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What is missing in this industry is obvious (or am I missing something) - Page 3

post #61 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

IIRC you stated you needed passthrough for your pre-pro/AVR.The Outlaw 975 doesn't have this. Have to check out specs on the T748V2 to see if it has it also. As for full surround will you not need to spend more money for additional amps with that 975? Your sig list a UPA2 only unless I missed something. I suggested the NAD T758 only because it is the least expensive model NAD makes that has MDC in order to just upgrade boards instead of the whole AVR. Good luck and hope you enjoy whatever you choose.

Yes the  NAD T748v2 has HDMI standby pass-through.

post #62 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

T


It sounds like you want champagne at beer prices. I think I will go to my local Lexus dealer and see if I can get a stripped version for the price of a 1970'2 Ford Pinto.
I do sympathize with you. I want a new flip phone. I only use a cell phone for calls and not as a toy. Can't see paying double the price for all the smart phones and plans required. Then the accessories are ridiculously priced and need insurance on a smart phone due to high replacement costs. We dinosaurs are a thing of the past and I see no future for the simpler things we used to enjoy.

Don't feel alone. I don't use a cell phone for making phone calls. I use it for GPS duty, texting to keep up with what is going on with members of my family. I use the scanner to scan my prescription drug refills into the drug store system. I use its internet access to monitor sales on my websites. I've used it as a clock and calculator. I sometimes use it to comparison shop when I am in a retail store. Lots of things but no phone calls. I don't want to make or receiver calls when I'm away from a land line.
post #63 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Don't feel alone. I don't use a cell phone for making phone calls. I use it for GPS duty, texting to keep up with what is going on with members of my family. I use the scanner to scan my prescription drug refills into the drug store system. I use its internet access to monitor sales on my websites. I've used it as a clock and calculator. I sometimes use it to comparison shop when I am in a retail store. Lots of things but no phone calls. I don't want to make or receiver calls when I'm away from a land line.

We are 180 degrees apart. smile.gifsmile.gif All I want is to call on a phone. Those other functions are nice, however I like to pay for only what I will use. Most things you list I prefer to do from home. Why spend $ on duplicate functions. Of course the cell carriers are eating this up with the added revenue. I do use the calculator and clock functions.
Still I can tolerate this easier than spending $200 for satellite TV and having to watch more commercials than shows.
post #64 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKSKYDANCER View Post

Yes the  NAD T748v2 has HDMI standby pass-through.

Thank you for the info. IMO this would be the least cost, most effective way for Bun-Bun to go in his search. Its real power output per channel should easily drive his speakers. Grab the Rat Shack meter and get after setting the 748 up to his liking.
post #65 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

Get the NAD T758. Pre-outs, MDC for the upgrade path, and real listed power output. It can be purchased brand new for under 1k. Possibly no need for an external amp. Just another option.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_745T758/NAD-T-758.html

Has NAD actually produced any of these upgrade modules. Other manufacturers offered this years ago. I do not think it was ever successful and the few made available were about as costly as replacing the AVR.
post #66 of 218

I think so to. In fact after looking at this receiver closer,  I just ordered the NAD T748v2 today for myself !

post #67 of 218
Does the T748v2 have the MDC? The specs are incomplete for this receiver. I am seriously considering this one now though.

EDIT: NAD site is very hard to follow. T748v2 does not have MDC. Cheapest one that does is the T758. Might be worth saving up for. I really like that concept.
Edited by Bun-Bun - 12/15/13 at 10:38am
post #68 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Has NAD actually produced any of these upgrade modules. Other manufacturers offered this years ago. I do not think it was ever successful and the few made available were about as costly as replacing the AVR.

Yes they have made these replacement boards. Price if I recall ranges from ~$200 to $600.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

Does the T748v2 have the MDC? The specs are incomplete for this receiver. I am seriously considering this one now though.

EDIT: NAD site is very hard to follow. T748v2 does not have MDC. Cheapest one that does is the T758. Might be worth saving up for. I really like that concept.

You are correct the lowest MDC model began with the T757. Spearit Sound sells many NAD models of AVR's,pre-pro's and amps. New and factory refreshed. All come with full warranties.
post #69 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKSKYDANCER View Post

2 more then I would ever use. "Gee" What do you guys hook up to these AVR's?  I have a Oppo 103 and a Comcast DVR receiver. I could be wrong in saying 7 or more HDMI inputs just adds cost to a receiver and they never gets used by the majority of people...... I thought the whole concept of HDMI was to eliminate all the cables and wires running between components.

I'm only using two HDMI inputs on my 4311. The reason why I pointed out "only" four inputs is that someone mentioned they needed more HDMI inputs. It is better to have too many HDMI inputs and not need them then to need them and not have them wink.gif.

Bill
post #70 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Color yes, audibly color likely not.
That would be an example of deflect and distract? Car audio is irrelevant to the discussion at hand which relates to home audio.

Show me a test proving they don't affect SQ.

I'm not going to fall for a challenge to depart on a fool's journey to prove a negative hypothesis.

Show me a test proving that they do affect SQ.
Quote:
They add needless complexity and introduce weak points susceptible to noise.

Those considerations indict external power amps as well as anything.

One of the most common tech questions I've fielded on AVS relate to hum and noise pickup by external power amps.
post #71 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Happy to get you involved in a bias controlled listening test. Bring your favorite amp and we'll test against a couple of AVR's.

Not interested in a controlled listening test comparing AVR's. Already been apart of those and my Emo won.

Details of those tests are where? I just looked over your every post to AVS can maybe I overlooked something, but I found no such thing.
post #72 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I'm not going to fall for a challenge to depart on a fool's journey to prove a negative hypothesis.

Show me a test proving that they do affect SQ.
Those considerations indict external power amps as well as anything.

One of the most common tech questions I've fielded on AVS relate to hum and noise pickup by external power amps.

Come over and I will prove it to you with my home theater and my car.

And google it. Tons of people in car audio complaining about them.

And yes separates can be prone to noise but there are ways to minimize that; one of those ways is by using proper line level pre outs and not speaker level to line level converters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Details of those tests are where? I just looked over your every post to AVS can maybe I overlooked something, but I found no such thing.

A group of audio enthusiast friends of mine went to a local retailer and set up a A/B in there "show" room. acoustically treated room with plenty of hardware available for testing. We took my EMO and did a series of tests ensuring everything was leveled to the same volume as to not induce false judgment based on volume (I love how the vinyl rips abuse this). Then did a series of A/B tests where the listener did not know which configuration he was listening to. Multiple listeners with multiple AVR's compared to my EMO with the same source material. In the tests the AVR was used stand alone and then as a pre to the EMO. We did this with Paradigm Monitor series speakers and up to the paradigm studio line. As well as some Wharfdale's that I can not remember the model of; They were $10k/pair. The AVR's ranged from lower end Yamaha's to higher end Denon's and Marantz. I bought my Monitor 11's as a result of that experiment.

Everyone preferred the EMO amp driving all speakers tested. I never did notice a difference with my Atoms but that isn't why I bought the amp the first place.
post #73 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post



Everyone preferred the EMO amp driving all speakers tested. I never did notice a difference with my Atoms but that isn't why I bought the amp the first place.

The problem is that those of us who do these tests don't test preference. We simply ask people to identify which one is playing at the moment. There had to be a problem with the test somewhere. Likely it was in level matching. That has to be done with a voltmeter across the speaker terminals. Then it would have to be adjusted when you plugged in the pre outs and adjusted again when you uplugged the pre-outs.. By the time all of that was done, too much time would have passed. My guess is that the testers didn't handle level matching well enough. In a blind test people will detect a very slight difference in volume quite easily. It isn't easy to do a valid bias controlled test. Ask Arny, the guy with whom you disagreed. He perfected the process.
post #74 of 218
The tests were level matched to each other perfectly. That is all I can say. Each time the listener picked their preference of A or B (which was random) they chose the one that had the Emo. And I am done arguing the matter. I am not the only one who has done these testings and come to the same results.

Now compare sub $1000 emo amps to $5000+ audiophile amps and there you have a valid argument.

But crappy amps compared to good amps is a whole another story.
post #75 of 218
I won't say another word. Best of luck to you.
post #76 of 218
I moved away from separates years ago when I found flagships offered enough power for my speakers at the level I liked and honestly did not notice or miss them which allowed me to put the funds where I would actually here a difference better speakers and sub.
I never run my speakers set to large since my sub will always handle 80Hz and down far better than any speakers I could afford besides being placed in the room where it can do the best job leaving the mains placed where they can do the best job.
I also value my hearing and don't play my system at insane levels and periodically check with a db meter because once the damage is done no reversing that.
As an installer I get the advantage of hearing lots of equipment and combinations which has helped me over the years to make sensible upgrades that I can actually hear a difference and remove the physiological effect of the money spent influencing my perception along with the perceived notion spereates always sound better only a few instances has this happened.
post #77 of 218
Sure if you have speakers that can be driven fine by a flag ship AVR (and you have the money to buy a flagship AVR every 3-5 years) then great. I prefer my speakers crossover lower than 80hz. Between 50-60Hz I find is the sweet spot. However for my current set up I have the towers set full range.

I prefer as much low end extension from my towers as possible with the sub just picking up as the towers trail off. And that is where I notice the biggest different in having a separate amp, from the 40-60hz range up to the mids.

I miss old school towers that had 12" woofers and didn't require subs. Now to get that kind of speaker you have to drop unreal amounts of cash.
post #78 of 218

It's the age old buggy whip argument.  Products that were once commonplace were manufactured by a plethora of companies and were affordable.  When the majority buying public moved onto perceived better products (don't need a buggy whip for that new Model T) the once commonplace product becomes a niche product.  The market for AVPs/amps is already a niche market and shrinking every year.  I wouldn't be surprised to see pre-outs disappear from even the high-end models from the major players in the next 20 years.  At some point, separate AVPs and amps will be a specialty product and only built to order from very small companies or individuals and they will charge accordingly which will be a pretty penny.

post #79 of 218
Gotta love internet forums. A bunch of people entirely missing the point of the original post, then arguing over something else (relative performance of separates vs receivers). The point was, why do we have to replace the entire box, amps and all, when all we actually want is to get the latest features? The amp section on a 5yr old high line AVR may be perfectly fine, but it doesn't have Airplay, the latest DD/DTS Codecs, the latest HDMI version - and obviously it would be more efficient to keep the perfectly fine amp section and replace the processing section. But with AVRs we're forced to replace the whole lot.
post #80 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by carter840 View Post

So I think most of us realize that an AVR is already old tech in 3-4 years after you purchase it, or at the very least there is something new and flashy that you would rather have. This is the reason that we should all be using processors and separate amplifiers. Most of you seem to realize this, but is there any solution or a solution in sight?

It just baffles me that none of the big names in AVRs are producing separate processors with the same slew of features that their mid level AVRs have. For example it should be easy to buy a processor with 6 HDMI in-ports, EQ, and all the bells and whistles for under $500, and the amplifier should cost less than $300. It just seems that every large manufacturer knows that by selling us AVRs for a better price than the processor/amp option we will come back to them and spend the money all over again in a few years. I know that Outlaw is one company that seems to be trying to enter this void in the market, but they are missing the big features on their processes that so many of us want. Is there any reason that Denon, HK, or Onkyo don't just break free from the others and offer smartly packaged separate amplifiers and processors? When did the market turn like this?

I would respectfully disagree with the statement that we should ALL be using processors and separate amps. Mainly for the reason that YOU put forth yourself.

'It just baffles me that none of the big names in AVRs are producing separate processors with the same slew of features that their mid level AVRs have"

This is exactly the reason. I personally can't imagine purchasing a decent receiver today from Denon, Anthem, Marantz, or whoever, for about 2k or so, and wanting something else in 3 or 4 years. Unless of course you just have money to burn. Today's receivers are so feature packed, unless there is some major technological breakthrough, I expect to get 8 to 10 years out of a receiver. You can definitely make a case for a separate amp, if you have large or inefficient speakers, or a big listening space and the amps in your receiver are just running out of power. I know companies like Outlaw and Emo or trying to fill the void, but I personally would not purchase from them. So a decent preamp, from say Marantz will run about what $1500? Then, you wouldn't want to pair it with cheap amps. So you are conservatively looking at LEAST another grand for amplification. That's $2500 to $3000. If you stack that against a good receiver, how much more performance could you expect to get from the amp and processor combo? I know buying separates offer more flexibility when it comes to upgrades. Please understand that I am in no way poo pooing separates. When I have the space and the cash, I will certainly consider them. But for me personally, it's about performance vs dollars spent.
Just my 2 cents..
Edited by music first - 12/16/13 at 7:48am
post #81 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

The tests were level matched to each other perfectly. That is all I can say. Each time the listener picked their preference of A or B (which was random) they chose the one that had the Emo. And I am done arguing the matter. I am not the only one who has done these testings and come to the same results.

Now compare sub $1000 emo amps to $5000+ audiophile amps and there you have a valid argument.

But crappy amps compared to good amps is a whole another story.

Once I saw that you said "The tests were level matched to each other perfectly" I had my doubts. How does one do a "perfect" level match? So you are saying every time in this non sighted A to B comparison the AVR used with the Emotiva amp was picked 100% of the time?

A few questions:

How did you switch from A to B?
All the combinations used were level matched "perfectly"?
How did you do the "perfect" level matching?
How many people participated in this A-B comparison? Any members from AVS?
How long did it take to do this A-B comparison?
What "Emo" amp do you have?

Do you have any links to the other tests you refer to?

Bill
post #82 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

Gotta love internet forums. A bunch of people entirely missing the point of the original post, then arguing over something else (relative performance of separates vs receivers). The point was, why do we have to replace the entire box, amps and all, when all we actually want is to get the latest features? The amp section on a 5yr old high line AVR may be perfectly fine, but it doesn't have Airplay, the latest DD/DTS Codecs, the latest HDMI version - and obviously it would be more efficient to keep the perfectly fine amp section and replace the processing section. But with AVRs we're forced to replace the whole lot.

The idea that it is wasteful to replace the amplifiers every time we change the audio and video signal processing makes common sense.

However when the economies of scale of mass production are considered, then that old school common sense gets knocked around quite a bit.

This is a middle-of-the-road AVR with the parts that we're talking about preserving outlined in pink:



What the picture does not show is the parts that are buried under the parts we can see. What may not be obvious is the fact that the areas inside the pink lines are composed of relatively large parts more widely spaced while the other parts of the AVR are frankly where the majority of the parts are, including the CPU, DSP, and other signal processing components. Their costs can be just as high if not higher than the large transformers and heat sinks that we can see so easily.

Yeah, its kinda sickening that we send perfectly operational power transformers, large filter capacitors, heatsinks and power transformers off to the land fill just because a few signal processing chips got changed. But, that is how things are. The costs and reliability hits of making the things that change plug in and out can be up there, and there can be changes that cannot be anticipated, such as the now near-universal inclusion of Internet Radio. I was actually kind of surprised that my newest AVR didn't pull in Netflix and Amazon Prime, but of course my BD player does...

Whoda thunk?
post #83 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

The tests were level matched to each other perfectly. That is all I can say.

So far you aren't saying enough to convince anybody who is knowlegable about doing proper amplifier tests, and above are the posts to drive that home.
Quote:
Each time the listener picked their preference of A or B (which was random) they chose the one that had the Emo

OK< sighted evaluation - instantly biased and therefore highly questionable.
Quote:
And I am done arguing the matter.

Getting passive agressive doesn't help your case.
Quote:
I am not the only one who has done these testings and come to the same results.

Right, so please don't take it personal, because we treat everybody who can't remember the critical details the same way.
Quote:
Now compare sub $1000 emo amps to $5000+ audiophile amps and there you have a valid argument.

Meaning what?

Does that mean that you actually believe in the law of diminishing returns?
Quote:
But crappy amps compared to good amps is a whole another story.

So, show us why AVR amps are so cursed from birth... Facts only please!
post #84 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

Sure if you have speakers that can be driven fine by a flag ship AVR (and you have the money to buy a flagship AVR every 3-5 years) then great. I prefer my speakers crossover lower than 80hz. Between 50-60Hz I find is the sweet spot. However for my current set up I have the towers set full range.

I prefer as much low end extension from my towers as possible with the sub just picking up as the towers trail off. And that is where I notice the biggest different in having a separate amp, from the 40-60hz range up to the mids.

I miss old school towers that had 12" woofers and didn't require subs. Now to get that kind of speaker you have to drop unreal amounts of cash.

I do the same thing but with a receiver. I once had some large tower speakers that had 2 12" woofers and a 12" passive radiator per side. They sounded very dark. My current speakers with a subwoofer sound like high end speakers.
post #85 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The idea that it is wasteful to replace the amplifiers every time we change the audio and video signal processing makes common sense.

However when the economies of scale of mass production are considered, then that old school common sense gets knocked around quite a bit.

This is a middle-of-the-road AVR with the parts that we're talking about preserving outlined in pink:



What the picture does not show is the parts that are buried under the parts we can see. What may not be obvious is the fact that the areas inside the pink lines are composed of relatively large parts more widely spaced while the other parts of the AVR are frankly where the majority of the parts are, including the CPU, DSP, and other signal processing components. Their costs can be just as high if not higher than the large transformers and heat sinks that we can see so easily.

Yeah, its kinda sickening that we send perfectly operational power transformers, large filter capacitors, heatsinks and power transformers off to the land fill just because a few signal processing chips got changed. But, that is how things are. The costs and reliability hits of making the things that change plug in and out can be up there, and there can be changes that cannot be anticipated, such as the now near-universal inclusion of Internet Radio. I was actually kind of surprised that my newest AVR didn't pull in Netflix and Amazon Prime, but of course my BD player does...

Whoda thunk?

I hear you - that's the way the market has gone, so economics dictates the best bang for the buck will be where the volume is. The unfortunate result is though, that if you're on a tight budget (say less than $300), you can't get the latest codecs, room correction software, etc, with a really stong amp section, and you can't use a good amp you may have because the sub-$300 AVRs don't have preouts. I'm not anticipating any change in that situation, and I'm fine with my AVR, but I see the logic behind buying the car separately from the motor.
post #86 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I do the same thing but with a receiver. I once had some large tower speakers that had 2 12" woofers and a 12" passive radiator per side. They sounded very dark. My current speakers with a subwoofer sound like high end speakers.

Using subs also gives one much better placement options that are not possible with large speakers with 12" drivers. I'd be willing to bet one will get much better bass response using multiple subs than one could possibly get with large speakers with their limited placement options. Especially when listening to action movies with serious low LFE activity. All this without the need for megawatt amps to drive those large speakers with their 12" drivers wink.gif.

Bill
post #87 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

I see the logic behind buying the car separately from the motor.

AFAIK you can't buy any mainstream automobile without a motor, and if you buy the motor separately the cost is something like 1/3 to 1/2 that of a new car.

http://www.enginefactory.com/ls7_650hpfi.htm
post #88 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

So far you aren't saying enough to convince anybody who is knowlegable about doing proper amplifier tests, and above are the posts to drive that home.
OK< sighted evaluation - instantly biased and therefore highly questionable.
Getting passive agressive doesn't help your case.
Right, so please don't take it personal, because we treat everybody who can't remember the critical details the same way.
Meaning what?

Does that mean that you actually believe in the law of diminishing returns?
So, show us why AVR amps are so cursed from birth... Facts only please!

My choice to not argue this further is not passive aggressive. It is a decision based on the fact you (and others) just ignored information in my above post and twisted the words against me. I am not going to repeat myself and I will not replace google or this forums very search function.

Ignoring information presented is not good debate, it Is just plain ignorance.

And yes I do believe in the law of diminishing returns and that not everyone is equal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by music first View Post

I would respectfully disagree with the statement that we should ALL be using processors and separate amps. Mainly for the reason that YOU put forth yourself.

'It just baffles me that none of the big names in AVRs are producing separate processors with the same slew of features that their mid level AVRs have"

This is exactly the reason. I personally can't imagine purchasing a decent receiver today from Denon, Anthem, Marantz, or whoever, for about 2k or so, and wanting something else in 3 or 4 years. Unless of course you just have money to burn. Today's receivers are so feature packed, unless there is some major technological breakthrough, I expect to get 8 to 10 years out of a receiver. You can definitely make a case for a separate amp, if you have large or inefficient speakers, or a big listening space and the amps in your receiver are just running out of power. I know companies like Outlaw and Emo or trying to fill the void, but I personally would not purchase from them. So a decent preamp, from say Marantz will run about what $1500? Then, you wouldn't want to pair it with cheap amps. So you are conservatively looking at LEAST another grand for amplification. That's $2500 to $3000. If you stack that against a good receiver, how much more performance could you expect to get from the amp and processor combo? I know buying separates offer more flexibility when it comes to upgrades. Please understand that I am in no way poo pooing separates. When I have the space and the cash, I will certainly consider them. But for me personally, it's about performance vs dollars spent.
Just my 2 cents..

What dream land are you living in that any mainstream technology based product is good for 8-10 years? 6 months and that technology is obsolete. I wanted to replace my AVR 3 years after owning it and now after 5 years I am really starting to feel its age due to new technology. It no longer works with devices that I want to connect to it. However I fully expect my Emo amp and Paradigm speakers to last me 10+ years.

And you base your opinions of products based on how much they cost? Emo and Outlaw are cheaper than the competition therefore they must not be as good.

Seriously?

I think I need to find a differen't forum. Everyone here is CLEARLY missing the entire point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The idea that it is wasteful to replace the amplifiers every time we change the audio and video signal processing makes common sense.

However when the economies of scale of mass production are considered, then that old school common sense gets knocked around quite a bit.

This is a middle-of-the-road AVR with the parts that we're talking about preserving outlined in pink:



What the picture does not show is the parts that are buried under the parts we can see. What may not be obvious is the fact that the areas inside the pink lines are composed of relatively large parts more widely spaced while the other parts of the AVR are frankly where the majority of the parts are, including the CPU, DSP, and other signal processing components. Their costs can be just as high if not higher than the large transformers and heat sinks that we can see so easily.

Yeah, its kinda sickening that we send perfectly operational power transformers, large filter capacitors, heatsinks and power transformers off to the land fill just because a few signal processing chips got changed. But, that is how things are. The costs and reliability hits of making the things that change plug in and out can be up there, and there can be changes that cannot be anticipated, such as the now near-universal inclusion of Internet Radio. I was actually kind of surprised that my newest AVR didn't pull in Netflix and Amazon Prime, but of course my BD player does...

Whoda thunk?

That is exactly the point. If separates were to be made at economies of scale and left AVR's as el cheepo all in one solution then it would be feasible to replace AVP's economically and keep high quality amps around.

Honestly, by everyones logic here, we should all be using sony bookshelf systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

AFAIK you can't buy any mainstream automobile without a motor, and if you buy the motor separately the cost is something like 1/3 to 1/2 that of a new car.

You're arguments are inconsistent. You start by talking about mainstream automobiles but then link a high performance engine that is far from mainstream?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Using subs also gives one much better placement options that are not possible with large speakers with 12" drivers. I'd be willing to bet one will get much better bass response using multiple subs than one could possibly get with large speakers with their limited placement options. Especially when listening to action movies with serious low LFE activity. All this without the need for megawatt amps to drive those large speakers with their 12" drivers wink.gif.

Bill

My experience has been the opposite. Large speakers have been easier to place and get excellent sound out of then subs. In fact my current room would require serious audio treatment to get my sub sounding proper yet with my Monitor 11's I got the sound I wanted with minimal effort.

What magewatts amps are you referring to? (I assume your comment is a stab at me) My UPA-2 is 125w x2 @ 8ohm and I am considering a 200w x 3 amp. No megawatts here.

I am starting to think you and I are living in entirely different worlds and I should go find a new forum.

I don't "listen" to action movies. I watch them. I "listen" to music.
Edited by Bun-Bun - 12/16/13 at 10:41am
post #89 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

AFAIK you can't buy any mainstream automobile without a motor, and if you buy the motor separately the cost is something like 1/3 to 1/2 that of a new car.

http://www.enginefactory.com/ls7_650hpfi.htm

Just an analogy. eg swapping out the processing part of the receiver, while keeping the amp section being akin to keeping the drivetrain of your vehicle while swapping the rest to get the latest Bluetooth, Nav, Infotainment, etc. While impractical in cars, (so maybe not such a great analogy), it's totally doable in audio gear. It's probably just the added complexity that dissuades people from demanding this approach - I mean, aside from people frequenting forums like this, who even knows the difference between the processing section and the amp section of a receiver?
post #90 of 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post

My experience has been the opposite. Large speakers have been easier to place and get excellent sound out of then subs. In fact my current room would require serious audio treatment to get my sub sounding proper yet with my Monitor 11's I got the sound I wanted with minimal effort.

What magewatts amps are you referring to? (I assume your comment is a stab at me) My UPA-2 is 125w x2 @ 8ohm and I am considering a 200w x 3 amp. No megawatts here.

I am starting to think you and I are living in entirely different worlds and I should go find a new forum.

I don't "listen" to action movies. I watch them. I "listen" to music.

When you say Monitor 11's I'm assuming you are talking about the Paradigm Monitor 11's. Looking quickly at the specs of the Monitor 11's it indicates they go down to about 42 Hz. I would think placing them would be easy seeing they don't go as low as most subs. When I said placing large speakers I meant with 12" woofers that you referenced in an early post (post #77). Would getting bass response out of speakers with 12" woofers that one would get from a quality powered sub possible with a UPA-2? In other words 125 wpc is going to power those large speakers with 12" woofers to get enough LFE impact so that subs aren't needed. I doubt that very much but you can believe what you wish smile.gif.

I would have to agree with you in that you are definitely living in an entirely different world than most here on AVS wink.gif. I'm sure if you posted the same in other A/V forums you are going to get the same response as here. But if you want to move on so be it.

When "watching" action movies I view and listen at the same time. Interesting concept I know wink.gif. Why bother having a surround sound system if you are not interested in "listening" to the movies you watch. Save your money and just use the speakers in your TV.

Maybe you missed these questions I posted earlier about your A-B comparison, I'll try again.

How did you switch from A to B?
All the combinations used were level matched "perfectly"?
How did you do the "perfect" level matching?
How many people participated in this A-B comparison? Any members from AVS?
How long did it take to do this A-B comparison?
What "Emo" amp do you have?

Do you have any links to the other tests you refer to?


Bill
Edited by Bill Mac - 12/16/13 at 11:54am
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