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2014 Vizio Thread All models - Page 41

post #1201 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlconner View Post

Vizio's web site has a CES page with features for all of their 2014 models. As for the models, the M series is coming out now, and the P series is still in the air, (I asked Vizio customer service last night and they still would not give a release date for P series or R series). Rumor mill is the P series will be in the August/Sept timeframe. R series is most likely at the end of the year, if this year at all.

Dustin

Wait! So is the 2014 M-Series really coming out now? I've been waiting on these.
post #1202 of 2069
We should start seeing them in the next few weeks from everything I am seeing/hearing.

Dustin

EDIT: I may have to ask another Vizio customer service guy to verify. Last night they said no info on the P series, but maybe they misunderstood me when I asked about the 2014 M's. I just found an article about a week old saying the M series is later this year. Will let you know if I get a chance to contact them again today.
Edited by dlconner - 2/21/14 at 8:03am
post #1203 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So my entire reasoning is... Foxconn is making 120-inch TVs... Those are obviously the Vizio Reference sets... If the 120-inch R series is real, the 65-inch must be real. That's a set of inferences based on the words of a guy who is pretty credible and made a public statement. I have done well with less in the past. If Gou was blustering; everything that flows from his statement could, of course, disappear just as quickly.

You know the industry far better than me, Rogo, so if you say Gou is pretty credible, that is all I needed to hear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's pretty likely this panel comes with a BLU and the necessary wiring to handle the dimming zones, yes. And that the BLU includes the same LEDs for both, yes. It doesn't have to be that way, but it seems pretty likely.

And do you make anything of Toshiba's claim to using 'Toshiba's own Superbright LEDs'?? Toshiba is manufacturing the LEDs being used on these panels but Foxconn can purchase for use on anyone's panel? Who do you believe had primary responsibility for the design and specification of these panels, Vizio, Toshiba, or Foxconn (or a combination of the above)??


Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Let's hope Gou was serious and he's building Vizio 120-inch TVs at the end of this year and they go on sale for $49,999 (or less).

(Incidentally, as I wrote that, I wondered to myself how many 80-inch sets were sold last year as those are already priced at a level where I believe price is not a factor. While there are people who would like to pay less, there are not really people with a house big enough for one that can't afford a $4000 TV if a giant TV mattered to them. In the U.S., we've finally gotten to the point where more than 1/4 of TVs sold are actually above 50 inches so it's probably not close to 1%, but it could be more than 100,000 at this point. If a 120-inch was, say, sub $20,000, it seems like that model alone would eventually start to move up towards that level... It would take time, of course, but if the power consumption were reasonable, the design were good, the TV could "float" a smaller image when you didn't want to use all 120 inches, etc. etc.... I mean I might redesign my wall to accommodate such a thing if I could mask off part of the screen and use just 60 inches a lot of the time... Would you?)

Interesting thought - the central 60" of a 120" panel is a full-blown 60" 1080p TV... But the WAF of such a large monstrosity would be very low, so forget about use in the living room - dedicated home theater only. I've only got the living room right now, so at least until I move to another house, I would pass on the 120" (even if I could afford it :-) in favor of the 65"...
post #1204 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlconner View Post

We should start seeing them in the next few weeks from everything I am seeing/hearing.

Dustin

EDIT: I may have to ask another Vizio customer service guy to verify. Last night they said no info on the P series, but maybe they misunderstood me when I asked about the 2014 M's. I just found an article about a week old saying the M series is later this year. Will let you know if I get a chance to contact them again today.

Yes Dustin, another poster who claimed to have credible sources within Vizio claimed that the larger E Series panels will be out 'soon' but that the M Series will only be out in May (after a full one-year run since the introduction of the 2013 M Series in May 2013) and that the P Series would be out in August.

Interested in any further details you may learn from today's contact...

-fafrd
post #1205 of 2069
I still contend that Vizio has made a major mistake by leaving such a huge size gap in their R series (assuming it ever sees the light of day) between the 120" and the next size down, 65". That's a hole you can drive a 747 through. Sony did the same thing with their FALD displays, leaving a gap between their 85" and next size down, 65". Not quite as bad, but still a gap.

Again, using typical viewing distances that the average person has been accustomed to, 65" will be too small to see all of the 4K goodness there is. There's just no way around physics and eye anatomy. I really don't see most people cutting their viewing distances in half. If I were single, perhaps, but married, forget it. The WAF is just not there for this kind of rearrangement of furniture. If anyone doubts the argument regarding viewing distance, just go to any BB or Sony store. Stand 8-10' away from even the best 4K demo reel. The impact of 4K just falls off precipitously at those distances. Start off close and then back to the 8'-10' distance. It's a huge falloff in detail, unless you're Superman.

Remember, these are the best demo reels you'll see. I don't expect we'll see this kind of quality from streaming or, down the road, broadcast & satellite.

So that leaves the more likely to arrive P series with a relatively small array of LD zones, or the edge lit offerings from Sony & Samsung. Even there as far as Vizio is concerned, with 70" being the top end, I'll contend once again, too small. Better than 65" yes, but still not optimal.

IMO you need something more in the area of 80"+ to really keep the furniture where it is and appreciate the full (or near full) benefits of 4K. Sadly, even an 80" 4K display at about 10' is still not deriving all the 4K detail there is.

We get closer to the real deal with the 78" & 79" offerings from Sony & Samsung as opposed to the 70" Vizio. That's not a bad compromise in terms of size/viewing distance/price.

We'll have to wait and see how these edge lit designs turn out in terms of effectiveness. I know Samsung does a very nice job with some of their edge lit displays. Even though it's 'only' 70", it will be interesting to see how effective the Vizio P series turns out to be.

Should be an interesting year. smile.gif
post #1206 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I still contend that Vizio has made a major mistake by leaving such a huge size gap in their R series (assuming it ever sees the light of day) between the 120" and the next size down, 65". That's a hole you can drive a 747 through. Sony did the same thing with their FALD displays, leaving a gap between their 85" and next size down, 65". Not quite as bad, but still a gap.

Again, using typical viewing distances that the average person has been accustomed to, 65" will be too small to see all of the 4K goodness there is. There's just no way around physics and eye anatomy. I really don't see most people cutting their viewing distances in half. If I were single, perhaps, but married, forget it. The WAF is just not there for this kind of rearrangement of furniture. If anyone doubts the argument regarding viewing distance, just go to any BB or Sony store. Stand 8-10' away from even the best 4K demo reel. The impact of 4K just falls off precipitously at those distances. Start off close and then back to the 8'-10' distance. It's a huge falloff in detail, unless you're Superman.

Remember, these are the best demo reels you'll see. I don't expect we'll see this kind of quality from streaming or, down the road, broadcast & satellite.

So that leaves the more likely to arrive P series with a relatively small array of LD zones, or the edge lit offerings from Sony & Samsung. Even there as far as Vizio is concerned, with 70" being the top end, I'll contend once again, too small. Better than 65" yes, but still not optimal.

IMO you need something more in the area of 80"+ to really keep the furniture where it is and appreciate the full (or near full) benefits of 4K. Sadly, even an 80" 4K display at about 10' is still not deriving all the 4K detail there is.

We get closer to the real deal with the 78" & 79" offerings from Sony & Samsung as opposed to the 70" Vizio. That's not a bad compromise in terms of size/viewing distance/price.

We'll have to wait and see how these edge lit designs turn out in terms of effectiveness. I know Samsung does a very nice job with some of their edge lit displays. Even though it's 'only' 70", it will be interesting to see how effective the Vizio P series turns out to be.

Should be an interesting year. smile.gif

To be perfectly honest, to me the draw of the Reference series isn't necessarily the 4K, although that is a bare marketing prerequisite for flagship series these days. To me the real draw is the High Dynamic Range (HDR), 10-bit color, and 800-nit backlight. The real question I would like discussed is how those parameters translate in terms of viewing distance for any given size. More specifically, does sitting 10' vs. 6' really change the apparent contrast ratio, color gamut, PQ of the experience or does the window like effect disappear. Does anyone really have this experience yet to opine given the lack of this content and capability in the consumer market? I know Dolby Vision folks did screenings when developing their quality algorithms, I'm just curious to see how those aspects of the reference series are impacted by distance.
post #1207 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Yes Dustin, another poster who claimed to have credible sources within Vizio claimed that the larger E Series panels will be out 'soon' but that the M Series will only be out in May (after a full one-year run since the introduction of the 2013 M Series in May 2013) and that the P Series would be out in August.

Interested in any further details you may learn from today's contact...

-fafrd

I hope it's sooner than May or I may just get a 2013 M-Series or Sony soon.
post #1208 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Interesting thought - the central 60" of a 120" panel is a full-blown 60" 1080p TV... But the WAF of such a large monstrosity would be very low, so forget about use in the living room - dedicated home theater only. I've only got the living room right now, so at least until I move to another house, I would pass on the 120" (even if I could afford it :-) in favor of the 65"...

The WAF would probably be extremely high if the purchase of "such a large monstrosity" were accompanied by a nicely gift-boxed pair of diamond earrings to be presented to the lady in question. wink.gif
post #1209 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post

The WAF would probably be extremely high if the purchase of "such a large monstrosity" were accompanied by a nicely gift-boxed pair of diamond earrings to be presented to the lady in question. wink.gif

My WAF is being met by having the kitchen and floors redone for my TV wink.gif.
post #1210 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post

...the only console currently that can pull off 1080p games with tricks etc, which is the ps4.

Not true--here's a list of Xbox One and PS4 games and their resolutions/frame rates. It is true that developers are having an easier time getting 1080p out of the PS4; it has a beefier graphics processor and faster memory. Xbox One has a caching scheme to compensate for memory speed, but developers haven't learned to use it well yet. The PS4 will always have a graphics advantage, though.

Sorry for the OT rambling.
post #1211 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Not true--here's a list of Xbox One and PS4 games and their resolutions/frame rates. It is true that developers are having an easier time getting 1080p out of the PS4; it has a beefier graphics processor and faster memory. Xbox One has a caching scheme to compensate for memory speed, but developers haven't learned to use it well yet. The PS4 will always have a graphics advantage, though.

Sorry for the OT rambling.
You said exactly what I said except the xbox is limited due to Making sure 10% of the CPU processing is dedicated to it they only recently removed it. This console has been a major fail for Microsoft they're limited by the ram they used and not having enough power to push everything . The games that will be coming out will max out at 900p and upscale to 1080p keep in mind not the same as how the ps4 deos it which is basically a cheap PC. I could go on the articles are out there and the sales have spoken tons of Xboxs on the shelves while not many ps4 has already sold over 5 mil in 3 months... That's more than the wii u did in a year so the consumer has spoken in this case.
post #1212 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post

Wrapped in spoiler tags to protect the uninterested (Click to show)
You said exactly what I said except the xbox is limited due to Making sure 10% of the CPU processing is dedicated to it they only recently removed it. This console has been a major fail for Microsoft they're limited by the ram they used and not having enough power to push everything . The games that will be coming out will max out at 900p and upscale to 1080p keep in mind not the same as how the ps4 deos it which is basically a cheap PC. I could go on the articles are out there and the sales have spoken tons of Xboxs on the shelves while not many ps4 has already sold over 5 mil in 3 months... That's more than the wii u did in a year so the consumer has spoken in this case.

Wrapped in spoiler tags to protect the uninterested (Click to show)
What you said was that the PS4 is the only console with 1080p native res titles and that was wrong; I didn't say "exactly what you said".

I'm not going to get into an off-topic argument with you here, but that list I linked to is a list of native resolutions--everything not 1080p is upscaled to 1080p. Forza 5 and Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition are two currently shipping 1080p native res Xbox One titles and there are others on that list. Some immediately upcoming titles will be in 1080p on the Xbox One and some won't. The percentage that are in 1080p will increase as the developers get better with the hardware (compare Xbox 360 and PS3 titles at launch to the ones out today). PS4 will always have a graphical advantage, but it will eventually mostly be seen in exclusives.

Xbox One has sold 3.6M versus 5.3M PS4s--that's hardly an "major fail", particularly given that the XB1 costs 25% more; arguably it would have sold as well if not better if the price was the same. I seriously doubt that MS expected it to outsell PS4 given the price difference. Both companies are realizing a profit on the hardware (Xbox 360 and PS3 launched at prices below the cost to manufacture, particularly the PS3), and both companies are far outpacing initial sales of their previous gen products. (Wii U has sold an estimated 6M, so the PS3 hasn't outsold it yet, though both it and the Xbox One most certainly will and soon).

I don't own a PS4 now, but I'm sure that I'll pick one up eventually (probably when Naughty Dog's first title ships). I'm not much into MP run-and-gun shooters and none of the launch PS4 exclusives appeal to me. I do own an Xbox One; Ryse is the best looking game on either platform IMO (several people with both consoles have stated the same opinion in other threads here, some think that KZ looks better).

If you want to continue this debate, PM me; we shouldn't waste more space here.

Edited by michaeltscott - 2/21/14 at 6:01pm
post #1213 of 2069
Every game on the PS4 is 1080p except BF4
post #1214 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rf13 View Post

You will be able to notice but not every detail 10ft is a good distance depending on your eyesight. As far as a gaming device the wii u is so far behind and the Xbox one as well the only console currently that can pull off 1080p games with tricks etc, which is the ps4. The ps3 is capable of it but there's very few games available for both ps3/ps4 platforms in 1080p. IMO a 65-70" would fit your viewing distance if you want 4k vizio. I would say the best test is going to the store and seeing for yourself. When they eventually come out or check out other 4k sets

Nintendo developed Wii U games look beautiful, and most importantly they're amazing gameplay-wise. Super Mario 3D World, Legend of Zelda Wind Waker HD(Which IS 1080p btw), Pikmin 3 ect ect. Not interested in the PS4 and XBOX one, there aren't any games that catch my eye outside of 'Evil within' which is technically a PS3 game which i can get on my dust & cob web covered PS3. tongue.gif Heck, i'm not even blown away by what i've seen on those other consoles riddled with more of these chilidish bleak grey and brown bro shooters which are targeted for 14 years olds. SO much for variety. the visual leap isn't night and day either....and we're soon going to hit that mute point where visuals won't beable to get any better anyways. Ultimately it's all about 'art direction' and nintendo has always had that down in spades, they are the best video game developer there is, i'd say the same for capcom and konami but they have been sucking really hard for the past 4 years. I'm much more of a retro gamer anyways, 80% of my gaming is on a smaller 27" Sony CRT in terms of NES & SNES, and atari 2600(which i hope to get soon.)

Also, I'm baffled that 60fps, let a lone 1080p aren't 'standard' for the PS4 and One. One thing i love about nintendo is that they make sure ALL, as in 95% of their games run in 60fps, which is extremely important also if you're gaming on an HDTV. 30fps causes that nasty frame doubling effect and i find it really distracting.....LCD/LED's without the use of backlight scanning, hides this effect mode since the motion blur covers it all.lol

Now, if i had a 50", i wouldn't care for 1080p....at 10 feet eye distance wise one can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p at that size. however, bump it up to 60" and it's a whole new ball game.lol Ah well, at least the experience on my 60" at 11 feet will be more immersive, won't be 'quite' as crisp/sharp for 720p content as i'm a foot too close, but eh. what ya gonna do? tongue.gif
Edited by WaveBoy - 2/21/14 at 7:13pm
post #1215 of 2069
I need some good news regarding the M series...
post #1216 of 2069
I talked with another customer service person a little while ago, and they would not say anything about release dates for M or P series. So at this point i am going to take it that he did not know what he was talking about. I hope they do come sooner than May though, I really want the P series to come out and have a feeling they will be a few months after frown.gif.
post #1217 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post


You know the industry far better than me, Rogo, so if you say Gou is pretty credible, that is all I needed to hear.

He only gets paid if he builds TV.
Quote:
And do you make anything of Toshiba's claim to using 'Toshiba's own Superbright LEDs'?? Toshiba is manufacturing the LEDs being used on these panels but Foxconn can purchase for use on anyone's panel?

If a Toshiba division makes the LEDs, a Toshiba division makes the LEDs. It's neither here nor there.
Quote:
Who do you believe had primary responsibility for the design and specification of these panels, Vizio, Toshiba, or Foxconn (or a combination of the above)??

I have no idea.
Quote:
Interesting thought - the central 60" of a 120" panel is a full-blown 60" 1080p TV... But the WAF of such a large monstrosity would be very low, so forget about use in the living room - dedicated home theater only. I've only got the living room right now, so at least until I move to another house, I would pass on the 120" (even if I could afford it :-) in favor of the 65"...

I'm imagining a wall that holds the whole TV and hides 75% of it. I admit it has a low-ish WAF, but not as low as a "just a TV design".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I still contend that Vizio has made a major mistake by leaving such a huge size gap in their R series (assuming it ever sees the light of day) between the 120" and the next size down, 65". That's a hole you can drive a 747 through. Sony did the same thing with their FALD displays, leaving a gap between their 85" and next size down, 65". Not quite as bad, but still a gap.

The demand above that size in total is small. And most of it is for lower-priced sets. Total U.S. sales of 70+-inch TVs are -- spitballing it here -- about 1 million max. The 65-inch Reference is going to cost about what an entry 80-inch costs (or more!!) and far more than even the P-series 70" Vizio, never mind the cheaper ones. So an R series of 80, 85, or 90... would capture perhaps 2-5% of that market. Would this be worth it for Vizio to go after? Yes, for sure.

But there is (a) no commodity 4K panel >70 inches right now that isn't sold for a lot for just the panel and (b) no real logic in doing a low volume R series in 65 and 70. So Vizio didn't really have a choice here. The 80-inch R series literally cannot exist until Sharp enables it. The 84-inch R series would be ~$15,000 and would require the engineering of a custom BLU for a product with well under 10,000 volume.

A 70-inch might have been doable, but however this 65-inch got done with the high-zone BLU clearly involved cooperation of some kind with Toshiba and whatever panel... Maybe that cooperation wasn't going to exist on a 70-inch panel?!? One reason it will take time to get the P series out is getting the commodity panels.

... snip...
Quote:
IMO you need something more in the area of 80"+ to really keep the furniture where it is and appreciate the full (or near full) benefits of 4K. Sadly, even an 80" 4K display at about 10' is still not deriving all the 4K detail there is.

We get closer to the real deal with the 78" & 79" offerings from Sony & Samsung as opposed to the 70" Vizio. That's not a bad compromise in terms of size/viewing distance/price.

So that 79" Sony is interesting. Maybe Vizio could have gotten that panel or maybe Sony is the sole launch customer and bought exclusive rights to it. Whatever the case, I don't believe it would have been easy to get and whatever Samsung is doing is probably captive to Samsung. Vizio needs Sharp. Sharp is not ready.
Quote:
We'll have to wait and see how these edge lit designs turn out in terms of effectiveness. I know Samsung does a very nice job with some of their edge lit displays. Even though it's 'only' 70", it will be interesting to see how effective the Vizio P series turns out to be.

Confused by this. Vizio's P series is not edge lit.
post #1218 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistractedJohn View Post

I need some good news regarding the M series...

 

I'm in this boat too not a peep from Vizio when the new M series will be available. We are ready to buy now to redo our entertainment center/area of the living room. I dont want to wait for May/June and signing up for their newsletter hasn't given any other indication as to when it's being released. 

post #1219 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Carter View Post

I'm in this boat too not a peep from Vizio when the new M series will be available. We are ready to buy now to redo our entertainment center/area of the living room. I dont want to wait for May/June and signing up for their newsletter hasn't given any other indication as to when it's being released. 

Same here. I think I'm going to wait to see if we hear anything solid around the beginning of March. If not, I'll just be getting something else frown.gif
post #1220 of 2069
The truth is no one knows when the M or P series will be coming and as far as I can ascertain there are no credible sources as to when they might be released either. Then again my definition of credible sources may differ from others as someone posting they heard it from someone in the know does not qualify. That is unless this someone has a history of being correct in the past.

As for the M series the best guess for release is May but that's based on reasoning and not on any actual information. The reasoning being May will be a full product year for the current M series.

As for the P series the assumption is it'll be released after the M series since Vizio has historically released models in the order from low to high end models.
Edited by venus933 - 2/22/14 at 9:23am
post #1221 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The demand above that size in total is small. And most of it is for lower-priced sets....
True, but I think with 4K that could change significantly. Once people become attuned to the size requirements for full enjoyment of 4K, you might see an upward shift in size consumption. Would it be a very significant slice of the 4K pie? Probably not, but it might be sufficient to make it a worthwhile production choice.

I think an 75"-85" P series offering would be very interesting. However, as you say, if these panels are not commodity items at this point, then this all moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Confused by this. Vizio's P series is not edge lit.
No, I'm aware of that, my wording could have been better. My comparison was directed to how the limited number of zones in the P series might compare to a well-executed edge lit design by Samsung. One might dismiss, perhaps unwisely, an edge lit display in comparison to a "FA" panel with a limited number of zones. Some of Samsung's edge lit designs are really well-executed IMO. Some reviews have gone so far as to say they almost appear as good as some FALD panels. Obviously not quite as good, but quite nice and largely free of the artifacts we typically associate with edge lit designs. IMO Samsung has more of an issue with viewing angle than edge lit design effectiveness.
post #1222 of 2069
Interesting Chinese article on the Vizio RS120 (use Google to translate):

http://www.hd.club.tw/thread-175608-1-1.html
post #1223 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post

Interesting Chinese article on the Vizio RS120 (use Google to translate):

http://www.hd.club.tw/thread-175608-1-1.html
nice find! This looks like the price on the 120 inch is going to set a new low price standard.
post #1224 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post

Interesting Chinese article on the Vizio RS120 (use Google to translate):

http://www.hd.club.tw/thread-175608-1-1.html
nice find! This looks like the price on the 120 inch is going to set a new low price standard.

40,000 yuan is about $6600, so 4 times that price means about $27,000. He's appears to be saying that the price needs to be at least that much, but it certainly hints at a price below $30,000 for the 120" Reference Series (which would certainly be shocking!)

-fafrd

p.s. and if true, would probably mean that the 65" Reference Series is almost certain to be priced well below $6000...
Edited by fafrd - 2/22/14 at 4:19pm
post #1225 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

40,000 yuan is about $6600, so 4 times that price means about $27,000. He's appears to be saying that the price needs to be at least that much, but it certainly hints at a price below $30,000 for the 120" Reference Series (which would certainly be shocking!)

-fafrd

p.s. and if true, would probably mean that the 65" Reference Series is almost certain to be priced well below $6000...

I think it's going be higher. 60" Sharp Elite was $6000 when it first came out. Vizio's bigger and have better specs.
post #1226 of 2069
Current rebates on the 2013 M Series run through 3/31, so I wouldn't expect the new M Series models to start showing up yet. Previous guesses of May seem likely.
post #1227 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by tCruzin View Post


I hope it's sooner than May or I may just get a 2013 M-Series or Sony soon.


Im thinking the same thing. I would like to hold out alittle longer for a newer possibly better set at a cheaper price. But my house is getting close to being finished up and a new TV will be one of the first things hauled in..

post #1228 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

True, but I think with 4K that could change significantly. Once people become attuned to the size requirements for full enjoyment of 4K, you might see an upward shift in size consumption. Would it be a very significant slice of the 4K pie? Probably not, but it might be sufficient to make it a worthwhile production choice.

So, honestly, the idea that 4K is going to motivate people who weren't already going to buy giant TV to go buy giant TVs so they can maximally enjoy 4K strikes me as TV mfr. wishful thinking, not reality. It's possible that what you note will occur: Enough demand starts materializing to make more niche-y products viable. Right now, you can only justify a few niche products total because the total size of the niche is tiny. When the niche is 1 million units, you get more SKUs than when the niche is 350,000 units, for example.
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I think an 75"-85" P series offering would be very interesting. However, as you say, if these panels are not commodity items at this point, then this all moot.

Right, so someday. And perhaps that's not terribly far in the future.
Quote:
No, I'm aware of that, my wording could have been better. My comparison was directed to how the limited number of zones in the P series might compare to a well-executed edge lit design by Samsung. One might dismiss, perhaps unwisely, an edge lit display in comparison to a "FA" panel with a limited number of zones. Some of Samsung's edge lit designs are really well-executed IMO. Some reviews have gone so far as to say they almost appear as good as some FALD panels. Obviously not quite as good, but quite nice and largely free of the artifacts we typically associate with edge lit designs. IMO Samsung has more of an issue with viewing angle than edge lit design effectiveness.

I see. I find Samsung QC to be mostly dismal. I have a tough time recommending videophiles buy anything they might want to return. If that changes, people at the forum should let me know. Edge-lit is far more likely to have QC issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

I think it's going be higher. 60" Sharp Elite was $6000 when it first came out. Vizio's bigger and have better specs.

The Sharp sold basically zero units and was discontinued inside of one year. Why would Vizio repeat this error?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

40,000 yuan is about $6600, so 4 times that price means about $27,000. He's appears to be saying that the price needs to be at least that much, but it certainly hints at a price below $30,000 for the 120" Reference Series (which would certainly be shocking!)

So acknowledging the limits of Google Translate, I read this the same way. It seems to me the implications were that the retail price might be targeted at $29,999. Maybe that's wishful thinking?!? Maybe that's really what's supposed to happen. If the latter, well, that's just flat out fantastic.

I tested out my pricing thought experiment on some folks Friday. I now believe that the "anyone with room for one that actually wants one would buy one if.... " number for a 120-inch TV is around $8000. So I do think $15000 starts to get super interesting. At $30,000, most people -- even those that wanted one -- would say, "that's crazy money for a TV." But it seems to me that first year sales would be likely to be big because you basically cannot buy anything like that now. And $30K would not deter anyone who needs such a thing. And while "need" is an extreme word, there are a lot of commercial/semi-commercial applications for a panel like that.

Anyway, I find this potentially very, very exciting. Again, fundamentally, this product does cost only 4-5x what you pay for a 60-inch TV (it's closer to 5 given yields and logistics costs). But also remember, that means $5,000 is within reach someday! Vizio might get us there before the end of the decade.
Quote:
p.s. and if true, would probably mean that the 65" Reference Series is almost certain to be priced well below $6000...

We'll see!
post #1229 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


I see. I find Samsung QC to be mostly dismal. I have a tough time recommending videophiles buy anything they might want to return. If that changes, people at the forum should let me know. Edge-lit is far more likely to have QC issues.

So I'm here to inform you that, IMO, Samsung's QC has improved. smile.gif

Poll owners of Samsung's F8500, one of the highest regarded displays ever, and you'll find a very high level of satisfaction and QC issues that appear no higher than, say, Panasonic. The predominant issue would appear to be buzzing. However I attribute that less to QC and more to plasma's inherent issues with buzzing, coupled with the beefier power supply that helps mitigate ABL. Add to that the myriad of parameters that contribute to people either hearing or not hearing buzzing, and you really don't have a 'QC' issue IMO.

You're probably correct in pointing out the inherent QC issues in edge lit LED designs, but even there I'm not aware of any more QC issues over the past year with Samsung than, say, Sony.

I may be wrong, but I honestly feel Samsung has significantly stepped up their game.
post #1230 of 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The Sharp sold basically zero units and was discontinued inside of one year. Why would Vizio repeat this error?

Sony's selling their flagship 65" FALD for $8000. Why wouldn't Vizio do the same? They said that they make "the worlds best tv's"
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