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new Key scaler - Page 3  

post #61 of 271
I like the cheap faceplate option. A deinterlacer/scaller is a faceless black box to me (at least if all the controls are accessible via remote). Some existing ones have no controls on the faceplate anyway.
post #62 of 271
Thread Starter 
cclear:
i read all the michael luckey postings on this and can not find a definitive answer. Yes, the output is native rate, and the output can be dvi at native rate, but the only pertinent comment from michael was:
"The unit will scale any DVI input including 480p, 720p, and 1080i to DVI output. So basicallly it will scale any input up, down and cross convert. "

emphasis on the "any dvi input" phrase; and I'm wondering about the "basically,...cross convert" statement.

the original Leeza literature was also misleading (unintentionally) on this same subject and Key's position at that time was that it was too...(difficult, costly or whatever) to implement DVI for HD.

so my question remains: can 1080i HD, input as rgbhv, be output as DVI, NR?

as a side, what outputs will the HD Leeza have?

and here is another one: if the unit could output 1394 firewire, we could record HD (anything) with the JVC 3000 deck, currently hampered by the dearth of firewire HD material. this would be an amazing and extremely valuable option.
post #63 of 271
jlm,

From what I understand the unit will input HD (1080i, 720p) through either DVI or component. It will then output DVI or through regular output options (I didn't see specs, but I'm assuming RGBHV and Component out).

I think KeyDigital should do their best to try and avoid potential legal hastles like allowing HD content to be recorded natively at this point.

In any case, 1394 is not supposed to carry anything beyond SD uncompressed. There are also varied standards on firewire...

It'll get REALLY interesting when scalers provide an optional HD-SDI input and HD-SDI outputs + recorders start recording HD-SDI... IMHO, that's still a looong ways away for us, I'm afraid.
post #64 of 271
jlm: michael can clarify, but here is a quote from the DCS thread

Quote:
As far as 1080i de-interlacing is concerned we basically want to provide a 1 box solution for de-interlacing. Why should a consumer worry what the NT rate is for the display and setup box and dvd, etc... once they buy the scaler they will not have to worry what resoltuion is coming in as we will up, down or cross convert it to displays NATIVE RESOLUTION.
post #65 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by work permit
Just to understand again:

The switcher will switch rgbhv? What bandwidth will it have?

Its a true matrix switcher..I can specify any of the 8 inputs for each output, simultaneously?
Hi Work Permit

It will be a true component audio and pcm video matrix switcher 8 inputs to 3 outputs.
Thank you
post #66 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Hey Michael,

That's fantastic news!!! Can't wait to see the unit live (worth coming to CEDIA to see!).

Will you have the same type of front plates that JLM thought up? They are REALLY nice! I hope you collaborate with him again to create an attractive design on HD LEEZA.

I think you are right - alot of people are now very specific about what they put into their HT, and will not put in something that would make it ugly... I know I couldn't wait to get rid of my ugly Onkyo DVD player. It had good PQ (not even close to my RP56, though), but damn, was it ugly...

Also important for HT, don't forget to get silent fans. Noise is a definite factor for Home Theater.

One last remark for all us Pronto users: make sure the unit comes with discrete I/R codes for on, off, input selection and aspect ratio. Basically, if you have a remote with numbers (like channels) - make sure that you press 1 and input 1 shows up, etc... Lots of us have elaborate macros to turn on our systems and not everyone can afford RS232 controllers (e.g., Crestron).

WT,

It is somewhat harsh, but if extron's techies don't know they can switch YPbPr, what else would you call them?
Hi Ofer,

The faceplates on switcher and HD Leeza will be similar to JML, 8mm front plate, with blue LED's and special button cuts, brushed aluminum with black anadozied.

Ofer, the scaler will have no fans, so really quite.
Thank you
post #67 of 271
I dont see any comments concering a trade in program. Micheael does mention an upgrade path, and I know that means that us Digital Leeza will get a good price on the HD Leeza.

Michael, can you clarify if their will be a trade in program.
post #68 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by jlm
thanks for the comments, michael and ofer! my favorite part was the little olive shaped button recess for on/off...althought i don't think i ever used it!

any idea about the remote control? the last one would lock up now and then, requiring the codes to be reset, and the button labels rubbed off (it also looked exactly like the *** remote!)
will firmware be upgradeable via rs232? what about the upload program?
how about chassis size? the Leeza was a tall one!
Hu JLM

We will have the olive shaped on/off. remote control will be very simple, as we noticed that 99% of users by a Pronto or Universal. firmware upgrade will be rs 232. and the unit will be 2U Rack vs 3 U RAck.
Thank you
post #69 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by asinshesq
Never mind my prior post -- I see that Michael already said current digital Leeza owners will have an upgrade trade-inpath at a marginal cost.

But here's one that hasn't been answered: will the unit have any non-linear stretch modes similar to pioneer's 'wide' mode. I use my current digital Leeza only for my dvds, and the only reason I don't use it for my regular TWC cable viewing is the absence of non-linear stretch (I love the pioneer wide mode).
Hi Alan,

Most likely we will not have time to have non linear mode for CEDIA, but we will work on this feature after CEDIA.
Thank you
post #70 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by jlm
one thing i don't think is completely clear, that was not available on the Leeza:

is HD, 1080i input, (and 480p) fed out as a dvi signal? the leeza could only use rgb out for the HD material, thus we had to have both dvi and rgbhv cable sets between the Leeza and display.
Hi JLM

HD 108Oi input and 480p, 720p will be fed out as RGBHV or DVI.
Thank you
post #71 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by Humey
asinshesq

Can you show me where Michael said that they would be doing a trade in plus cash. I know they are going to give Leeza owners a discounted price on the new HD scaler, but I dont remember seeing that trade in. I would love that to be true. Can you point me to that comment
Hi Humey

All current digital LEEZA owners will have an option to buy the new HD LEEZA at very low price as 1 time upgrade option. It will practically be at our cost via private offering.
Thank you
post #72 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by WT-46809
Michael:

The HD LEEZA sounds absolutley amazing! Given the extraordinary amount of capabilities it will have when compared to the FNR, CS-1, DVS204, etc., the eventual price for this baby is making me a little nervous!

A couple of questions that I hope have not already been addressed:

1. Why are most manufacturers, such as Key Digital, still including composite inputs on their high-end video processing equipment? It seems that the valuable input space could be better served by offering additional s-vid or (even better) component inputs. Folks that require composite connectivity, which I believe are becoming rare, could always opt for a composite to s-vid adapter. Is it that industrial video equipment used by broadcast companies still have a need for composite connectivity?

2. You mentioned that " The unit will scale any DVI input including 480p, 720p, and 1080i to DVI output..." Does this also apply to s-vid and component input or only to DVI input? If it does apply to s-vid and component input, does this mean that I can feed the scaler a component input from my HD STB (set to 1080i) and the scaler will accept the signal? If so, will the scaler have a feature for each input that would allow me to select, for example, "off" or "pass-thru" for a 1080i? If I am on a SD channel, would I also be able to select 480p, 540p, 1080i upscaling? I would want the scaler to output these choices via a component cable (or RGBHV breakout if necessary).

I mention this because only one of my three HD STBs has a "native" output choice. With the other two I am forced to select 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i which makes it difficult when using scalers that only accept 480i. It would be much more convenient to run one set of component cables from each HD STB to the scaler without having to use a seperate HD pass-thru input on the scaler for my HD.

Thanks again for your valuable input.
Hi- WT46809

The beauty of this scaler is that the cost is very reasonable. I am hoping to have MSRP in about a month as soon as we have all our costs in.

1. Better safe than sorry:-)
2. It applies to analog inputs as well. Thats the advantage of this scaler, it will take any input and give you RGBHV or DVI.
Thank you
post #73 of 271
Hi JLM

so my question remains: can 1080i HD, input as rgbhv, be output as DVI, NR?

YES, IT WILL take 1080i HD input as rgbhv, and output as DVI at Native Rate. THATS THE ADVANTAGE. The user does not have to break his/her head will the scaler do this, that, etc... 1 box does it all, I HOPE!

and here is another one: if the unit could output 1394 firewire, we could record HD (anything) with the JVC 3000 deck, currently hampered by the dearth of firewire HD material. this would be an amazing and extremely valuable option. [/b][/quote]

We have a prototype that will record HD its HD PVR and will do componet, rgbhv, 1394, DVI, etc... and record it on hard disk. We just made a huge digital breaktrhough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No time to introduce at CEDIA, but I am pushing for CES in January. I guess this is another topic.
Thank you
post #74 of 271
You have our undivided attention!

I'm sure that this is new & late breaking news , but lots of AVS'ers would like to hear more on this development.
post #75 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by damon
You have our undivided attention!

I'm sure that this is new & late breaking news , but lots of AVS'ers would like to hear more on this development.
Hi Damon,

Since the product is at its infancy stage, there is really not much to say. However, WE WILL LISTEN! So please list your needs, wants recommendations, realistic MSRP, etc...
Thank you
post #76 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
I like the cheap faceplate option. A deinterlacer/scaller is a faceless black box to me (at least if all the controls are accessible via remote). Some existing ones have no controls on the faceplate anyway.
Hi Mark,

You are correct, however, most of the endusers seem to enjoy just looking at their equipment, and the actual look of the box in HT market is important to an avarage consumer.

When we used to be in broadcast market, the boxes were very dull looking as those guys never cared about the look. it took us a while to realize that HT market is a very sensitive to the look. So new front plates will be 8mm thick, laser etched, black anadozed, blue LED's, olive buttons. This look was adapted from JLM, as he made some excellent custom front plates for KD as well as some users of digital Leeza.
Thank you
post #77 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by Cclear
jlm: michael can clarify, but here is a quote from the DCS thread

Hi Cclear

You are correct!
Thank you
post #78 of 271
Hey Michael,

About the pricing - you're right. I saw what happened when a company miscalculates their initial costs and changes pricing afterwards (we won't mention the name, since it's now banned - but the current price is more than double the initial price that was planned for it).

Hey, no fans?! YEY.

Michael, so the unit takes SD or HD from RGBHV, component or DVI and outputs native rate via RGBHV, component or DVI? Sounds like a dream!

Regarding the HD-PVR. Will it work like a VCR basically? Will it also be able to record SD from SDI/component/SVideo/etc.?

asinshesq,

sounds like for the price of the tradeup - you get two scalers (does that mean that people will start putting projectors in their bedrooms now?!)
post #79 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Hey Michael,

About the pricing - you're right. I saw what happened when a company miscalculates their initial costs and changes pricing afterwards (we won't mention the name, since it's now banned - but the current price is more than double the initial price that was planned for it).

Hey, no fans?! YEY.

Michael, so the unit takes SD or HD from RGBHV, component or DVI and outputs native rate via RGBHV, component or DVI? Sounds like a dream!

Regarding the HD-PVR. Will it work like a VCR basically? Will it also be able to record SD from SDI/component/SVideo/etc.?

asinshesq,

sounds like for the price of the tradeup - you get two scalers (does that mean that people will start putting projectors in their bedrooms now?!)
Hi Ofer,

YES, the unit will take SD and HD from RGBHV, component, DVI and output native rate via RGBHV or DVI. ITS A DREAM MACHINE:-)

The HD-PVR will be exactly like VCR! I can't answer the question what it will record, we only got it to work last night SUNDAY. It will be best if you make the recommendations, as i will not be able to provide any answers at this point, I am sorry!

You are right at the end of the day customers who bought digital Leeza and who would like to take advantage of HD Leeza, will have 2 scalers for the price of 1. KD WILL NOT MAKE ANY PROFIT ON THIS 1 TIME PRIVATE UPGRADE! Customers will be paying our cost. This is the least we can do for the customers who have supported KD, and we APOLOGIES to all our customers for the fact that KD could not make this UPGRADE into existing digital Leeza units. However, KD believes that whatever happens, happens for the best and the new scaler HD Leeza is going to be the result of it. So at the end of the day, you will have 2 scalers for the price of 1.
THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DEAL WITH KD. We pay and you play!
OUR DEDICATION IS TO YOU OUR CUSTOMERS.
Thank you
post #80 of 271
Thread Starter 
good news all around!

thanks KEY!
post #81 of 271
Okay, I am going to embarrass myself, but can someone explain to me what Michael means by 2 for the price of 1. No matter how low the price of the new scaler is, you would still not get two for one.

If I paid 6k for the old Leeza that means, that the new Leeza would be zero in order to get two for the price of one

or is he saying that for the original 6K, a new buyer can buy 2 scalers for the price of one old one.

Lay it on me, I am so confused
post #82 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by michaellucky
......So at the end of the day, you will have 2 scalers for the price of 1.
THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DEAL WITH KD. We pay and you play!
OUR DEDICATION IS TO YOU OUR CUSTOMERS.
Thank you
Wow. There's customer support and then...there's customer SUPPORT! This is an interesting experiment -- will the word of mouth benefit KD gets out of the general approach it takes with its customers (as evidenced by this latest example as well as past events like the time Michael visited my apartment a couple of hours after I first reported having a problem and showed me what I was doing wrong) flow through to the bottom line. I sure hope so!
post #83 of 271
Michael,

Will the RS232 controller codes be available to the end user?

Tony C
post #84 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by Humey
Okay, I am going to embarrass myself, but can someone explain to me what Michael means by 2 for the price of 1. No matter how low the price of the new scaler is, you would still not get two for one.

Lay it on me, I am so confused
I guess what this means is that an old Leeza user only pay what the "upgrade" would cost and then get a new Leeza and still get to keep his old one! Am I right?
This due to the fact that the upgrade is not possible to perform on the old Leeza without totally remaking it...

That is what I call customer support! Way to go KD (If I got it right ;))

Please correct me if I am wrong

//Kris
post #85 of 271
Kris & Humey,

That's exactly what I understand!

People were basically asking for a discount if they trade in their old LEEZAs. Basically, what Michael is saying is that they'll give the same price to existing LEEZA users as if it was a trade-in, but then they get to keep their LEEZAs. As I said - it looks like it's time for alot of people to start considering to get that second HT up and running (for the bedroom...).

Michael - this sounds really terrific. Let me think about it, I'll send in my suggestions. Right now I'm using a lousy PVR for SD (lipsync problems, it occasionally forgets to record, hanging problems). There are LOTS and LOTS of places around the world (primarily Europe, australia and other locations) where there's currently no way to make digital recordings of SD or HD. A unit that'll record good quality SD/HD video in the original format and replay it - sounds like it has a very WIDE market!
post #86 of 271
Thread Starter 
i've been following the HD recording forum, and the situation boils down to this:

the JVC 3000 HD-VHS deck does a great job of making digital recordings on VHS tape with a 28mhz bandwidth capacity. it will also playback d-theater tapes. Problem is, it can only record HD from its firewire input and there are almost no devices out there that can provide HD via firewire. Samsung is about to release a stb that will. the primary source of HD is via cable, sat or ota (D-theater tapes are protected.) so far, 169time has released a mod to the rca DTC-100 stb that will allow the recording of ota HD, and is working on a tweak that will also allow the mod to record sat HD. that is the only stb with a recordable out out there so far. now if the HD-Leeza had the firewire out, you could presumably record anything via that link. (the 169time mod is around $700, done to your DTC-100)
post #87 of 271
A component input HD-PVR would be a HOT item. Pricing would depend on configuration. Heck, I'd be happy with just the board leaving the details to me to fill in. Were you thinking that it would also encode 5.1 also?
Thanks!!
post #88 of 271
Quote:
Originally posted by michaellucky



You are right at the end of the day customers who bought digital Leeza and who would like to take advantage of HD Leeza, will have 2 scalers for the price of 1. KD WILL NOT MAKE ANY PROFIT ON THIS 1 TIME PRIVATE UPGRADE! Customers will be paying our cost. This is the least we can do for the customers who have supported KD, and we APOLOGIES to all our customers for the fact that KD could not make this UPGRADE into existing digital Leeza units. However, KD believes that whatever happens, happens for the best and the new scaler HD Leeza is going to be the result of it. So at the end of the day, you will have 2 scalers for the price of 1.
THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DEAL WITH KD. We pay and you play!
OUR DEDICATION IS TO YOU OUR CUSTOMERS.
Thank you

Depending on what the price is, if i do my math correctly it's probably more like 2 for 1.5. lets say the discount price is half of the 6k leeza-3k. then a person who bought a leeza last month for 6k and wants to buy the new one for 3k really paid 9k for two processors. if the used leeza drops in value accordingly, it might only be worth 2k for resale, meaning the real cost for the new leeza at 7k. not that great a deal for someone who recently purchased a leeza. now, my numbers are probably off here, but you see the formula. at best i would say, unless you wanted 2 scalers in the first place, you spent too much money. but, i could be wrong. i'm not saying that selling a component to past customers for cost is a bad deal. just that your not really getting 2 for 1.
post #89 of 271
James,

No one is making anyone make the upgrade + the upgrade might primarily appeal to *some* users (people with HD). Most other companies do not let you have an upgrade path at all - or they let you trade up (in which case, you've paid 9K, as in your example, for one scaler).

I guess this upgrade would be appropriate for people wishing to do HD scaling. If someone doesn't need the HD LEEZA and they currently have a LEEZA - why would they pay for it, I don't follow your logic.

They currently do not have another alternative (until Vigatec puts out their Dune-F series scaler), or they can keep the unit they currently have.

Also, who knows what the market rate for the LEEZA will be after HD LEEZA comes out. You're assuming it'll be worth 1/3rd of it's original list price, why?!
post #90 of 271
This is not an upgrade, it is a preferred customer dicount on a new unit. i didn't mean anybody was forced, my point was if they did they would not be getting 2 scalers for the price of one.

my logic is based on the supposition that the new leeza will have better picture quality on all inputs than the old one. if this is not the case, little reason to change.

i'm assuming a used leeza will be worth less than a new hd leeza costs. in my example, as i stated, i guessed at the numbers based on the limited info i have. they probably are off. i am guessing kd's cost is not over 3k. i may be wrong.

but, my point is you aren't getting two scalers for the price of one. your getting 2 scalers for 8-10k. not that great a deal in my opinion. if the leeza had been out for awhile and the owners could have enjoyed it for a year, it might be a better value. but if you just bought a leeza it would not be.

P.S. i see where the confusion is. i edited my post above to say "wants" in stead of "has", my bad.
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