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Panasonic Claims New LED-lit LCDs Match Plasma Quality at CES 2014 - Page 8

post #211 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

8" away from a 103" ? Good lord, I can't stand sitting closer than 11 from my 60"...Yup, 4k is absolutely useless for me, at least when it comes to movies. for certain videogame genres, it could prove to be pretty darn amazing. Mario Kart 9(in 5 years) locked in at 4k, and sitting even closer to the screen would be pretty damn immersive.

11 feet from a 60" will certainly see the benefits of 4k over 1080p unless your eye sight is rather bad which if it is i'm sorry to hear.
post #212 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmReverie View Post

11 feet from a 60" will certainly see the benefits of 4k over 1080p unless your eye sight is rather bad which if it is i'm sorry to hear.
I am not doubting you but what is this statement based on? What 60" 1080p and 4K TV did you have to test this out? What identical material did you have in 4K as well as in 1080p.

I just want to separate out those who actually can back their statement up with true testing vs. those who just make stuff up.
post #213 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmReverie View Post

11 feet from a 60" will certainly see the benefits of 4k over 1080p unless your eye sight is rather bad which if it is i'm sorry to hear.

My eye sight is great, but I heard that you have to be sitting closer than 8 feet on a 60" 1080p display in order to see 4k. 8 feet is the optimal distance on a 60" for 1080p content, where as 720p is about '12' feet away.
post #214 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Looks like Panasonic's new flagship 4k LED has outgunned(aside from Motion resolution and Viewing Angles.) the mighty ZT60....Check out the link below. wink.gif

http://www.trustedreviews.com/panasonic-studio-master-4k-lcd_TV_review



"The blacked out demo room for the new panel was laid out with the ZT60 on the left, the new panel in the center and one of last year’s WT600s over to the right. The screens were simultaneously fed a combination of Japanese anime and (in yet another example of extreme bravery on Panasonic’s part!) the remarkably dark sequence at the start of Chapter 12 of the Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2, where Voldemort surveys Hogwarts from a hill at night with his army behind him. And what we saw from the new LCD panel was actually pretty amazing.

Shock part one concerns black level response. The new panel really did seem to match the black level response of the ZT60/65 – a black level response which, let’s not forget, was the first we’d deemed good enough to finally oust Pioneer’s KURO plasmas from their black level throne. This is all the more hard to comprehend given that the new LCD panel uses an IPS panel design – a design that’s not generally been associated with spectacular contrast in the past. The WT600 by comparison looked very washed out and grey.Panasonic Studio Master LCD
The new panel also matched the ZT60 pixel for pixel when it came to shadow detail. This is if anything even more remarkable than the black level response achievement because it proves that the new panel isn’t just unsubtly and unintelligently taking out all light from dark areas of the picture to achieve its deep black levels. The WT600’s darkest areas, by comparison, look almost completely hollow.And then there’s the new panel’s color response. As promised colour tones really do retain their richness, balance and naturalism even during the darkest moments of the Harry Potter sequence. So much so that they actually look slightly more dynamic than those of the ZT60/65 – a comparison that holds good during bright footage, too.

It’s not just with colour saturations that Panasonic’s new LCD panel actually outguns the ZT60/65 either. It also delivers dark scenes less noisily, with none of the green speckling noise you can see on the ZT60/65 if you get up close. Talking of noise, the new LCD panel also runs essentially silently avoiding the fan noise output by the ZT60.Although we’re not sure what motion processing settings Panasonic was using for the TVs in its demo, from what we saw the new LCD panel reproduced motion – especially camera pans – with markedly less judder than the ZT60/65 did. On the flip side, the new panel lost a little resolution with fast moving objects while the ZT60/65 did not. The ZT60/65 also delivered a wider viewing angle without losing colour saturation or contrast than the new LCD panel, though the IPS panel in the new model provides a markedly wider effective viewing angle than the VA-type panel inside the WT600.

As we finally emerged blinking into the bright lights of the main Panasonic stand, our minds were reeling over what we’d just witnessed. Before entering the booth we’d thought maybe Panasonic might be able to match plasma in some areas with its new flagship LCD panel. But the fact that this panel had just seemingly not only matched but even outgunned the mighty ZT60/65 in most areas of picture performance was just not something we’d been prepared for. Obviously we must remember that what we were shown wasn’t a completely finished TV sample. But if anything you’d expect picture performance to improve rather than get worse in the coming months. In short, Panasonic appears to have given itself a fighting chance of genuinely delivering on its outlandish claims to have matched plasma quality with its latest flagship LCD TVs. In any case, if this is what Panasonic can do within just a year of focussing more of its R&D activities on LCD, hopes have suddenly become seriously high for what thrills the brand’s plasma-free future might hold."

When i first heard about this i wasnt skeptical but didnt think about it again....now im interested. Would love to see the scientific measurements of this display
post #215 of 368
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

My eye sight is great, but I heard that you have to be sitting closer than 8 feet on a 60" 1080p display in order to see 4k. 8 feet is the optimal distance on a 60" for 1080p content, where as 720p is about '12' feet away.

It really is eyesight-dependent. With 20/20 vision, the 8-foot rule stands, plus or minus a foot. If even one eye gets to 20/15, then that distance becomes 10-11 feet. If your best eye sees 20/30, then you'll probably never see much benefit of UHD resolutions at a normal viewing distance.
post #216 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

When i first heard about this i wasnt skeptical but didnt think about it again....now im interested. Would love to see the scientific measurements of this display

It's true local dimming, and we already that can get very dark. I'm more interested in subjective impressions of blooming and shadow detail. If they have figured out how to deliver consistently good PQ without annoying brightness fluctuations in dark areas, that will be really something.
post #217 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

There are 3 issues

1 and 2. Number of LED needs to be used for each TV (more than 1,500) which creates more weight. Hence the higher manufacturing and shipping cost
3. The TV can't be anywhere as thin as most people want them to be

The direct-LED designs cut the weight and cost... They do nothing about thinness (and actually make it worse), but appear to be bringing back local dimming.
post #218 of 368
So what do you all think the delay might be for lag input? I'm considering on getting a new TV this year for Gaming, movie, etc.
post #219 of 368
Sure are lots of 'happy' plasma owners posting in the LCD forums.
post #220 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by mule65 View Post

Sure are lots of 'happy' plasma owners posting in the LCD forums.
I'm pretty happy with my st60 from last summer, but for the future I'm looking forward to getting a UHD LED set in a year or two. I've turned the page.

Having read over most of this thread, I'm not expecting 4k resolution to make much improvement in my picture, if any at all, but I'm enthusiastic about two other features of UHD that I haven't seen much discussed here: "deep" color and HDR. I haven't seen any UHD, yet, but the extended color gamut and contrast would, I'd think, offer great possibilities, once processing algorithms are worked out for upconverting legacy HD programming (of the sort I expecting I'll be watching for some years).
Edited by GregLee - 1/23/14 at 9:57am
post #221 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by mule65 View Post

Sure are lots of 'happy' plasma owners posting in the LCD forums.

I'm a happy plasma owner, but the technology is dead as far as I'm concerned.

Why talk about something that has no further developments coming and is leaving the market?

LCD has exciting stuff going on. Doesn't make me any less happy with my Panasonic plasma....
post #222 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm a happy plasma owner, but the technology is dead as far as I'm concerned.

Why talk about something that has no further developments coming and is leaving the market?

LCD has exciting stuff going on. Doesn't make me any less happy with my Panasonic plasma....

Bingo, though I think I will wait for a nice OLED.
post #223 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmReverie View Post

Bingo, though I think I will wait for a nice OLED.

Hope you've got BIG lungs (or DEEP pockets biggrin.gif )!!!

-fafrd
post #224 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Hope you've got BIG lungs (or DEEP pockets biggrin.gif )!!!

-fafrd

I don't expect to upgrade for around five years. smile.gif I'm fairly certain my vt60 will last me that long.
post #225 of 368
My only concern is motion resolution....especially when somebody mentioned that Panasonic's 4k model had a slightly hard time keeping up with the ST60's motion.
Anyhoo, plasma may be dead but paansonic's plasma technology will still live on inside their 2014 4k LED's. tongue.gif
post #226 of 368
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

My only concern is motion resolution....especially when somebody mentioned that Panasonic's 4k model had a slightly hard time keeping up with the ST60's motion.
Anyhoo, plasma may be dead but paansonic's plasma technology will still live on inside their 2014 4k LED's. tongue.gif

Unfortunately, the LCD panel Panasonic showed was not a shipping product. Even if performance winds up being similar, the technology used to get there is going to be different.
post #227 of 368
Told my brother today that Panny was getting out of plasma. This was his reply: "da consumers gave up da plasmas, because da consumers are dumb dumbs who flock to the brightest screen in the store like so many brainless moths."

Lol! Well put bro. smile.gif
post #228 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Unfortunately, the LCD panel Panasonic showed was not a shipping product. Even if performance winds up being similar, the technology used to get there is going to be different.

And reporedly they felt it necessary to have bright lights on the screens for comparisons which does not bode well for it.
post #229 of 368
So for watching still pics off your iPhone in the "sweet spot" directly in front, it's a great TV.

We are truly in the dark ages of HDTV development. Tons of bells and whistles but no one is even close to putting a complete package together. Although who would of thought Visio of all manufactures are the only ones heading on the right path. Eliminating the hand gestures, voice commands and even 3d. Frankly would rather have a great picture that everyone in the room can view then watching Toy Story in 3D.
post #230 of 368
When a company sell TV with no frills but with amazing picture quality, hardly anybody buy them. Remember Pioneer Kuro? Sharp Elite? Everybody just want cheap cheap cheap.

Cheap and amazing quality can't go hand in hand.
post #231 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangjim1 View Post

We are truly in the dark ages of HDTV development.

It's proved very challenging to sustain any sort of high-end TV market. The unique/oddball characteristics of the TV business have made this so as has utterly dreadful marketing.

Let's hope Vizio's efforts go rewarded and that the next wave of high-end LCD gets joined by better marketed/crafted OLED (not this idiotic curved stuff) and creates the product videophiles are seeking.
post #232 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
 
... and that the next wave of high-end LCD gets joined by better marketed/crafted OLED (not this idiotic curved stuff) ...

 

Yes, it is idiotic to have a non-theater-sized screen that is curved.  It makes it so that anyone who is not directly in the center will have the side of the screen closer to them look worse than a flat screen would.  Plus it makes straight lines no longer straight, ruining the picture geometry.  Really, this has got to be one of the stupidest ideas that has made it into a production TV.

post #233 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

Yes, it is idiotic to have a non-theater-sized screen that is curved.  It makes it so that anyone who is not directly in the center will have the side of the screen closer to them look worse than a flat screen would.  Plus it makes straight lines no longer straight, ruining the picture geometry.  Really, this has got to be one of the stupidest ideas that has made it into a production TV.

I couldn't agree more. It will look like a Pringle hanging on the wall.
post #234 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

When a company sell TV with no frills but with amazing picture quality, hardly anybody buy them. Remember Pioneer Kuro? Sharp Elite? Everybody just want cheap cheap cheap.

Cheap and amazing quality can't go hand in hand.

I think the Kuros sold well. Especially among the TVs priced in their range, they were probably at the top. They folded through bad business decisions & management.
Sony, Samsung, LG etc.. have high end models, but have ultrra low end & everything in between.

There were other factors outside price as well, like size limitations (only two sizes), screen reflection & screen brightness that some people who could afford them choose to pass.
post #235 of 368
Pioneer never wanted the low-end consumers. They wanted high-end and higher-end customers. The same with their DJ equipment, BD player, receivers etc (of that era).

Screen glare was not much of an issue because for plasma, Pioneer have the least amount reflection, they also had the brightest plasma, the blackest black, and the best motion resolution.

Size also never been an issue, at that price level, people are only looking for 50" or 60" (which was the largest screen at the time, for a flat panel)

I used to work for Pioneer, and the price was always the issue. People don't buy them until they are being discounted and by that time, each TV being sold, Pioneer went deeper and deeper into the reds as they went with little profit (original price) down to severely losing money (end of year price).

Bottom line, people just don't buy quality, they buy gimmick and want them to be cheap.
post #236 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Pioneer never wanted the low-end consumers. They wanted high-end and higher-end customers. The same with their DJ equipment, BD player, receivers etc (of that era).

Screen glare was not much of an issue because for plasma, Pioneer have the least amount reflection, they also had the brightest plasma, the blackest black, and the best motion resolution.

Size also never been an issue, at that price level, people are only looking for 50" or 60" (which was the largest screen at the time, for a flat panel)

I used to work for Pioneer, and the price was always the issue. People don't buy them until they are being discounted and by that time, each TV being sold, Pioneer went deeper and deeper into the reds as they went with little profit (original price) down to severely losing money (end of year price). .

That was a bad business mode. The R&D that they must have invested into the Kuro should have been significantly been higher than with their other equipment.

Placing your bets that they would sell out all of their high end TV inventory to keep their TV business alive was pretty shortsighted.
post #237 of 368
So is it safe to say that all 2014 '1080p' LED's will have the same poor motion smearing as last years models without the need of some gimmicky PQ altering/dimming motion interpolation?
If this is the case, i so reason to upgrade.....Might as well just wait it out for OLED, or fork up the cash for a 4k set IF they have found a way to improve motion....There have already been claims that Panasonic's Flagship(or was it a prototype?) 4k LED was a bit behind Panasonics ZT60 in terms of motion....
post #238 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

So is it safe to say that all 2014 '1080p' LED's will have the same poor motion smearing as last years models without the need of some gimmicky PQ altering/dimming motion interpolation?
If this is the case, i so reason to upgrade.....Might as well just wait it out for OLED, or fork up the cash for a 4k set IF they have found a way to improve motion....There have already been claims that Panasonic's Flagship(or was it a prototype?) 4k LED was a bit behind Panasonics ZT60 in terms of motion....

Just think about it logically (or as a cynic). Why would they have had such average lcd's in the past if they had the tech to do better. LCD like every tech has its flaws. Those flaws are not simply going to vanish. In other words it is marketing hype and nothing more. If you have a panasonic plasma or similar there is no reason (outside maybe of size) to upgrade for several years.

Note I would be saying the same thing if someone was claiming IR was nown completely non existent in there new plasmas. It is an inherent flaw in the tech (or downside). One must pick there poison, one thing is certain though is whilst those flaws may be able to be minimized they rarely if ever vanish entirely.
post #239 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmReverie View Post

Just think about it logically (or as a cynic). Why would they have had such average lcd's in the past if they had the tech to do better. LCD like every tech has its flaws. Those flaws are not simply going to vanish. In other words it is marketing hype and nothing more. If you have a panasonic plasma or similar there is no reason (outside maybe of size) to upgrade for several years.

Note I would be saying the same thing if someone was claiming IR was nown completely non existent in there new plasmas. It is an inherent flaw in the tech (or downside). One must pick there poison, one thing is certain though is whilst those flaws may be able to be minimized they rarely if ever vanish entirely.

Exactly, Panasonic knows plasma is better than LCD in many aspects (and it always will be), but because their sales have plummeted thanks to LCD propaganda, they are now in a "sink or swim" position. In other words, if you can't fight them, join them. Id rather have them stay afloat and one day bring another fantastic product to the market than to go completely under.
post #240 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

Exactly, Panasonic knows plasma is better than LCD in many aspects (and it always will be), but because their sales have plummeted thanks to LCD propaganda, they are now in a "sink or swim" position. In other words, if you can't fight them, join them. Id rather have them stay afloat and one day bring another fantastic product to the market than to go completely under.

Plasma tech is only really superior to regular LCDs in dark room viewing & nothing else!
Literally, there is nothing inherent to Plasma tech that makes it possible to better a LCD, other than maybe inconstant build issues with LCDs like backlight clouding & banding.
With plasma tech having it's own crippling motion problems compared to LCD sample & hold smear.

With newer & better Full Array Loccal Dimming sets, Plasma won't even have the advantage in dark room setting anymore either.

Panasonic was smart to jump ship.
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