and design of my room, what gear I had currently in my setup, and what my goals were. He told me that although my subwoofer did have good output, that it lacked in quality and power in the lower ranges. He said that with a Triax I would be pleased and there was no pressure. I called a few days later and made a preorder for one. The wait sucked but you know what happened in the end? He was right about the comparison with my previous subwoofer and I was pleased. His professional advice for my given situation was dead on. Isn't that how a purchase should begin and end? Honest, friendly service and a happy customer? I wish everything thing I bought went this way but atleast PSA gave me a win in my book. In the future when I do a dedicated build, I will go about everything differently. As for my current, temporary setup they def got me to where I wanted. There are many great companies to choose from, I just know that from personal experience that PSA is one of them.
post #87 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I never had any desire to build a sub that doesn't get the job done.

The above is not being fair to us fiscal mortals.

I've settled on what I consider to be the best I can afford. And based on available monies, my choice will "...get the job done."

The point, unqualified comments such as "...get the job done." are as subjective as saying, we must go to the moon.

Addressing a posted comment, as monies become available, if measurements show a need for adding an additional subwoofer, I will. I have no intention of upgrading to the next level of available subwoofers.

The point, high rollers need to give us "proles," a break.
post #88 of 197
I'm going to be totally honest here....reading through some of these discussion here has gotten me a bit nervous. I agree, how people portray Tom or PSA customer service for that matter as first class. However....all these discussions about the measurements @ data-bass and the singling out of the power x driver found in the xv15 as not very linear and compression issues corrected by means of DSP to correct those shortcomings...have me a bit worried.

I know, I'm not buying the xv15 but rather the xs30. I know some advantages exist with dual opposed technology. They're primarily more efficient and usually conform to smaller enclosures. Having the added(second) driver helps absorb vibration usually caused by residual air build inside the sub allowing it to escape via their respective cones. Canceling out some of these sound waves help smooth out the in-room response providing an overall tighter sound or cleaner output in a manor of speaking.

As I told Tom, my past sub(sold it) used an AE av12 driver in a ported design...the driver itself had a huge motor structure and measured extremely well. The one thing I really like about it was how structured it sounded in the upper bass bands...very clean & articulate. The xs30 is about the same size and it should compare favorably to it... around its tuning point (iirc Nate told me its ~21hz) but with the dual 15" & larger amp the XS30 should have a significant edge above 32 & below tune as Tom explained and why I decided on the ordering one. But some of these more recent posters like (Bosso) make me think I now gone backwards in a sense and not forward if I'm looking to upgrade my sub in a few years...frown.gif

For the record....when building a sub it comes down to 2 things box & driver....I hope, I made the right decision because once you factor in the added cost of the veneer, freight, exchange rate & HST 13% tax....the cost quickly get up there...having to pay return shipping would be outta pocket and very expensive because I know how much it cost to ship it here. This was suppose to be my last sub/or subs?

Any thoughts...I'd appreciate it....thanks...Bill...confused.gif
Edited by Billy p - 12/1/13 at 4:40am
post #89 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

Any thoughts...I'd appreciate it....thanks...Bill

Like you, I have made a subwoofer choice and there's no looking back as there's no point in doing so. Unless sounding like a Harpy, buy, enjoy and put another Blu-ray in the tray as there's no reason to fault the XS30.

A bit of philosophy that in the form of a check, one can take to any bank and cash, every single working day of the week: The degree of one's criticism is directly proportional to the level of their insecurity.

The point, everybody can be critical of every subwoofer under production today. A bit of criticism is reasonable. A lot of criticism exposes the insecurities or motives of the individual doing the criticizing. I have but one criticism of the XS30 and that's output. OTOH, that's the nature of a sealed subwoofer. If someone wants better sound reproduction characteristics than what the XS30 offers, wants to be overly critical of the XS30 or wants to worry about how one company advertises their wares over another, they can pony up the Benjamins.
post #90 of 197
By now everyone should know that VTF-15H is a better sub than VX-15 as it should due to the former's higher price tag. Not only does VTF-15H have more output at 20Hz, it is also cleaner than VX-15.

I think one of the reasons VX-15 is deemed more favorably than Hsu Research VTF-15H is the Audioholic's reviews.

The reviewer of VX-15 pointed out that it can hold it's own @ 15Hz, it's driver is appropriate for its price point. The reviewer provided graphs but did not point out that the waterfall decay, long tern power compression, long term power compression magnitude and THD falls short against other ID offerings in similar price point. On the other hand, the reviewer of Hsu VTF-15H almost said "don't expect too much under 30Hz" without providing the waterfall decay, long tern power compression, long term power compression magnitude and THD graphs.

The questions is, is VX-15's short comings audible at a regular listening level of 65 dB?
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