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Ultimate Sony VPL-VW500ES/VW600ES - Information Thread! - Page 8

post #211 of 386
Reportedly its very good out of the box. And it has an auto cal function for maintaining initial status.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #212 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Reportedly its very good out of the box. And it has an auto cal function for maintaining initial status.

It's my understanding that the auto cal for the Sony requires no extra hook ups or meters (like the JVC does), so it doesn't factor in the room, screen, etc. But as you said, it keeps initial settings on "spec" as the lamp and projector age...so "best mode" will continue to track/measure the same throughout the lifespan (theoretically) if one continues to use the auto cal every so often?
post #213 of 386
For color calibration, the screen could shift things a bit so select a screen that doesn't shift the colors very much. If the colors are off a tad, so what? Nothing measures what your eyes read. That can't be calibrated.
post #214 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View PostI am *MOST* likely going with a 600ES, but the deciding factor was unexpected. Here is the quote from the other Sony thread I posted last night:
I.E. - To her, it comes down to spending more now and saving later vs. saving now but knowing I will have to spend more later anyways to be 4k compatible. She knows there is no such thing as "future proof", but we both feel the Sony is the closest we can get to having a projector that wouldn't need upgraded for a while...and even if it did need upgraded in 3-4 years to meet our needs/technological needs, it would carry better value for resale vs. the JVC since it would be a 4k compatible projector in an emerging 4k market and may very well pay for most, if not all, of a future projector upgrade if/when budget friendly 4k projectors start showing up in 3-4 years anyways. Whereas the JVC wouldn't resell as well since it would be a non-4k (true 4k) projector in a 4k market.

She looks at it as an investment and feels the Sony is the better investment.

 

Good for you, for me it's more like entertainment not an investment.  I did that once with a SIM2 Seleco HT300 projector seven years later it's worth $100 if that! Cost was $12,000, and it only worked for two years, piece of junk will never buy a Seleco again.

 

Never again, now I set the bar at $5000 max so I will continue to enjoy the JVC RS35U until 4K becomes reasonable. Even my RS2 still works and it's eight years old

post #215 of 386
Quote:
Good for you, for me it's more like entertainment not an investment. I did that once with a SIM2 Seleco HT300 projector seven years later it's worth $100 if that! Cost was $12,000, and it only worked for two years, piece of junk will never buy a Seleco again.



Never again, now I set the bar at $5000 max so I will continue to enjoy the JVC RS35U until 4K becomes reasonable. Even my RS2 still works and it's eight years old

My SIM Lumis Host is 4 years and 9 months old. Still works perfectly.
post #216 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

For color calibration, the screen could shift things a bit so select a screen that doesn't shift the colors very much. If the colors are off a tad, so what? Nothing measures what your eyes read. That can't be calibrated.

I went with Falcon Screens (132" 16:9). Mike said it is a 1.0 gain screen (realistically) and he had very good words about it quality wise (especially weave pattern for 4k images).

That is another reason I am happy the 600ES is an option....brightness. With how big my screen is PLUS going acoustic (which impacts brightness), I definitely feel the extra horsepower of the Sony is needed, especially since I am considering 3D movies again.
post #217 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I went with Falcon Screens (132" 16:9). Mike said it is a 1.0 gain screen (realistically) and he had very good words about it quality wise (especially weave pattern for 4k images).

That is another reason I am happy the 600ES is an option....brightness. With how big my screen is PLUS going acoustic (which impacts brightness), I definitely feel the extra horsepower of the Sony is needed, especially since I am considering 3D movies again.

Now when we talked about that screen you said you were not really interested in 3D. smile.gif It is hard to light up a large low gain screen for 3D. The 3D brightness of that combination would be okay for me, but some would want more brightness.
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post #218 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Now when we talked about that screen you said you were not really interested in 3D. smile.gif It is hard to light up a large low gain screen for 3D. The 3D brightness of that combination would be okay for me, but some would want more brightness.

3D was never a make or break issue for me....I hated the IR hassle of the HW30ES and didn't want to spend for the Monster kit, so I abandoned 3D this time last year. For this new upgrade I told myself if the projector I ended up with could handle 3D brightness alright for my new screen material, have built-in RF, and the glasses were cheap I would consider it again and keep a few movies around in 3D for trivial fun every now and then. I believe the 600ES meets these three criteria.
post #219 of 386

And maybe another reason to go with the wife's choice is that she won't be able to say : "see, told you to pick the other one back then" ^^

post #220 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I went with Falcon Screens (132" 16:9). Mike said it is a 1.0 gain screen (realistically) and he had very good words about it quality wise (especially weave pattern for 4k images).

That is another reason I am happy the 600ES is an option....brightness. With how big my screen is PLUS going acoustic (which impacts brightness), I definitely feel the extra horsepower of the Sony is needed, especially since I am considering 3D movies again.

I have both the XD and Falcon samples. I think the XD is 0.9 gain, and the Falson is a smidge less to me when compared side by side. So, I don't think it's a 1.0 gain... probably <0.9
post #221 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I don't....she does. I suppose it's her way of "understanding" my hobby. In that the investment to her is I am spending more money now for a projector that SHOULD last longer and keep a somewhat good resale value when compared to the JVC, only if for the fact that the Sony is 4k compatible and would have a better advantage during resale (if absolutely need be) a few years from now in an emerging 4k market than the JVC which is pseudo-4k.

At the speed that 4K seems to be moving with quite a few big changes bound to find their way into newer TVs, etc, I don't the 1100/600ES would last several years. Maybe not even 2 years before it could be obsolete (or you might need an entire board upgrade like they did with the 1000 to 1100). I am thinking HDR (High Dynamic Range, REC 2020, etc) which they are already talking about and Vizio already have a TV out that supports those improvements. And how long would HDMI 2.0 last before they'll need bigger bandwidth? I honestly don't think the 4K format have stabilized yet...

Don't get me wrong, I am still going to get it knowing full well it could possibly not play any of the 4K BluRays (if they ever make it to market), or other newer 4K formats that might be just around the corner. I am going to enjoy the heck out of them for as long as is possible.
post #222 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

At the speed that 4K seems to be moving with quite a few big changes bound to find their way into newer TVs, etc, I don't the 1100/600ES would last several years. Maybe not even 2 years before it could be obsolete (or you might need an entire board upgrade like they did with the 1000 to 1100). I am thinking HDR (High Dynamic Range, REC 2020, etc) which they are already talking about and Vizio already have a TV out that supports those improvements. And how long would HDMI 2.0 last before they'll need bigger bandwidth? I honestly don't think the 4K format have stabilized yet...

Don't get me wrong, I am still going to get it knowing full well it could possibly not play any of the 4K BluRays (if they ever make it to market), or other newer 4K formats that might be just around the corner. I am going to enjoy the heck out of them for as long as is possible.


What's the probability that sony won't upgrade 600ES if specs were to change and needs a replacement. They already did with 1000ES. I think the only penalty one would have to pay is the upgrade price (and some enhancements that this version might be missing from upgrade).
post #223 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

What's the probability that sony won't upgrade 600ES if specs were to change and needs a replacement. They already did with 1000ES. I think the only penalty one would have to pay is the upgrade price (and some enhancements that this version might be missing from upgrade).

No doubt they will. But in 2 years 4k projectors are going to be below 5k usd. And a 2.5k upgrade won't be that appealing anymore

And before someone tells me a 5000usd 4k projector isn't possible the 500es is already being sold in japan for 6.5k now
post #224 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

No doubt they will. But in 2 years 4k projectors are going to be below 5k usd. And a 2.5k upgrade won't be that appealing anymore

And before someone tells me a 5000usd 4k projector isn't possible the 500es is already being sold in japan for 6.5k now

....who says an upgrade kit for the 500/600ES (if one were offered should it actually be needed) would cost $2.5k? Just like you are sure 4k prices will come down as technology progresses/production costs decrease, so to would an upgrade motherboard.

Not to mention this is all based on speculation that the HDMI 2.0 implementation of the current Sony's won't support future 4k support....which I HIGHLY doubt considering the stake Sony has in 4k adoption. They wouldn't start introducing "more affordable" lines of 4k displays/projectors if they weren't pretty darn sure it was safe to do so.

Oh well, I am playing the odds now. Time will tell. I've always had fantastic luck in this hobby so I am confident.
post #225 of 386
You guys don't seem to get the cost of a 4K lens. Cheaper machines optically won't come close to a machine with a much better lens.
post #226 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View PostNo doubt they will. But in 2 years 4k projectors are going to be below 5k usd. And a 2.5k upgrade won't be that appealing anymore  And before someone tells me a 5000usd 4k projector isn't possible the 500es is already being sold in japan for 6.5k now

I need to move to Japan I would buy one immediately :)

post #227 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post....Oh well, I am playing the odds now. Time will tell. I've always had fantastic luck in this hobby so I am confident.

May be it's because of the name "BigCoolJesus"

post #228 of 386
Maybe he is Jewish and trying to play both sides. smile.gif

I was once President of a local town Jews for Santa organization.

the whole mess started when a local town banned Santa from lighting the towns Xmass tree. The town go it so much adverse publicity nationally, the town council repealed the bann and something like 500 Santas showed up to help light the tree. A lot of Jewish people wearing Jews for Santa buttons on their Santa suits. It turned into a great time for all.
post #229 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

May be it's because of the name "BigCoolJesus"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Maybe he is Jewish and trying to play both sides. smile.gif

I was once President of a local town Jews for Santa organization.

the whole mess started when a local town banned Santa from lighting the towns Xmass tree. The town go it so much adverse publicity nationally, the town council repealed the bann and something like 500 Santas showed up to help light the tree. A lot of Jewish people wearing Jews for Santa buttons on their Santa suits. It turned into a great time for all.

I am beyond lost right now. Laughing....but lost none the less. tongue.gif

I assure you, there is nothing spiritual or enlightening about my handle. Senior year in AP Computer Programming, back in 2006 when gmail was just coming around and the only way to sign up was to get "invited", my good friend and class clown stated "Bigcooljesus, that sounds like the perfect username"....and have been using it ever since. Except recently I changed my main email to a more....professional name for business purposes. It's always funny having to confirm my email address with customer service reps whenever I need to call (like DirecTV or financing companies). I usually hear a chuckle on the other line.

Back on topic. lol
post #230 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I am beyond lost right now. Laughing....but lost none the less. tongue.gif I usually hear a chuckle on the other line. Back on topic. lol
wink.gif
post #231 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

....who says an upgrade kit for the 500/600ES (if one were offered should it actually be needed) would cost $2.5k? Just like you are sure 4k prices will come down as technology progresses/production costs decrease, so to would an upgrade motherboard.

Not to mention this is all based on speculation that the HDMI 2.0 implementation of the current Sony's won't support future 4k support....which I HIGHLY doubt considering the stake Sony has in 4k adoption. They wouldn't start introducing "more affordable" lines of 4k displays/projectors if they weren't pretty darn sure it was safe to do so.

Oh well, I am playing the odds now. Time will tell. I've always had fantastic luck in this hobby so I am confident.

Right.. everything's a speculation. Like I said, it's my honest opinion that 4K is nowhere stable... and we'll be seeing upgrade to the 500/600ES pretty soon... again, speculation... but i am betting technology will win out... tongue.gif

Also, doesn't matter if it's 2.5K upgrade or 1.5K upgrade, you'll have basically lose most if not all the value if the next 4K projector sells for 4-5K (again, Japan is already selling the projector for 6.5K so going below 5K in 2 years is not even a speculation.. it's a certainty... and how much below is the real question)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You guys don't seem to get the cost of a 4K lens. Cheaper machines optically won't come close to a machine with a much better lens.

I don't think the lens actually cost as much as people think to the manufacturer. They are surely 'charging' consumers a LOT, but I doubt it cost a fraction of that to manufacture.. especially the plastic lens sony have in their 500/600ES. Remember, Japan is already selling the 500ES at below 6.5K,...

Everything goes down in price.. .I remembered on another forum, I was debating a guy who were convinced that Solar panels can't possibly get cheaper because of, and he showed me tons of data on manufacturing processes, and tech specs, etc, etc, on how difficult it is to make solar cells... and i told him, it'll be a fraction of the cost in a few years' time and sure enough it went from $5/Watt to now less than 50 cents / watt...

The only reason why something doesn't go down in price is if it were a monopoly... just look at LED TVs... just a few months back, 4K LED TVs the likes of Samsung and Sony, etc were ridiculously high like $20-$30K each (sounds like oligopoly?).. then suddenly some chinese companies announces they aren't going to gauge people's wallets out and comes out with much cheaper 4K tvs, suddenly prices are tumbling like crazy. You can get a 70 Inch 4K now for $2.5K. Remember the time when we all heard how it's very expensive to manufacturer large LCD panels??? That was like 'yesterday'...
post #232 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Right.. everything's a speculation. Like I said, it's my honest opinion that 4K is nowhere stable... and we'll be seeing upgrade to the 500/600ES pretty soon... again, speculation... but i am betting technology will win out... tongue.gif

Remember, Japan is already selling the 500ES at below 6.5K,...

Everything goes down in price except for Rolls Royce...
wink.gif

Do you have a link for Japan!
post #233 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Also, doesn't matter if it's 2.5K upgrade or 1.5K upgrade, you'll have basically lose most if not all the value if the next 4K projector sells for 4-5K

As mark pointed out regarding the quality lens of the 500/600ES (btw, only the very outside lens is plastic...but I am loving how people dig at a company for finding a new material to use that works perfectly for what they want it to do for cheaper rolleyes.gif ), not all projectors are created equal. Yea, you can get the 500ES for around 6.5k in Japan right now.....what does that have to do with what the quality of a future Epson or BenQ or Mit 4k projector might be? My last generation Pioneer Kuro sold for $2000 used (50") in late 2011....even though said buyer could have went out and bought a 60" TV fully loaded with the kitchen sink for less and still had 90% of the performance. Why? Because of quality, because of that last 5% performance difference, no matter the cost. It's the same exact reason why people are currently willing to pay 1k or more for a Sony/JVC 1080p projector even though the market is full of other, cheaper models that can play the same sources (1080p). You think when more 4k projectors roll-out for less it will automatically force all brands and models to hit a magic price mark no matter the performance difference? Also, you are comparing the TV market to the projector market. Apples and Oranges (and solar panels) are different things.

And again, I HIGHLY doubt Sony would have picked now to roll out an expanded lineup of 4k projectors in major markets if they were not confident that they would support the emerging 4k market/content/hardware. Sony has a HUGE pull in said market, if not for their media presence alone. They probably have a good understanding of what is going on "behind closed doors" so to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Everything goes down in price.. .

See Pioneer Kuro example. The prices of these sky rocketed when production was stopped. They still carry a ridiculous resale value (1.5k+ for USED 50" models that offer no connectivity features, no apps, no gimmicks, no 3D, not even speakers). Not at all saying the Sony is the next Kuro in terms of value. Not at all. Just showing that things are not as clearly written in stone as you suggest. Will a 4k projector from Sony exist in two years for under $5k? Most likely. But what performance difference will it carry for the price? That is the question that none of us can answer or even speculate on with certainty. Maybe Sony's R&D finds a brand new technology to employ to make the picture x amount brighter or x amount darker blacks....but that new technology comes at an increased cost. Who knows? As Craig and mark pointed out: buy now and enjoy the hell out of it. If in two years it's still a top model in terms of performance and 4k support (which I SPECULATE it will be), added bonus! If not, resell and upgrade accordingly. No need to fuss or worry about what one can't control cool.gif
Edited by BigCoolJesus - 1/8/14 at 8:26pm
post #234 of 386
My point about lenses is they are expensive if performance compromises are not made. And Sony HAD to make lens design and construction compromises to lower the cost of its entry level 4K projector. The most obvious place was the outer lens group. Its the biggest in diameter group of elements (the bigger the glass, the higher the cost and its not linear, more like a factor of ten per lens stop) and on the 1000/1100 besides it being glass its a much more complex design in order to deal with lens shift potential chromatic aberration. Plus the 1000/1100 lens has SIX ED elements in I believe two groups. None in the 500/6000. Sony pro has a u tube video on the 1100es showing the 1100ES lens and there were videos from the Berlin show showing the element differences between the two lenses. Sony did a good job in designing the 500/600 lens without severe decreasing the performance of the 500/600. Could more money be saved. Sure. Design a smaller lens with a much smaller zoom range and a dimmer projector in the 900 to 1000 class. Me. Old school. I would never buy a lens with a plastic element. Not that what I would never do is at all rationale. Its a hangover from my photography days. Also the issue in photography where lens costs really vary is usage. If I am going on vacation and just want to grab some memory shots of say a house, I would use a much cheaper lens than if I were shooting the house professionally. With projectors, we generally use one projector. I want the best picture I can afford so for me, if I had to make a choice today, it would be the 1100 over the 600 but if my budget allowed on the 600, so be it and I would choose it over lesser 2K projectors. I would be proud to own and use it. I really believe in throwing up 8 million pixels instead of 2 million on a large screen. And if I couldn't afford the 600, then I would use a JVC with e shift. Decent 2K lens there too but low powered machine so lens size costs are controlled too. One ED element in there I believe too. But its a 2K lens. E shift shoots only a 1080p frame on the screen. It would be idiotic to use a 4K lens when the lens only has to handle 2K frames.
post #235 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

As mark pointed out regarding the quality lens of the 500/600ES (btw, only the very outside lens is plastic...but I am loving how people dig at a company for finding a new material to use that works perfectly for what they want it to do for cheaper rolleyes.gif ), not all projectors are created equal. Yea, you can get the 500ES for around 6.5k in Japan right now.....what does that have to do with what the quality of a future Epson or BenQ or Mit 4k projector might be? My last generation Pioneer Kuro sold for $2000 used (50") in late 2011....even though said buyer could have went out and bought a 60" TV fully loaded with the kitchen sink for less and still had 90% of the performance. Why? Because of quality, because of that last 5% performance difference, no matter the cost. It's the same exact reason why people are currently willing to pay 1k or more for a Sony/JVC 1080p projector even though the market is full of other, cheaper models that can play the same sources (1080p). You think when more 4k projectors roll-out for less it will automatically force all brands and models to hit a magic price mark no matter the performance difference? Also, you are comparing the TV market to the projector market. Apples and Oranges (and solar panels) are different things.

They aren't different things. My assumption is that 4K projectors will be mainstream in 2 years, and that's what happens with 'going mainstream' with ANY technology.

Also, you're assuming other 'brands' can't do better than the Sony TODAY in 2 years... that's a huge assumption and most likely going to be proven wrong. In fact, I think almost anything $5K in 2 years will be better than the 500ES today. And that's my assumptions.. only time will tell whose assumption will prove right.
Quote:
Just showing that things are not as clearly written in stone as you suggest. Will a 4k projector from Sony exist in two years for under $5k? Most likely. But what performance difference will it carry for the price? That is the question that none of us can answer or even speculate on with certainty. Maybe Sony's R&D finds a brand new technology to employ to make the picture x amount brighter or x amount darker blacks....but that new technology comes at an increased cost. Who knows? As Craig and mark pointed out: buy now and enjoy the hell out of it. If in two years it's still a top model in terms of performance and 4k support (which I SPECULATE it will be), added bonus! If not, resell and upgrade accordingly. No need to fuss or worry about what one can't control cool.gif

I am not saying it's clearly written.. I am saying it's MY assumptions and I am going to stand by them... same as 'your assumption'..

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My point about lenses is they are expensive if performance compromises are not made. And Sony HAD to make lens design and construction compromises to lower the cost of its entry level 4K projector. The most obvious place was the outer lens group. Its the biggest in diameter group of elements (the bigger the glass, the higher the cost and its not linear, more like a factor of ten per lens stop) and on the 1000/1100 besides it being glass its a much more complex design in order to deal with lens shift potential chromatic aberration. Plus the 1000/1100 lens has SIX ED elements in I believe two groups. None in the 500/6000. Sony pro has a u tube video on the 1100es showing the 1100ES lens and there were videos from the Berlin show showing the element differences between the two lenses. Sony did a good job in designing the 500/600 lens without severe decreasing the performance of the 500/600. Could more money be saved. Sure. Design a smaller lens with a much smaller zoom range and a dimmer projector in the 900 to 1000 class. Me. Old school. I would never buy a lens with a plastic element. Not that what I would never do is at all rationale. Its a hangover from my photography days. Also the issue in photography where lens costs really vary is usage. If I am going on vacation and just want to grab some memory shots of say a house, I would use a much cheaper lens than if I were shooting the house professionally. With projectors, we generally use one projector. I want the best picture I can afford so for me, if I had to make a choice today, it would be the 1100 over the 600 but if my budget allowed on the 600, so be it and I would choose it over lesser 2K projectors. I would be proud to own and use it. I really believe in throwing up 8 million pixels instead of 2 million on a large screen. And if I couldn't afford the 600, then I would use a JVC with e shift. Decent 2K lens there too but low powered machine so lens size costs are controlled too. One ED element in there I believe too. But its a 2K lens. E shift shoots only a 1080p frame on the screen. It would be idiotic to use a 4K lens when the lens only has to handle 2K frames.

I totally understand what you guys are saying... And I agree with all of it (for prices TODAY)... But, and here's the BUT... No amount of logic will prevail here.. everything is based on today's assumptions.. let's see:

1. Good lenses are expensive (it's an assumption based on Today's prices). Like I said, 5 years ago, Solar Cells are expensive.
2. Other models won't be able to make a better projector than Sony (more assumptions). Let's see, JVC already have better lenses than Sony for projectors way cheaper...
3. It's so damn complicated to make great lenses if they are not glass. More assumptions that technology is standing still... the fact that Sony came up with a non-glass alternative for the 500 ES which is 'almost' as good as it's glass counterpart is prove that it can be done... and more likely easier as time goes by.

etc, etc, etc..

You can add dozens to the list above.. but all will be naught if you look at statistics.. technology waits for no one... Once 4K becomes the next 'standard', everything will be a fraction of the cost you see today.. you can't imagine them that cheap, but they WILL be...

In fact, I am so confident that I'll put my money where my mouth is.. I will take a bet with you both...

In two years, I am saying that you'll have 4K projectors similar or better than the Sony 500/600ES today for Less than $5000. Most likely around 4K (In fact, I might even be too pessimistic here.. it might even be cheaper still).

So, any takers??

How about if I win, you buy me a ticket to the next CES or what not... and if you win, I buy you a ticket for a vacation in Malaysia... heh! tongue.gif

ps: I have never lost a bet on predicting prices will fall drastically for any tech items... biggrin.gif

pss: 8K tech is just around the corner, and that means chips powerful enough to process 8K, and all the things necessary (lens, etc) are in the horizon.. which means any 4K tech will be 'cheap'... we are talking about higher resolution, better color gamut, higher dynamic range, brighter (maybe LED bulbs, lasers, etc), and so much more in 2 years it's hard to imagine 4K won't be better than the 500ES today... and at far lower prices..
Edited by coolgeek - 1/9/14 at 2:24am
post #236 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

wink.gif

Do you have a link for Japan!

http://kakaku.com/item/K0000584828/?lid=ksearch_kakakuitem_image

Get a japanese buddy to buy it for you.. heh!

I might take a trip down there for a vacation and bring one home...

I believe if you buy from local shops, it might even be cheaper...
post #237 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

http://kakaku.com/item/K0000584828/?lid=ksearch_kakakuitem_image

Get a japanese buddy to buy it for you.. heh!

I might take a trip down there for a vacation and bring one home...

I believe if you buy from local shops, it might even be cheaper...

And apart from the need to pay for another round trip if something goes wrong, enjoy a projector that will likely be unable to display any HDCP 2.2 protected content today (from the Sony US 4K server puck) or in the future (Bluray 4K) due to region coding smile.gif

By the way, I'm not saying that region coding is great, but they have put these things in place to avoid grey market imports and to protect content which might be licensed in a region and not in another. So better make sure the content you intend to play will work with an imported projector before risking your hard earned on such an import.
post #238 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

And apart from the need to pay for another round trip if something goes wrong, enjoy a projector that will likely be unable to display any HDCP 2.2 protected content today (from the Sony US 4K server puck) or in the future (Bluray 4K) due to region coding smile.gif

By the way, I'm not saying that region coding is great, but they have put these things in place to avoid grey market imports and to protect content which might be licensed in a region and not in another. So better make sure the content you intend to play will work with an imported projector before risking your hard earned on such an import.

Yup.. those are definitely considerations not to be ignored. I really hate 'Region coding'... Consumer rights are being eroded. Nowadays, you don't own anything.. everything is 'licensed for such and such use only'... soon, even your projector is 'licensed to you' but at full cost of the projector... and you can't resell it without paying Sony a commission...

Although it's yet to be seen when they do finalized 4K bluray whether the current 4K displays would work or you'll need more upgrades... my money is on 'more upgrades'.. in fact, I am 'hoping' for it, because it'll only mean 'better dynamic range, better color gamut, things that matter more than just resolution'..

ps: if you happen to encounter some kinky japanese girls, it might be worth the extra round trip.. heheheh.. .(believe me, i have had first hand experience)..
post #239 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Yup.. those are definitely considerations not to be ignored. I really hate 'Region coding'... Consumer rights are being eroded. Nowadays, you don't own anything.. everything is 'licensed for such and such use only'... soon, even your projector is 'licensed to you' but at full cost of the projector... and you can't resell it without paying Sony a commission...

Although it's yet to be seen when they do finalized 4K bluray whether the current 4K displays would work or you'll need more upgrades... my money is on 'more upgrades'.. in fact, I am 'hoping' for it, because it'll only mean 'better dynamic range, better color gamut, things that matter more than just resolution'..

ps: if you happen to encounter some kinky japanese girls, it might be worth the extra round trip.. heheheh.. .(believe me, i have had first hand experience)..

I disagree about the "more upgrades". What is likely going to happen, is that should the BDA decide to go for specs in Bluray 4K which are above the capabilities of the 500/600ES, the content will be downscaled/adapted by the source to be displayed on less compatible devices. They have to, otherwise what is already a niche market will be a micro-niche market. If they were really clever, they would even design Bluray 4K so that it also works on 1080p displays, as the better compression, higher color depth and better chroma subsampling would bring visible improvements on smaller displays, even without the 4K resolution.

For example, if they go for rec2020 as a gamut, players will have to be able to do some gamut conversion to DCI, xvcolor or rec709 for less able displays, as the 500/600ES are not able to display a wider gamut anyway, so no update (bar a non-economically viable light engine one with different light sources and/or color filters) would do. They have taken away the filter that allows the 1000/1100 to cover a DCI gamut for costs and probably real estate reasons as well as the chassis is significantly smaller, they won't "push the gamut" with an upgrade.

Same thing for color depth and chroma subsampling. The 500/600 ES have no real limitations at 24p (so for 99.99% of the existing movies), unless the BDA decided to go up to 444 12 or 16 bits. in that case, that would be downconverted by the source to 422 12 bits, and you likely won't see the difference.

For higher framerate like 120fps, same thing, you'll just have to live with 60p@8bits, it's a known limitation of the display when you buy it due to the HDMI 2.0b speed, don't buy one if you want to display a hypothetical 120 fps UHDTV in rec2020, which probably won't happen for many years anyway (possibly not before 2020 smile.gif).

At this stage, the main advantage of the 500/600ES (and 1x00) vs the competition re compatibility is that they will be able to play all HDCP 2.2 protected content (bar region coding issues due to daring users buying the display and the source in a different country). Maybe not in full quality depending on the specs, but I'll take 10 or 12 bits YCbCr422 4K/UHD in HEVC anytime vs crappy YCbCr420 8 bits 1080p from bluray.

You can wait forever, but the 4K standards aren't going to stabilize for many years. HDMI 2.0a isn't enough for 120FPS, so there will likely be an HDMi 2.x to address that at some point.

Overall, I don't believe there will be another upgrade for the 500/600ES, because it won't be necessary. Content will play, maybe not optimally, but thanks to HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 support it will play and it will be substantially better than upscaled bluray.

There might be another upgrade for the 1100ES when HDMI 2.0a chipsets are more widely available, but I'm not even sure this will happen, for the same reasons. As long as the sources are playable, Sony is under no obligation to make sure that that are optimally playable.

Just my .2 cents, I might be entirely wrong of course smile.gif
Edited by Manni01 - 1/9/14 at 4:31am
post #240 of 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I disagree about the "more upgrade". What is likely going to happen, is that should the BDA decide to go for specs in Bluray 4K which are above the capabilities of the 500/600ES, the content will be downscaled/adapted to be displayed on less compatible devices.

For example, if they go for rec2020 as a gamut, players will have to be able to do some gamut conversion to DCI, xvcolor or rec709 for less able displays, as the 500/600ES are not able to display a wider gamut anyway, so no update (bar a non-economically viable light engine one with different light sources and/or color filters) would do. They have taken the filter that allows the 1000/1100 to cover a DCI gamut for costs and probably real estate reasons as well as the chassis is significantly smaller, they won't "push the gamut" with an upgrade.

Same thing for color depth and chroma subsampling. The 500/600 ES have no real limitations at 24p (so for 99.99% of the existing movies), unless the BDA decided to go up to 444 12 or 16 bits. in that case, that would be converted by the source to 422 12 bits, and you likely won't see the difference.

For higher framerate like 120fps, same thing, you'll just have to live with 60p@8bits, it's a known limitation of the display when you buy it due to the HDMI 2.0b speed, don't buy one if you want to display a hypothetical 120 fps UHDTV in rec2020, which probably won't happen for many years anyway.

At this stage, the main advantage of the 500/600ES vs the competition re compatibility is that they will be able to play all HDCP 2.2 protected content (bar region coding issues due to daring users buying the display and the source in a different country). Maybe not in full quality depending on the specs, but I'll take 10 or 12 bits YCbCr422 4K/UHD in HEVC anytime vs crappy YCbCr420 8 bits 1080p from bluray.

You can wait forever, but the 4K standards aren't going to stabilize for many years. HDMI 2.0a isn't enough for 120FPS, so there will likely be an HDMi 2.x to address that at some point.

Overall, I don't believe there will be another upgrade for the 500/600ES, because it won't be necessary. Content will play, maybe not optimally, but it will play and it will be substantially better than upscaled bluray.

There might be another upgrade for the 1100ES when HDMI 2.0a chipsets are more widely available, but I'm not even sure this will happen, for the same reasons. As long as the sources are playable, Sony is under no obligation to make sure that that are optimally playable.

Just my .2 cents, I might be entirely wrong of course smile.gif

I don't disagree. I think you might be right, in which case, my point is even more relevant.. ie, in 2 years, there'll be projector superior to the current 500ES (again, for less money). And if Sony does add an upgrade package, it won't be cheap like some might want it to be, because it'll be quite a major upgrade (better chips, etc). So, my whole point to begin with was that those who thinks that getting the 600ES today is a 'better investment' and that they can 'recoup' most of their money 2 years down the road is going to be very disappointed. For those who are looking for more stability, perhaps a half priced JVC might hold you over and when the time comes, you'll not lose as much money.
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