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TVs at CES 2014: Bye-bye 1080p plasma, hello 4K LED LCD (CNET Article) - Page 2

post #31 of 167
Us plasma fans defensive? I don't know about that, but I do get amused when those 4K LCDs are marketted as a cutting-edge technology when nothing has been improved in regards to black level, and other PQ elements other than resolution. Emperor's new clothing at its finest. At least one element (resolution) is improved unlike so called 'LED TV' back in the day. lol
Edited by KOF - 1/1/14 at 3:05am
post #32 of 167
Thread Starter 
So at work last night day dreaming (night dreaming?) I thought about the sharp elites and realized I have not heard anything about them this year. After a little googleing, I found articles stating they could no longer manufacture some special part for the TV's and ceased production of them till further notice. Now these LCD tv's were the closest in PQ to the Panasonic / Kuro line of plasmas. Part of me kinda hopes they re-announce the line at CES2014 with 4k and some PQ improvements. If they do, these tv's could be a good contender for top dog until OLED finally becomes economically feasible to produce in mass quantities.
post #33 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalumberjack View Post

So at work last night day dreaming (night dreaming?) I thought about the sharp elites and realized I have not heard anything about them this year. After a little googleing, I found articles stating they could no longer manufacture some special part for the TV's and ceased production of them till further notice. Now these LCD tv's were the closest in PQ to the Panasonic / Kuro line of plasmas. Part of me kinda hopes they re-announce the line at CES2014 with 4k and some PQ improvements. If they do, these tv's could be a good contender for top dog until OLED finally becomes economically feasible to produce in mass quantities.

Sounds like a patent/IP issue or the cost to develop the part was simply not cost effective or the component went obsolete & would require a major redesign to incorporate a newer part or more simply that the Elite was not cost effective overall ----
Edited by JoeG44 - 1/1/14 at 9:07pm
post #34 of 167
I wouldn't have minded the passing of plasma so much if there were more LCD TVs like the Sharp Elite. Can't we at least get full-array local dimming back?
post #35 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeG44 View Post

Sounds like a patent/IP issue -

There was no patent or IP issue.
post #36 of 167
Thread Starter 
AND IT STARTS:

Click Here To Read Caleb Denison's Article on LG's CES 2014 TV's
Quote:
LG is poised to generate some significant buzz at the International CES 2014 convention next week, as it will be showing off five OLED TV models, highlighted by the company’s 77-inch Ultra HD curved OLED TV, which was originally introduced at IFA 2013 in Berlin. The line-up will also include LG’s 55-inch Gallery OLED TV, and three new models just announced today – 55 and 65-inch curved HD versions, and an “environmentally friendly” 55-inch curved model. Pricing and availability on the new OLED televisions will be announced at the show.
post #37 of 167
Thread Starter 
From the other rumor sites, it seems Samsung will probably let fly their TV lineup on Monday. Still crossing my fingers for Sharp to blow away the competition by bringing back the Elite line with 4K and local dimming!

Off topic but about CES, I wonder what are the expectations for announcements like AVR's? If a 4K television becomes possible, it would be nice to have an AVR or pre/pro setup that was HDMI 2.0 compliant. Are AVR's typical showcased at CES or are there other tech shows that get that treatment?
post #38 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalumberjack View Post

From the other rumor sites, it seems Samsung will probably let fly their TV lineup on Monday. Still crossing my fingers for Sharp to blow away the competition by bringing back the Elite line with 4K and local dimming!

Off topic but about CES, I wonder what are the expectations for announcements like AVR's? If a 4K television becomes possible, it would be nice to have an AVR or pre/pro setup that was HDMI 2.0 compliant. Are AVR's typical showcased at CES or are there other tech shows that get that treatment?

You are never going to see a true FALD set like the ELITE again. Vizio's new FALD sets are only using 16 zones in a 4 x4 configuration, so a little better than edge lit, and LG uses a faux-FALD system using electronics to to make its various zones brighter and darker. Sharp is barely surviving and making a low volume niche product like the Elite is not a way to survive. The best we can hope for is that the can cheaply mass produce other advances they have made like IGZO and Motheye that will reduce the need for true FALD sets with 100 zones. With the news that Innolux/CMI plans to produce 75 and 85 inch 4K sets, their only profitable sector of large format displays might soon disappear also, most likely forcing them to sell themselves to the Chinese to survive.
post #39 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

With the news that Innolux/CMI plans to produce 75 and 85 inch 4K sets.
Do we know which companies will be using these panels in their sets in 2014?
post #40 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

[...] and LG uses a faux-FALD system using electronics to to make its various zones brighter and darker.

 

....As opposed to what?

post #41 of 167
Voodoo!
post #42 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

....As opposed to what?

As a opposed to a real FALD set that the use a real LED behind the zone, the LG does it by adjusting the picture settings of individual zones.
post #43 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

....As opposed to what?

As a opposed to a real FALD set that the use a real LED behind the zone, the LG does it by adjusting the picture settings of individual zones.

 

I don't understand.  "Picture settings" will not drop the backlight, and you must drop the backlight to decrease the light leaking through the LCD array (and increase the static contrast ratio).  The LCD array's darkest black is it's darkest black and only improves when you're mitigating the LED.  Otherwise, how's it any different from no local dimming at all?

post #44 of 167
Another Sammy LED DLP owner here. I've already had to replace one of the chips, so I've just been crossing my fingers that it holds out until something better comes along. I'm hoping for a 4K with displayport, HDMI 2, and passive 3D around 70". I'll be happy as long as the picture quality is at least as good as my 7 year old tv.
post #45 of 167
Thread Starter 
I'm on my phone so hard to post all the links but LG, VIZIO, SHARP, and now SAMSUNG have released their tv lines for 2014. LG came out strong with a ton of UHD tvs and even UHD OLED tvs. Only disappointment was Panasonic lack of tvs and all of Samsung ' s UHD tvs are curved :^(.

I'll post all the links and model numbers when I get home
post #46 of 167
This FP in the 65" size could be very intriguing and I'm not even a Vizio fan.


http://reviews.cnet.com/tvs/vizio-rs120/4505-6475r7-35833922.html
Edited by hoozthatat - 1/6/14 at 3:12pm
post #47 of 167
The steady march downward to utter (you insert the word) continues...

LCD continues to DE-EVOLVE.

OLED continues to cost trillions.

Picture quality reasonably obtainable wise this CES is probably the worst ever! Who is looking forward to buying ANYTHING manufactured in 2014?

Will Samsung's last gasp trickle of plasmas improve at all?

OLED wil probably be great five years from now if the world does not continue down the sewer of LCD.

Without FALD LCD just pure de stinks!
Edited by Artwood - 1/7/14 at 9:07am
post #48 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

LCD continues to DE-EVOLVE.
It seems like there were a number of full array local dimming models announced this year. (Sony and Vizio to name two)
post #49 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
It seems like there were a number of full array local dimming models announced this year. (Sony and Vizio to name two)
The Sony appears to be a 4K Direct Lit Local Dimming. In Europe only available in 85''.

btw according hdguru all 2014 TRILUMINOS sony's will have no quantum dots _ we might see the return of RGB LEDs?_
post #50 of 167
And Vizio is a bastardization with only 8 zones, I believe. Nevermind, it seems the new 3D-less announcement concerning the 65" screen mentions 384 zones.
Edited by vinnie97 - 1/7/14 at 11:33am
post #51 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
It seems like there were a number of full array local dimming models announced this year. (Sony and Vizio to name two)
The Sony appears to be a 4K Direct Lit Local Dimming. In Europe only available in 85''.

btw according hdguru all 2014 TRILUMINOS sony's will have no quantum dots _ we might see the return of RGB LEDs?_

 

Fine by me.  LED's emit at very predictable frequencies as well.  The QD thing from Sony seemed to me to be a bit of a marketing over-reach.

 

 

post #52 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Fine by me.  LED's emit at very predictable frequencies as well.  The QD thing from Sony seemed to me to be a bit of a marketing over-reach.
The quantum dot film is absolutely a worthwhile improvement - it means you can use blue LEDs rather than white LEDs in your backlight, and because QD film can be highly tuned, it gives you very pure red, green, and blue light.

Look at the Kindle Fire HDX (which uses blue LEDs and QD film) compared to the other two displays using "white" LEDs for their backlight:
5eoxPBys.jpg
source

Of course, if you're creating a full array local dimming set with a focus on high brightness, it's probably easier and most likely beneficial to be using RGB LEDs instead.
While QD film is a good improvement over white LED backlighting, it's probably not going to be as wide gamut as you will be able to achieve with RGB LEDs.
post #53 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Fine by me.  LED's emit at very predictable frequencies as well.  The QD thing from Sony seemed to me to be a bit of a marketing over-reach.
The quantum dot film is absolutely a worthwhile improvement - it means you can use blue LEDs rather than white LEDs in your backlight, and because QD film can be highly tuned, it gives you very pure red, green, and blue light.


No, that's not what I was saying at all.  Actually, now I'm getting confused, because I would have sworn that the 2014 presentation referred to QD again.

 

The thing I believe you're talking about is a white LED with a filter for R, G, and B.  What I thought the poster above me was referring to was having the light come from R, G, and B LED's.  But individually, not ganged together.  LED's have very predictable and tight spectral emissions.  They then, just as with any trilum display, are mitigated by the LCD array, because the display is still an LCD.

 

But my take on what he said is just wrong anyway: it would then be no different from a 4K version of Sony's Crystal LED (with a pointless LCD on top), which is not possible, so .... nevermind I guess.  *dazed and confused*.  Too much information flying at once.

post #54 of 167
As far as I know, Sony is not using R, G and B LEDs... That would be prohibitive cost-wise.. That said, the reps there are very good at marketing, less so at technical.

Sharp's full array local dimming set looked like nothing to write home about. I doubt anyone will care when it arrives.
post #55 of 167
Did Sony really drop quantum dots? I thought that the Triluminous sets last year were fairly well reviewed.
post #56 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

Did Sony really drop quantum dots? I thought that the Triluminous sets last year were fairly well reviewed.

They told me they hadn't but apparently told Merson they had. I tend to believe they told him the truth, but might or might not have time to confirm.

They were well received.
post #57 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The quantum dot film is absolutely a worthwhile improvement - it means you can use blue LEDs rather than white LEDs in your backlight, and because QD film can be highly tuned, it gives you very pure red, green, and blue light.

Look at the Kindle Fire HDX (which uses blue LEDs and QD film) compared to the other two displays using "white" LEDs for their backlight:

Funny thing about the HDX...using blue LEDs turns out to be a risky choice for a tablet, because it makes backlight bleed visible, which would be invisible with white LEDs (when displaying text on a white background). Amazon felt compelled to put a disclaimer on the product:

"...As a result of using these blue LEDs, you may notice a very narrow, faint blue tint around the edge of the device when looking at items with a white background, such as books or web pages..."

Not an issue for TVs...
post #58 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 
Did Sony really drop quantum dots? I thought that the Triluminous sets last year were fairly well reviewed.

that is what Geoff Morrison - hdguru says. My guess is that quantum dots as well as RBG LEDs are to expensive.
Quote:
According to a Sony rep, this year's TVs don't use quantum dots. My guess is RGB LED, but when we find out details, we'll let you know.
http://hdguru.com/sony-2014-tv-lineup-ultra-hd-4k-triluminos-and-more/

AVS member steve1971 was told by Sony that the 2014 top of the line X950B is a Direct Lit Local Dimming, not a Full Array Local Dimming which means that it has significantly fewer LEDs across the back of the panel.

Sony's site is still claiming that it is a FALD confused.gif
http://store.sony.com/gsi/webstore/WFS/SNYNA-SNYUS-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewProduct-Start?SKU=27-XBR65X950B&affiliateCustomId=6146852&CJURL=http://store.sony.com/gsi/webstore/WFS/SNYNA-SNYUS-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewProduct-Start?SKU=27-XBR65X950B&camp=CJ_DF&clickId=10396361&affiliateId=8wfkplnowic6&XID=A:6146852:CJ
post #59 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

that is what Geoff Morrison - hdguru says. My guess is that quantum dots as well as RBG LEDs are to expensive.
What do you need the QD film for if you're using RGB LEDs? You already have very pure sources of red, green, and blue light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

AVS member steve1971 was told by Sony that the 2014 top of the line X950B is a Direct Lit Local Dimming, not a Full Array Local Dimming which means that it has significantly fewer LEDs across the back of the panel.
I'm not sure why "direct lit local dimming" would imply anything different than "full array local dimming".
post #60 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

that is what Geoff Morrison - hdguru says. My guess is that quantum dots as well as RBG LEDs are to expensive.
What do you need the QD film for if you're using RGB LEDs? You already have very pure sources of red, green, and blue light.

 

This is what I was getting at.  But I was wrong, because it requires an LED for each and every subpixel, which has only been done with Sony's Crystal LED, and only at 2K.

 

If you're using filters, even if you have a "white" backlight composed not of white LEDs (blue + yellow phosphor), but a blend of red, green, and blue, and even though you've got 3 very tightly defined spectral emitters, the red can still "leak" a little through a green or blue filter.


Edited by tgm1024 - 1/8/14 at 10:26am
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