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Erskine Group not the best choice for a sub 100k home theatre... - Page 2

post #31 of 227
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

The fans and the cooling path used in projector designs are a LOT quieter than a PC case fan... My JVC (pictured above - thanks for the reference BIG!) can only be heard if the room is silent, and even then it's barely audible from the seats under it. The specs put it at ~22db (my meter doesn't go down that low).
A "larger" projector to throw more light from higher lamp modes will make more noise. If the PJ was hung closer, you may not be fighting the noise as the projector requirements become easier to meet...

Jeff

that is a good point - I really like your theatre, exact layout we wanted to achieve. Our ceiling is designed as a slightly simpler single coffer? (not sure that is the correct term?) with the lowered bulkheads just around the sides of the room. i think the projector would stand out more than in your design. Again, it's completely a personal choice and may be one i have to go with due to budget constraints!
post #32 of 227
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

You have a screen that is 10'2" in a 13 ft wide room, I've seen wider, click Curve Frenzy in my signature.

or http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489162/home-theater-of-the-month-vikgraos-fortress-of-solitude/0_40

thats a great looking theatre! how were those seats - they are the ones i had planned to use for our room? I also really like the IMG Norway chairs, but they are more than double the price!
post #33 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by mads1 View Post

that is a good point - I really like your theatre, exact layout we wanted to achieve.

Thanks!
Quote:
Again, it's completely a personal choice and may be one i have to go with due to budget constraints!

Just wanted to make sure you were making that choice for aesthetic reasons and not "performance" ones (fan noise). As budgetary trade-offs go, hiding the projector was well below my cut line compared to items like screen masking, for example...

Jeff
post #34 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

A 16:9 image shown on 2.35 screen leaves black bars (blank screen with nothing shining on it) on the left and right of the screen, you need to use the zoom feature (Image size) to get it to fit on the screen and the problem is that increases the Throw ratio. In your case a 122 inch wide 2.35 format screen yields would yield a pretty small 91 inch wide 16:9 image. The throw ratio would be a 3.4 and only projectors with optional long throw lenses can do it. $$$

In your case stick with the 16:9.
I went an unconventional route of constant image size I made my DYI Seymour Center Stage XD screen 2.0:1 so over all it is 126"x65" that gives me a
126"x52" 2.40:1 with 136" diag, 6 1/2" bars top and bottom
126"x54" 2.35:1 with 137" diag,
120"x65" 1.85:1 with 137" diag, (man this size make it like being there)
116"x65" 16x9 with 133" diag. 5" bars on both sides
So in the way the best of both worlds If I would have done a 2.40:1 screen 126" wide my 16x9 size would have been 92"x52" with 106" diag. If I would have done 16X9 65" tall my 2.40:1 would have been 116"x48" 126" diag.
Edited by cw5billwade - 12/10/13 at 12:46pm
post #35 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Thanks!
Just wanted to make sure you were making that choice for aesthetic reasons and not "performance" ones (fan noise). As budgetary trade-offs go, hiding the projector was well below my cut line compared to items like screen masking, for example...

Jeff
I agree Jeff my projector is fine mounted slightly behind the 2nd row of seats. Fan noise is not an issue when movie is playing. In D cinema with fan in eco mode you can barely hear it even when movie is not playing standing under the projector. Even in normal mode with fan speed normal it is not loud and disappears when the movie starts.
Edited by cw5billwade - 12/10/13 at 12:45pm
post #36 of 227
With the size screens we use, seating distance makes a big difference - if you'd moved your seating closer so that you replicated your current seating distance to screen height ratio with the scope screen, you could have scope looking even bigger than it does now.

For example, your screen is 65 ins tall and lets say you sit 16.25 feet away, that;s a ratio of 3 to 1. If you made your 2.35 screen 126 x 54 and sat 2.75 feet feet closer (13.5 feet away), the 16:9 image would look as big as it does now (like being there because it occupied the same visual space on your retina), but your 2.35 would look even wider than it does now because the horizontal viewing angle has increased.

Of course, if you can't move your seating, then it's not going to work.

Gary
post #37 of 227
Thread Starter 
thanks guys - i will probably stick with a 16:9 screen as there is plenty of height (especially when i push back the projector out of the room) and were are pretty much at max width.I do need to have access to the back of the screen as the house breaker boards are on the back wall. a wall to wall screen would complicate the access, where as designed i think there is room to get round the screen.

Hoping to have my contractor on site and start construction by the end of the week.
post #38 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by mads1 View Post

I do need to have access to the back of the screen as the house breaker boards are on the back wall. a wall to wall screen would complicate the access, where as designed i think there is room to get round the screen. .

Uh, yeah - if the electrical panel is behind the screen, you really need to account for access to the panel. A hinged panel off to the side or something to allow quick access. And I'm not going to dive into the code / inspector issues with concealing it (as long as the family members know how to access it, you pass my test).
post #39 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

As you picked up the phone to dial that first time did you realize you were staring down the rabbit hole?
Based on this sentence from your first post,
"This is a dedicated theater but we were just wanting a decent family fun room to watch occasional movies in (both for kids and adults)"
I would say you called the wrong dude.
Well put. I'll be interested to watch this thing unfold. Something tells me that firm $30K equipment budget will be stretched out in a really bad way.
post #40 of 227
Just to throw my 2 cents in... I agree wholeheartedly that you don't need Creston with how good Roomie Remote and iRule are. That should save a ton of budget. Do look very hard at Seaton and JTR designs. The Sony 1000 has a pretty long throw.. not sure offhand what it is. Emotiva makes great amps. . Maybe even a great processor in the upcoming XMC1 that is due in Feb. But otherwise there are many good receivers or pre amps that get the job done for not too much money. Based on what I paid, I would expect floor to ceiling Quest treatments like I see on that design to run you 6-8k. Way overpriced for what they are in my opinion. Very little science or documents out there to back up that they are doing anything revolutionary. But they are thin profile and you will need that. GIK acoustic panels are a steal comparatively, but you need 4-6 inches off your wall for their good stuff, vs 2-3 inches for Quest. I assume you are hiding all the panels behind fabric track? That is going to run you probably 2k itself.
post #41 of 227
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

As you picked up the phone to dial that first time did you realize you were staring down the rabbit hole?
Based on this sentence from your first post,
"This is a dedicated theater but we were just wanting a decent family fun room to watch occasional movies in (both for kids and adults)"
I would say you called the wrong dude.

thanks - with hindsight i would be inclined to agree!! still, construction element now contracted and will start in early Jan. Since erskine wont basically give any further helpful or constructive advice other than telling me that what they have drawn/spec'd is what they recommend. We will just take if from here and make it into what i wanted. I have never had such an experience of working with a 'professional' firm and i build real estate for a living!

we will leave the large area to the rear of the theatre empty for now (contractors will build a temporary bar to set behind the second row of seats) so at least that space serves some function.

Anyway i think the principles of the room are right - now for best spending the budget! my intention is to move the projector hushbox to behind the back wall. Equipment list i am trying to economise so far i have shortlisted the following (i am looking at both used/b-stock/refurbished etc equipment to keep the cost down, and hopefully to make space for the sony vw1000es projector:
3 x Emotiva XPA-3 amps for LCR, and surrounds & Rear
1 x Emotiva XPA-2 for subs (or do i need 2 x mono amps for subs)
Denon or Marantz 7.1 4k/3D pre-amp (model tbc)
3D projector either from JVC (if i am pressed for budget) or Sony if i am feeling generous!
Triad bronze inwall surrounds and rears
Triad bronze/6 inwall sub for balancing
JTR Noesis 228's for LCR.
SUB's TBC - thinking some JBL 18" or home made boxes.. (would the amp be up to the job for that?)
Harmony or similar remote
Seymour XD 122" wide curved screen
GIK acoustic treatments - probably hidden behind fabric walls (GIK recommended a different design for the acoustic treatments so will just amend to suit their products)

Out of principle i will not buy Procella or Quest as they are Erskine owned/ promoted products and feel like i have already paid my dues to them.

I was informed by Dennis that posting any of their plans or drawings was a breach of copyright so cant put any of those images up on here.

Thanks all for your advice and input on what was supposed to be a fun / pleasurable project which Erskine Group managed to turn into the opposite. I will start a new thread when the work starts..

hopefully the above will result in a nice looking room that will sound ok and can be enjoyed by our family.... since that was all i wanted! i can see an XboxOne being added to the list too!
post #42 of 227
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Just to throw my 2 cents in... I agree wholeheartedly that you don't need Creston with how good Roomie Remote and iRule are. That should save a ton of budget. Do look very hard at Seaton and JTR designs. The Sony 1000 has a pretty long throw.. not sure offhand what it is. Emotiva makes great amps. . Maybe even a great processor in the upcoming XMC1 that is due in Feb. But otherwise there are many good receivers or pre amps that get the job done for not too much money. Based on what I paid, I would expect floor to ceiling Quest treatments like I see on that design to run you 6-8k. Way overpriced for what they are in my opinion. Very little science or documents out there to back up that they are doing anything revolutionary. But they are thin profile and you will need that. GIK acoustic panels are a steal comparatively, but you need 4-6 inches off your wall for their good stuff, vs 2-3 inches for Quest. I assume you are hiding all the panels behind fabric track? That is going to run you probably 2k itself.

thanks - pretty much spot on!

Mads
post #43 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by mads1 View Post

Thanks all for your advice and input on what was supposed to be a fun / pleasurable project which Erskine Group managed to turn into the opposite. I will start a new thread when the work starts.

Wow, that's quite an unfortunate turn of events! eek.gif The Erskine Group definitely has quite the reputation on these forums, too, so you'd be well within your rights to think that everything would go great.

I guess the moral of the story is to really know what you need before hiring the expensive pros. The closest I've come to this was when I paid a structural engineer to look over a plan of mine; paid a healthy chunk of money; and then ended up not going with that plan at all in the end, anyway. All of that money could have been saved had I just waited until I was absolutely certain what I wanted before investing the money.
post #44 of 227
Curved screens are sexy. You only really need it with the projectors you listed if you add an anamorphic lens which may introduce some pin cushion effect at short throw distances. At long throw the pin cushion is minimal. Having said that some guys just like the look and do it. It may cause a little image distortion with the center of the image a little taller which will fall off on the velvet border and you won't notice it. Curve Frenzy in my signature has the Seymour curved screen.

Sorry to hear that your relationship with the Erskine Group failed to hit the mark addressing your needs. It is a first class design. with a matching price tag to build and equip.
Edited by BIGmouthinDC - 12/18/13 at 6:56pm
post #45 of 227
I've had a similar experience in terms of what you want your finished product to be versus the cost it is to obtain via professional firms. Not Erksine group specifically but generally.

I was tempted to take a peak with the Erksine group but because I did not have serious money, I tucked my tail between my legs and passed. I soon found out, that the experience is local as well.

I'm finishing my project now to what I wanted. Read the forums like crazy. And I can say that I would have spent easily double if I had gone the all pro route. Instead I struggled on my own and with the help of flexible GC and came out with a decent media room/theatre experience.

It's not perfect by far but it was within my budget(I went over by ~40k) and I'm happy so far with the result.
post #46 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by mads1 View Post

thanks - with hindsight i would be inclined to agree!! still, construction element now contracted and will start in early Jan. Since erskine wont basically give any further helpful or constructive advice other than telling me that what they have drawn/spec'd is what they recommend. We will just take if from here and make it into what i wanted. I have never had such an experience of working with a 'professional' firm and i build real estate for a living!

we will leave the large area to the rear of the theatre empty for now (contractors will build a temporary bar to set behind the second row of seats) so at least that space serves some function.

Anyway i think the principles of the room are right - now for best spending the budget! my intention is to move the projector hushbox to behind the back wall. Equipment list i am trying to economise so far i have shortlisted the following (i am looking at both used/b-stock/refurbished etc equipment to keep the cost down, and hopefully to make space for the sony vw1000es projector:
3 x Emotiva XPA-3 amps for LCR, and surrounds & Rear
1 x Emotiva XPA-2 for subs (or do i need 2 x mono amps for subs)
Denon or Marantz 7.1 4k/3D pre-amp (model tbc)
3D projector either from JVC (if i am pressed for budget) or Sony if i am feeling generous!
Triad bronze inwall surrounds and rears
Triad bronze/6 inwall sub for balancing
JTR Noesis 228's for LCR.
SUB's TBC - thinking some JBL 18" or home made boxes.. (would the amp be up to the job for that?)
Harmony or similar remote
Seymour XD 122" wide curved screen
GIK acoustic treatments - probably hidden behind fabric walls (GIK recommended a different design for the acoustic treatments so will just amend to suit their products)

Out of principle i will not buy Procella or Quest as they are Erskine owned/ promoted products and feel like i have already paid my dues to them.

I was informed by Dennis that posting any of their plans or drawings was a breach of copyright so cant put any of those images up on here.

Thanks all for your advice and input on what was supposed to be a fun / pleasurable project which Erskine Group managed to turn into the opposite. I will start a new thread when the work starts..

hopefully the above will result in a nice looking room that will sound ok and can be enjoyed by our family.... since that was all i wanted! i can see an XboxOne being added to the list too!

Interesting summary...I had the exact same experience with the Erskine Group. Very disappointed as I'm sure you are as well.
post #47 of 227
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

Interesting summary...I had the exact same experience with the Erskine Group. Very disappointed as I'm sure you are as well.


i was contacted by a number of people who also had similar experiences! wish i had known what i know now, would have been a very different process and experience.

I would say that unless you pretty much have a totally unrestricted budget then they are not the best route. They are dealers/promoters or procella, and have some ownership of quest. I dont consider our budget to be inconsiderate, and they managed to make it so, with no consideration, or desire to work toward my budget. As it turns out we will be spending about 80k on our theatre but this still doesnt allow enough for the equipment they specified. also some of the equipment is so bespoke that only they can program or alter it. they dont tell you that up front. Dennis Erskine has to date refused to speak with me (in fact i have never spoken with him - just had a handful of emails). I was told by Shawn Byrne that Dennis only dealt with the 100k plus theatres. I threatened legal action due to them not completing the contracted service i paid fully in advance for. I have some shocking correspondence records from them - this is currently being reviewed by my lawyers! with the amount i save on not using much of their specified equipment, i can afford a good lawyer instead smile.gif
post #48 of 227
Why not cut and run? I am sure Big would love to do your theater!
post #49 of 227
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Curved screens are sexy. You only really need it with the projectors you listed if you add an anamorphic lens which may introduce some pin cushion effect at short throw distances. At long throw the pin cushion is minimal. Having said that some guys just like the look and do it. It may cause a little image distortion with the center of the image a little taller which will fall off on the velvet border and you won't notice it. Curve Frenzy in my signature has the Seymour curved screen.

Sorry to hear that your relationship with the Erskine Group failed to hit the mark addressing your needs. It is a first class design. with a matching price tag to build and equip.

Thanks Jeff,
i do like the look of a curved screen, and was told by EG that they only recommended a curved screen (hence that is what they drafted in the plans) to prevent light refraction? (or is it reflection?) onto the side walls at the front of the theatre.
Really like Vik's theatre and he was very helpful when i spoke to him.

Regarding EG, obviously a highly respected practice, however if they are not willing to work within a clients budget then they should either not take on the work or as i thought and was told by them that they would do, work with me to get a theatre within the budget. I had specifically written to them to confirm they would help select the av equipment which i have emails confirming from Shawn - Dennis advised that this was not in the contract i signed and therefore not part of their service.
I would love for someone to tell me what i did to offend Dennis Erskine? i have asked both him and Shawn but have never received an answer.

unfortunately it seems that i am not an isolated case of this problem.
post #50 of 227
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claybe View Post

Why not cut and run? I am sure Big would love to do your theater!

i have a local contractor who is doing the fitout of the unfinished space, even after the threat of lawyers (and Dennis writing to advise me that any and all communications with EG would now by via lawyers), Shawn Byrne thereafter has offered to provide his contracted 5hrs of telephone support, i suspect to avoid repaying the 5 x $350 that they value that at!)

they will not have any more involvement. i think they have designed a good room (albeit not exactly what we asked for), just wish they would have been easier and more cooperative to work with, and have been willing to work with me to help specify and select the av equip.
I knew nothing about theatres when i started this process, and as frustrating as it has been, at least i have learned something from it (although still know nothing about theatres!!)

I have only ever heard great things about Jeff's work! he may get a call yet...
post #51 of 227
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ribigaolu View Post

we really like the clean look of not having a projector in the ceiling, but of course there is a cost to that. Erskine advise that the Runco projector will work from the 22'8" distance, but not from 26ft. I have no experience in this sort of stuff.
GBRzLi

We do to, but we were told we couldnt do that. I was told that a projector that could work at 26ft would alone consume most of my budget.

apparently my budget (+50%) would only accommodate a $5500 projector therefore had to have the hushbox at the back of the room but would in preference benefit from 2 x QSC DSP's at $3500 each!

I think a theatre experience is a 50/50 split between what you see and what you hear - we are not audiophiles nor did we even mention that we would use the theatre to listen to music...
post #52 of 227
I looked at using Dennis and landing up going with Rives in my new room. My last room I did all myself, and although the acoustic calculations took a bunch of time, I knew they were done correctly. My new room is not done yet. I am hoping it will sound great.

I think Jeff has been the best to deal with! I should have paid Jeff to come to Canada to do mine. He is very helpfull on this forum and does not feel everything needs to be a secrete. I would recomend using his services since gerneral contractors do not understand the how and why which is very costly to fix.

I am sure you can find good equipment by reading through the forum and asking for recomendations.

Good Luck!

Chad
post #53 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

As you picked up the phone to dial that first time did you realize you were staring down the rabbit hole?
Based on this sentence from your first post,
"This is a dedicated theater but we were just wanting a decent family fun room to watch occasional movies in (both for kids and adults)"
I would say you called the wrong dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wagnerc View Post

I looked at using Dennis and landing up going with Rives in my new room. My last room I did all myself, and although the acoustic calculations took a bunch of time, I knew they were done correctly. My new room is not done yet. I am hoping it will sound great.

I think Jeff has been the best to deal with! I should have paid Jeff to come to Canada to do mine. He is very helpfull on this forum and does not feel everything needs to be a secrete. I would recomend using his services since gerneral contractors do not understand the how and why which is very costly to fix.

I am sure you can find good equipment by reading through the forum and asking for recomendations.

Good Luck!

Chad

Good quotes. Heard good things about both contractors but after hearing more of these "money could have been used differently" stories maybe I'll try on my own with the design aspect. Was thinking about Erksine or Rives for at least the plans and design and then going from there.
post #54 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by mads1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

As you picked up the phone to dial that first time did you realize you were staring down the rabbit hole?
Based on this sentence from your first post,
"This is a dedicated theater but we were just wanting a decent family fun room to watch occasional movies in (both for kids and adults)"
I would say you called the wrong dude.

thanks - with hindsight i would be inclined to agree!! still, construction element now contracted and will start in early Jan. Since erskine wont basically give any further helpful or constructive advice other than telling me that what they have drawn/spec'd is what they recommend. We will just take if from here and make it into what i wanted. I have never had such an experience of working with a 'professional' firm and i build real estate for a living!

we will leave the large area to the rear of the theatre empty for now (contractors will build a temporary bar to set behind the second row of seats) so at least that space serves some function.

Anyway i think the principles of the room are right - now for best spending the budget! my intention is to move the projector hushbox to behind the back wall. Equipment list i am trying to economise so far i have shortlisted the following (i am looking at both used/b-stock/refurbished etc equipment to keep the cost down, and hopefully to make space for the sony vw1000es projector:
3 x Emotiva XPA-3 amps for LCR, and surrounds & Rear
1 x Emotiva XPA-2 for subs (or do i need 2 x mono amps for subs)
Denon or Marantz 7.1 4k/3D pre-amp (model tbc)
3D projector either from JVC (if i am pressed for budget) or Sony if i am feeling generous!
Triad bronze inwall surrounds and rears
Triad bronze/6 inwall sub for balancing
JTR Noesis 228's for LCR.
SUB's TBC - thinking some JBL 18" or home made boxes.. (would the amp be up to the job for that?)
Harmony or similar remote
Seymour XD 122" wide curved screen
GIK acoustic treatments - probably hidden behind fabric walls (GIK recommended a different design for the acoustic treatments so will just amend to suit their products)

Out of principle i will not buy Procella or Quest as they are Erskine owned/ promoted products and feel like i have already paid my dues to them.

I was informed by Dennis that posting any of their plans or drawings was a breach of copyright so cant put any of those images up on here.

Thanks all for your advice and input on what was supposed to be a fun / pleasurable project which Erskine Group managed to turn into the opposite. I will start a new thread when the work starts..

hopefully the above will result in a nice looking room that will sound ok and can be enjoyed by our family.... since that was all i wanted! i can see an XboxOne being added to the list too!

You paid $4k for drawings and can't post them?
I can't believe that.

When a person pays for professional photography work, it's clear in their contract they "own" the rights to the photo as COPYRIGHT holders and can do with them as they please.
What did your contract say? Did you sign away your right to your drawing?
That you can only share the plans with your builder but not post the general size/layout here?
That's not giving away trade secrets, where stuff is. I've seen many others post their EG layouts.
The trade secret is the size/spec/manuf method of the "stuff".

I've been a member here since 2007, and Dennis has helped so many people over the years, so I'm surprised at this.
I also realize there are 2 sides to every story, and a public forum is not the place to air it.

Moving on, this is a great DIY community.
I suggest you DIY as much as possible: Curved AT Screen (no need if not using an a-lens), Acoustic treatments, Subwoofers, heck even your mains/surrounds via DIY Sound Group offerings.
post #55 of 227
Question is , "Why haven't there been much postings in Forum by Erskine Group in the last six months?"

Silence speaks volumes.......,
post #56 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Silence speaks volumes.......,

I might be speaking out of school here, but I noticed a fall in activity as soon as the forum changed owners....perhaps they're not allowed to talk about this.

Anyway, I look forward to getting my drawings from The Erskine Group (some time in January if all goes well). In the past they have provided cut down versions for people to post online....
post #57 of 227
Like I said here, "as he has helped so many here"...
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1492411/cedia-board-of-directors-member-dennis-erskine-at-cedia-2013#post_23777089
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Scott - I've watched almost all your interviews, you are a natural for this position.
Great organization, easy for me to go from clip to clip with your YouTube dashboard.

I truly enjoyed hearing Mr Dennis Erskine, as he has helped so many here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post


post #58 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

I might be speaking out of school here, but I noticed a fall in activity as soon as the forum changed owners....perhaps they're not allowed to talk about this.

Unrelated to the thread topic, but maybe related to your observation..... Ted White has also been uncharacteristically quiet over the last couple of months... HMMM....
post #59 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

Anyway, I look forward to getting my drawings from The Erskine Group (some time in January if all goes well). In the past they have provided cut down versions for people to post online....

They provided me a version I could post on-line. I basically knew what equipment they were going to recommend from talking to others but I was more interested in the design than equipment.
post #60 of 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helheim View Post

They provided me a version I could post on-line. I basically knew what equipment they were going to recommend from talking to others but I was more interested in the design than equipment.

I gave them a 4? page detailed scope so it'll be interesting to see what they come back with. Set clear (client) expectations upfront I say.
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