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Here's a lil tease of what's to come - Page 6

post #151 of 201
I wonder how that mid-horn would sound with a higher quality driver crossing over to the same JBL's down low, and the same DNA-360 up top?

As Redig said, that Delta 10a is probably the weakest link.
post #152 of 201
The 10a performs great in horn loaded designs. It might not be as good as some other drivers in a resonant system but who cares. I think throwing more money at a 10" would not warrant enough of gain. You might even need to spend 5x's the money only to have a slight upgrade.
post #153 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I wonder how that mid-horn would sound with a higher quality driver crossing over to the same JBL's down low, and the same DNA-360 up top?

As Redig said, that Delta 10a is probably the weakest link.

Uh, yeah, ... somewhat akin to the weakest link in an Iowa class battleship. tongue.gif

I mean the JBLs handling up to 200hz-300hz, and the Delta 10a driver, loaded in that manner, used in a modestly sized-short throw home environment, it's just not going to be tasked with much of anything that would push it into excursion or current related non-linearities.

I agree, and I too pointed out the mid horn as the big area of question, early in this thread. There's higher quality drivers for the app, but I'm not sure what would be gained subjectively, at the LP.



edited for clarity, in italics, Delta 10a
Edited by FOH - 12/27/13 at 8:24am
post #154 of 201
I'm not sure what's wrong with the delta 10 a at all??? 200 to 1500hz is the perfect bandwidth for that driver. And horn loaded will increase its capability. What would be an improvement? Maybe a couple of horn loaded 8"?
post #155 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Well I am still wanting to do a 8-12" coaxial like the SM80 for outdoor purposes. Probably just 10" Beyma's. But lets stick with hearing more about your uber mains. biggrin.gif

The Beyma 8's are in house btw smile.gif I am hoping to get some preliminary tests going this weekend/first of next week....
post #156 of 201
Like FOH said there's better quality drivers but who's to say what could be gained subjectively from them. I think Scott's got the right idea. 10" inch drivers are relatively inexpensive and he could always experiment with some different ones in the future.

These are gunna kick so much ass tho!
post #157 of 201
The only fault of the Delta 10 would be the midbass compared to the JBL's and since they are not covering that portion they are perfect! I am not even sure they are needed though as the 2226's can play all the way to the SEOS if need be. Mid horns are cool though.
post #158 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am not even sure they are needed though as the 2226's can play all the way to the SEOS if need be. Mid horns are cool though.

However, a quick overview of design choices illustrates that by employing a quad array of JBLs ... to assure there's essentially zero (x) or (i) related non-linearities, led him to pursue a single driver solution across that range, and being the savvy dude he is, this allowed him to utilize controlled directivity ... taking as much room out of the speaker-room interface as possible. cool.gif

Elegant all around.
post #159 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

However, a quick overview of design choices illustrates that by employing a quad array of JBLs ... to assure there's essentially zero (x) or (i) related non-linearities, led him to pursue a single driver solution across that range, and being the savvy dude he is, this allowed him to utilize controlled directivity ... taking as much room out of the speaker-room interface as possible. cool.gif

Elegant all around.

I agree. I like the mid horn and delta 10.
post #160 of 201
LOL you guys are funny (generally speaking, not necessarily the most recent posters). From where I sit this is a build that still represents "high value" for what it is as much as it represents "high performance", just taken to a new level where the performance looks to be so impressive that the value is easy to miss. But some of you wanna pick on the $80 midranges? To me that's part of what makes it cool. cool.gif
post #161 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I wonder how that mid-horn would sound with a higher quality driver crossing over to the same JBL's down low, and the same DNA-360 up top?

As Redig said, that Delta 10a is probably the weakest link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

The 10a performs great in horn loaded designs. It might not be as good as some other drivers in a resonant system but who cares. I think throwing more money at a 10" would not warrant enough of gain. You might even need to spend 5x's the money only to have a slight upgrade.

Yep, it is hard to find a better driver for that application. The answer to audio nirvana is not always "more better driver". When you are working with cone drivers on horns like this, it is not as simple as picking a "better" 10" pro driver because the horn is far more sensitive to the parameters of the driver than typical direct radiator setups. For instance, the AE TD10 line is very nice, but there isn't a model that works well on horns like this.

I've modeled the Pi midhorn a while back in an effort to find a superior driver and it was fruitless besides a couple of JBLs IIRC. The models that looked good were the 2251J and 2012H. I think there are a bunch of 2251J's on ebay right now. Whether or not it would provide an actual performance gain I don't know because the higher frequency horn to driver interaction can't really be modeled (at least with tools I know of). The only way to know would be via testing. On paper, the JBL drivers are definitely superior with likely lower distortion, but it is not a given that they would work as well in the horn.

Here is a model of the 2251J vs the Delta 10 on the pi midhorn in 2pi space (dark line is the 2251J):



You can see that they model very close to each other.

One quick note for Scott. You might not be able to play the midhorn as low as Parham does in the 7Pi speaker because you aren't cornerloading the horn. Cornerloading probably adds about 1-2 octaves of extension. I'd shoot for a handoff around 300-400hz for the midhorn to the midbass. I'd also shoot for between 1.2khz and 1.6khz for the midhorn to SEOS horn.
post #162 of 201
Thread Starter 
Messed around with Omnimic today and got my response fairly flat. Did a THD measurement.

post #163 of 201
Well it looks like you're off to a great start. I'd be happy with a response like that as a finish but I'm sure you'll tweak.
post #164 of 201
Thread Starter 
It sure does look pretty good. These are still mostly initial settings and delays. I still need to tweak the subs to the jbl's better but today I worked a bit on getting the bass response flatter as there was general EQ needed to bring a couple peaks down. Lot's of tweaking still to be done.

Just thought I'd show a little bit of what I was working on today. I'll have the weekend to listen to more stuff. Watched some clips from Transformers 1 and boy does this system impress. eek.gif


Btw, that's all LCR right there (surrounds off) using full mono running some noise from Omnimic. Stays flat with just a single channel or all three! cool.gif
post #165 of 201
So no subs in that response?
post #166 of 201
Thread Starter 
Yes subs. smile.gif

Response down low with out them is ... just as I had hoped but still a drooping overall lowend unless I were to use a ton of boost on the JBL's. With the subs running the response was flat <10hz.

Right now I have the JBL's running 3-300hz and the SI's and RLp's running 3-50hz roughly. All fronts are full range on AVR and LFE is being summed to each LCR per DCX device. LFE is reproduced by ALL subwoofers and the bottom six JBL's.

Sounds amazing. biggrin.gif
post #167 of 201
Legit!
post #168 of 201
May I ask what amp(s) you are running?

These are probably around 104db/watt?
post #169 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

The Beyma 8's are in house btw smile.gif I am hoping to get some preliminary tests going this weekend/first of next week....
Allllllllright:D
post #170 of 201
Wow, those measurements look super good! It looks like the Delta-10a is a better performer than I had originally thought it to be. I wonder how that mid-horn would sound with something like a TD10? What specs on the driver for the mid-horn are necessary to provide optimal performance?
post #171 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Wow, those measurements look super good! It looks like the Delta-10a is a better performer than I had originally thought it to be. I wonder how that mid-horn would sound with something like a TD10? What specs on the driver for the mid-horn are necessary to provide optimal performance?

Mart, check out my sresponse a few back. The TD drivers aren't really designed for midhorn use. The driver I would try would be the JBL 2251J. I believe it is a neo differential drive motor which might offer some advantages over the Delta 10. In practice though the advantages would be tiny. Sensitivity is around 102dB which means that even when playing reference peaks it will barely require significant power or excursion. The advantages of the JBL motor would be more apparent when pushed well beyond what even the craziest home theater guys would attempt.

Finally, the models don't account for how the cone shape and material interacts with the horn throat. Modeling software might exist that can do this but I'm not aware of any available to amateurs (or even pros to be honest). Even if you find a driver that models well you would need to measure it in the horn to know of would work well. The Delta QB has been used successfully and believe the horn was designed with it in mind. I think Wayne has also used the or tested the 2251.

Off the shelf drivers that work well in mid horns are usually hard to find because they aren't frequently used and small differences affect how they can be used.

Finally, demand for 3-way horn systems in pro audio has diminished over the years for a number of factors. Cheap power is readily available. Midwoofers can easily play from subwoofer to high horn. Modern HF compression drivers can easily play down to 1300hz in a pro setting. For similar reasons the 2" throat has gone extinct in modern designs. I'd guess that for every 100 pro mids, 1 is viable for horn use.

With that said, there are gains possible in maximum effort situations like Scott's and Chop's. Scott wouldn't be able to run arrays of 4 2226's without something else playing gone to 400-500hz. He will also be able to control directivity lower than otherwise possible with a 1" horn.
post #172 of 201
Awesome Scott!!!
post #173 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Messed around with Omnimic today and got my response fairly flat. Did a THD measurement.

Sick Scott, just sick response! congrats!

Noticed you didn't chart to 5hz, does your signal chain start to rolloff at 10?
post #174 of 201
What's your seating distance to the LCR? Would love to see more pics!
post #175 of 201
So what do the 10" mid-horns better than a quartet of 2226's?

The only thing I can think of is CD, but is the difference that significant in that freq range?
post #176 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

What's your seating distance to the LCR? Would love to see more pics!

I want to say like 8 or 9 feet? Scott can give you an exact measurement, but I think that's what it is... might be closer though.
post #177 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

So what do the 10" mid-horns better than a quartet of 2226's?

The only thing I can think of is CD, but is the difference that significant in that freq range?

I am not quite sure what you are asking? The 10" mid-horn that is loaded with an Eminence Delta-10a is crossing over to the JBL-2226's down low, as they are covering the range between the subwoofers top end, and the Delta-10a's low end.
post #178 of 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

So what do the 10" mid-horns better than a quartet of 2226's?

The only thing I can think of is CD, but is the difference that significant in that freq range?

A quartet of 2226's can't play up to ~1khz for the handoff to the SEOS horn. Well, they can, but they shouldn't because of null and comb filtering issues. You could take the quad 2226's and roll off the top end of each one so that only 1 driver plays up to 1khz, the driver next to it up to 700hz and the two bottom drivers up to about 450hz. This would solve that problem but add complexity.

The mid horn also provides a few interesting benefits. It provides a center to center distance similar to a 12" woofer instead of a 15" woofer so the vertical nulls are more easily managed. It also should control directivity lower and better than a single 15" woofer from 500hz to 1khz. Then there is the advantage of off loading some output duty allowing the quad 2226s to focus more on midbass and upper bass. This reduces IMD related to a driver covering the high excursion demands <80hz while also playing the 1khz range.

Now if the question is what frequency range should each section cover, that is a tough one to answer. According to my sims, the midhorn's excursion starts to rise a bit below 400hz. The quad 2226's shouldn't played above about 500hz. That would suggest the 400-450hz crossover range would be a good start. Also, these are not corner loaded like in the 7Pi speakers so I'm not sure how well they will play below 400-500hz.

The usual disclaimer applies though concerning the tangible benefit of these advantages. Will the speaker sound better than a SEOS-12 and single 2226? It should, but how much better is difficult to ascertain.

BTW, Scott, in looking at your FR chart, I can see a few issues that might be due to the rising on-axis response of the midhorn. I know you are just getting things squared away, but I think there can be some big gains with better crossover optimization. You might try raising the level of the midhorn 2-3db and placing a shallower slope filter around 700-800hz instead of what is likely closer to 1-1.2khz right now.
post #179 of 201
I agree with Coctostan on your FR. And using the filter slope to manage some of the response. I prefer using the knee of the slope to control response rather than stuffing it with a high order filter and using PEQ to crank everything into place. Don't have a reason why. Just do.
post #180 of 201
Thanks, coctostan, that answers it nicely.
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