new Key scaler - Page 2  

I postponed buying a Leeza because of the new version coming out. So my question is Do I need to purchase both units to get the same specs as the original Leeza (except for upgraded performance)? Do we get a discount if we buy both? Any pricing yet? How about ship dates? Thanks, Helfy

Michael,

WOW, I think this is the first scaler that offers true DVI with native rate. AFAIK, no other scaler claims native rate through DVI. Definitely not for all these screens.

OK, I'm REALLY happy I didn't get a scaler until now, this really looks like it's the one for me!!! Having a NEC display with DVI, and a DVD player with SDI, it looks like a completely digital path is finally available to me!

Couple of issues on my list:
1. SVideo, any reason why you guys are using BNC over standard SVideo connectors? I know those connectors a shoddy. I can also understand why you used BNCs on LEEZA (you needed 75 Ohm connectors, since the same connectors could be used as several types of inputs). However, I don't see the logic of using BNCs over regular SVideo connectors on this particular product. BTW, I think that Extron is the only other company except KeyDigital that uses BNC connectors for SVideo transmission...

2. The patters from AVIA and the built in patterns serve a completely different function. The idea (pioneered by Mark Rejhon with his HTPC patterns) is a simple set of patterns (the original was 1 set) that basically allow you to calibrate the HTPC (in this case the scaler) to native rate. You basically adjust the width, height, position, dot frequency and dot clock so that there are no bands (i.e., that a single pixel on the scaler is a single pixel on the screen). It was using these patterns that I ended up figuring out that that Rock was unable to produce native rate on my Fujitsu and I ended up returning it. Basically, I used three patterns to deduce this - the alternating vertical and alternating horizontal to calibrate horizontal and vertical position) and the alternating point to verify the bands were gone.

On some projectors (e.g., DILA), this is critical to produce a reasonable picture, it's almost impossible to calibrate it to a scaler without them. This is why the Rock had such an edge on DILA projectors.

I will also email a copy of this directly to Mike.

Helfy,

almost all the features that were on the LEEZA are here (and ALOT more). The main things they removed were audio switching (not sure how critical that feature is, since most people switch that through their A/V receivers) and the number of inputs has changed.

If you need alot more inputs (although the new specs appear to be more than enough for anyone) you can use KeyDigital's new switcher.

I would love to see the switcher feature a 1394 "Firewire" Input capability.

The only product I know of that does is the Miranda DT-4101 & it is quite pricey!

Thanks, damon

Although I'm sure that it must have already been mentioned somewhere earlier, can someone please tell me what the anticipated price point will be for each of these Key Digital units (scaler and switcher)?

Regarding audio switching/follow - I am currently using an Extron System 10 Plus switcher. Two great capabilities of this switcher that the manual does not mention is:

1. It switches Y, Pr, Pb (component) flawlessly. The manual only mentions RGB, RGBS, RGBHV, composite and s-vid capabilities. The engineers I spoke with at Extron told me that Y, Pr, Pb is a different animal and is not compatible with the swicther. When I told them that is does work, they put me on hold - when they returned they said "whadya know!?" as they apparently ran a quick test.

2. Using component inputs to the Extron leaves two BNCs empty/free (the H and V). Either one of these empty high-bandwidth inputs CAN THEN be used for digital audio switching/follow. It works out great - especially nice is that eliminates having to screw around with the Phoenix captive scew connectors which most broadcast grade switchers seem to use for audio.

After looking at a picture of the Leeza, it looks like it (and presumably the new Key Digital) will also be able to do digital audio switching in much the same manner.

damon,

There are enough specs for iEEE 1394 video transport methods today as their are camcorders... There simply is no way that a scaler can be made to work with these yet. Even off the shelf equipment like DVD recorders have a hard time working with all the different firewire combos. I wouldn't expect scalers for firewire to show up unless firewire STBs come out (doesn't look like that will happen - HDCP/DVI/HDMI ones look like they will take the cake).

WT,

Anything that switches RGBHV will switch component - it uses the same bandwidth requirements (and H&V should pass digital audio without a problem, not sure about analog - probably yes), so whom ever you spoke to at Extron is just an ordinary idiot working there, not someone with brains in their head...

Hi Helfy

You do not need to buy 2 versions. The original digital Leeza units are all sold out. The new scaler is a stand alone scaler, and is different than the original digital Leeza. We are trying to have units available at CEDIA and price will be known in a month as soon as we know all our costs.
Thank you

Hi Joel,

I will try to borrow 2 new Pioneer PLasma's for CEDIA show so we can run it in NT/DVI.
Thank you

Hi Ofer,

I just confirmed with Mike T, the S-video is not BNC, but standard S-video connector. We will TRY, to include test patterns suggested.
Thank you

Hi Damon,

After CEDIA, we will again take new product requests. If you could be so kind and email your suggestion to us in October to mike@keydigital.com and cc me.
Thank you

Ofer.

You are correct on RGBHV switching, it will do component as well. We sell RGBHV distribution amplifiers that can all distribute component with a break out cable.
Thank you

Hi WT-46809

The price on the scaler is not yet available because we are waiting to get all manufacturing costs. Hopefully next month, it will be available. We are introducing 2 separate products 1 in a scaler and the other is a A/V switcher. The switcher is $1499 and has a fancy front plate for HT look. We learned the front plate designs from JLM and take our hat off to him, as he is the master of the metal art.

By the way, we have finalized on the scaler name. Since we spent so much time and money on Digital Leeza, and most everyone called it Leeza, we will take advantage of it and call it "HD Leeza"
Thank you

Just to understand again:

The switcher will switch rgbhv? What bandwidth will it have?

Its a true matrix switcher..I can specify any of the 8 inputs for each output, simultaneously?

"... so whom ever you spoke to at Extron is just an ordinary idiot working there, not someone with brains in their head..."

Somewhat harsh, no?


Michael:

Thanks for the price info on the switcher - seems pretty reasonable considering the price tags of other stand alone switchers out there!

Hey Michael,

That's fantastic news!!! Can't wait to see the unit live (worth coming to CEDIA to see!).

Will you have the same type of front plates that JLM thought up? They are REALLY nice! I hope you collaborate with him again to create an attractive design on HD LEEZA.

I think you are right - alot of people are now very specific about what they put into their HT, and will not put in something that would make it ugly... I know I couldn't wait to get rid of my ugly Onkyo DVD player. It had good PQ (not even close to my RP56, though), but damn, was it ugly...

Also important for HT, don't forget to get silent fans. Noise is a definite factor for Home Theater.

One last remark for all us Pronto users: make sure the unit comes with discrete I/R codes for on, off, input selection and aspect ratio. Basically, if you have a remote with numbers (like channels) - make sure that you press 1 and input 1 shows up, etc... Lots of us have elaborate macros to turn on our systems and not everyone can afford RS232 controllers (e.g., Crestron).

WT,

It is somewhat harsh, but if extron's techies don't know they can switch YPbPr, what else would you call them?

Maybe this has already been answered, but will there be an upgrade path for current digital Leeza owners? E.g. will you allow people to trade up with some cash plus a digital Leeza (I love my Leeza but this product sounds even better).

Never mind my prior post -- I see that Michael already said current digital Leeza owners will have an upgrade trade-inpath at a marginal cost.

But here's one that hasn't been answered: will the unit have any non-linear stretch modes similar to pioneer's 'wide' mode. I use my current digital Leeza only for my dvds, and the only reason I don't use it for my regular TWC cable viewing is the absence of non-linear stretch (I love the pioneer wide mode).

jlm,

No doubt - your design was simply brilliant.

The remote of the original LEEZA was the same as you*know*who. Personally, this seems like a classic case for a pronto NEO or another universal remote bundle (for an extra amount of money, maybe). With discrete codes (or RC5 codes) who needs a remote anyway?!

Alan, I agree - but there's a strong misunderstanding regarding non-linear wide modes. You and I are talking about wide mode (i.e., the ratio of stretching for vertical and horizontal not being 1:1). There's also a "fish-eye" non-linear stretch (where various portions of the screen get different stretch aspects).

Fujitsu and NEC have similar wide modes, but I find Fujitsu's wide1 mode to be ideal (a combination of non-linear stretch and top-bottom trim).

jlm: the HD leeza scales ALL inputs and feeds it out Native Rate through the DVI... ( that includes ALL HD )

so if you send 1080i to the HD leeza, it will scale it to your NR ( 1280x768) or whatever --- and send it out the DVI :D

Hi asinshesq,

I would never suggest re-cabling to try something out. But I was wondering if while you were running cable through your Leeza if you ever tried setting your Leeza screen aspect ratio to 1:33 and setting your Leeza source aspect ratio to 1:33 Full Screen (not letterbox).

I find that the setting really does offer very little distortion.

Did you try that out and if so did you still find the amount of distortion intolerable?

asinshesq

Can you show me where Michael said that they would be doing a trade in plus cash. I know they are going to give Leeza owners a discounted price on the new HD scaler, but I dont remember seeing that trade in. I would love that to be true. Can you point me to that comment

Danny H. I think it was in a response to you early in this thread, probably pg.1. If I remember correctly he also indicated that the scaler and switcher were two discrete products in that same thread.

Michael:

The HD LEEZA sounds absolutley amazing! Given the extraordinary amount of capabilities it will have when compared to the FNR, CS-1, DVS204, etc., the eventual price for this baby is making me a little nervous!

A couple of questions that I hope have not already been addressed:

1. Why are most manufacturers, such as Key Digital, still including composite inputs on their high-end video processing equipment? It seems that the valuable input space could be better served by offering additional s-vid or (even better) component inputs. Folks that require composite connectivity, which I believe are becoming rare, could always opt for a composite to s-vid adapter. Is it that industrial video equipment used by broadcast companies still have a need for composite connectivity?

2. You mentioned that " The unit will scale any DVI input including 480p, 720p, and 1080i to DVI output..." Does this also apply to s-vid and component input or only to DVI input? If it does apply to s-vid and component input, does this mean that I can feed the scaler a component input from my HD STB (set to 1080i) and the scaler will accept the signal? If so, will the scaler have a feature for each input that would allow me to select, for example, "off" or "pass-thru" for a 1080i? If I am on a SD channel, would I also be able to select 480p, 540p, 1080i upscaling? I would want the scaler to output these choices via a component cable (or RGBHV breakout if necessary).

I mention this because only one of my three HD STBs has a "native" output choice. With the other two I am forced to select 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i which makes it difficult when using scalers that only accept 480i. It would be much more convenient to run one set of component cables from each HD STB to the scaler without having to use a seperate HD pass-thru input on the scaler for my HD.

Thanks again for your valuable input.

Actually, Ofer, I hate to disagree with you, but what you describe is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking an image that already fills the screen vertically but has side bars running up and down; you then take that image and stretch it non-linearly in the horizontal direction -- the center gets pretty much left alone and the sides get correspondingly more stretched. This is the Pioneer 'wide' mode, and I think it is the Panny 'just' mode too. Fuji's got something similar as well, but I don't remember what it's called. Anyway, this looks much much better than simply stretching the horizontal out to fill the screen, for the simple reason that the camera tends to focus on what's going on inthe middle and that doesn't get altered by this mode.

People (like yours truly) who have older Laserdisk players may need a composite input for them. Laserdisk, after all, is an intrinsically composite format, and the later players with S-ouputs have internal comb filters that may or may not be better than the comb filter in an external scaler. The comb filter was always one of Faroudja's big strengths, and even someone who owns a player with an S-output may well find that running the composite output into an external scaler results in better PQ.

Robert:

Very interesting - have never owned a LD before so I had no idea. So an adapter could, in some cases, deterioriate the PQ? Iwas under the impression that svid adapters could improve composite signals because of the chroma separation they offered. Just can't always believe what you read, eh?

Actually, when your getting your video signal from a component that has a cheap comb filter in it (e.g. a cheap cable box from TWC, or a cheap vcr), you may be better off taking its composite out and feeding it into the scalar/de-interlacer than you would be taking the S-video out, since the S-video output of the component may have unacceptable dot crawl. More choices are better than less!

The faceplate? Fact RGB sucks as a transmission medium. Answer for me is to mount the new scaler in my drop ceiling right next to my 9 inch CRT and run it entirely by remote control. Idea is to keep the RGB run very short. Also I will mount my HD SAT receiver there as well. The DVD goes where it can be very accessible like the audio processor. Long run for the SDI cable from the DVD to the video processor is not a problem. Long runs for SDI cable no problem and no signal loss.

Humey,

I didn't see it either, I think smyth is wrong.

WT-46809,
1. I think you're wrong on several levels. First, there are lots of VCRs and other types of equipment that is still limited to composite. In my case, my VCR is only composite (Svideo VCRs are just unbelievably rare and expensive down here). I currently use a composite to SVIDEO converter (from Radio Shack), in order to allow the VCR to be switched through my A/V receiver. However, the converter does an awful job and PQ is terrible. Second, as was suggested above, there are STBs that run composite natively and produce a lousy Svideo image. Running composite with a good comb filter can actually improve PQ.

2. I don't see what the problem is... You have two types of inputs, DVI and component that KeyDigital specifically stated they will scale up to native rate. So, if your STB produces 480i, 720p, 1080i or anything else - it will get scaled up to your native rate.

asinshesq,

OK, lets change terms here (we're constantly getting confused by incorrect terms) - lets call "my" streching mode "Wide" mode (constant stretching but with trimming on top and bottom and slightly deformation). Lets call your mode "Panoramic wide" mode (where stretching is non-linear).

Mark H.,

Lots of people with projectors still use rack mounted equipment - which they still like to show off... People with plasmas and other types of screens can mount the units alongside (or below) the display so they are in constant view. In my case, my equipment "surrounds" the screen. It's important that it looks attractive.

Maybe this can be an option, like it was for LEEZA...