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Panasonic Claims New LED-lit LCDs Match Plasma Quality at CES 2014 - Page 3

post #61 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawk785 View Post

0 degree viewing I can see them making the claim--but move 10-20 degrees to either side, and suddenly it's nowhere near plasma performance.

 

Have you seen it?

post #62 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawk785 View Post

0 degree viewing I can see them making the claim--but move 10-20 degrees to either side, and suddenly it's nowhere near plasma performance.



Agreed side viewing on my ST60 is nearly as good as sitting in the sweet spot. I do see where Panny is as far as a business point, and after losing millions on plasma's they finally caved to the 90% that just want that bright picture with no worries (except quality)
I also have to think that they know many hold them to a higher standard and will do the best they can with LED/LCD. IMO OLED only has a small chance of making it and I'm sure Panny would love to get rid of the image retention and burn in phone calls, OLED can burn in too.
post #63 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Have you seen it?

no pure speculation, much like their claim --I don't know that anyone has seen them yet. But... I've yet to see an LCD/LED tv that has off-angle performance of a plasma--even the sharp elites (I owned a 70" for about a week).
post #64 of 368
Great, so I can get a 65" tv with image quality as good as the VT series in the low $2000's. This means they've figured out how to make LCDs have great viewing angles, incredible blacks, no spotlighting, low input lag, and and no motion blur. rolleyes.gif Goodbye Panasonic.
post #65 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawk785 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Have you seen it?

no pure speculation, much like their claim --I don't know that anyone has seen them yet. But... I've yet to see an LCD/LED tv that has off-angle performance of a plasma--even the sharp elites (I owned a 70" for about a week).

 

Many have.  Mark Henninger did; 18 hours ago.  Read his post back aways in this thread.  And it sounds damn impressive for an LCD.  He saw compromises at 85 degrees, no where near your 10-20.  Your statement sounded as if you'd seen it in person.

post #66 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Many have.  Mark Henninger did; 18 hours ago.  Read his post back aways in this thread.  And it sounds damn impressive for an LCD.  He saw compromises at 85 degrees, no where near your 10-20.  Your statement sounded as if you'd seen it in person.

Starting to get interesting.

When will these guys begin shipping?
post #67 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Starting to get interesting.

When will these guys begin shipping?

Any word on price? If they are much more expensive than the plasmas that they are tying to replace, and that are still available, then the whole thing is pointless for now.
post #68 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

Any word on price? If they are much more expensive than the plasmas that they are tying to replace, and that are still available, then the whole thing is pointless for now.

Probably, but the supply of plasmas will someday be gone.
post #69 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Probably, but the supply of plasmas will someday be gone.

Just because the supply will be gone doesn't mean we have to run out and buy the almost as good alternative for twice the price right now. Let sales lag until they can bring prices down to a reasonable level for technology that is almost as good as what we have today. Once 65"+ 4k LEDs that look like the Panasonic plasmas of today reach the low 2ks, wake me up.
post #70 of 368
any word on uniformity? I've never had a problem with motion on lcds, and don't watch off-axis, so those were never my deal breakers for lcd.

for me, it's all about clouding/flashlighting. I've yet to see an edge-lit LED that didn't completely fall apart when I turned off the lights(which is how I prefer to watch everything, not just movies).
post #71 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Many have.  Mark Henninger did; 18 hours ago.  Read his post back aways in this thread.  And it sounds damn impressive for an LCD.  He saw compromises at 85 degrees, no where near your 10-20.  Your statement sounded as if you'd seen it in person.

I think you read into what I was saying a bit, perhaps out of fear that I had seen it wink.gif. My meaning was, LCD/LED TV's all suffer from off-axis viewing--most see de-saturation at 10-20degrees off angle and gets progressively worse from there. To claim that the TV matches the Plasma's picture is marketing hype. There's going to be de-saturation with this technology with off-angle viewing, it's just a matter of where it starts to degrade and how bad it gets.

The post you reference, he said 'Extreme off-angle views were also compromised, but nobody watches TV from a 85-degree angle.' Clarification here would be nice, as a lot of the demo's they have for these TV's they won't let you view it from anywhere other than their predetermined seated areas. It also doesn't say how bad it was compromised at 85deg, it's not like it's going to suddenly get bad at 85, its going to get slightly worse from 0 to 10 to 20 to 30 etc.

For me, if I sit 10-20 deg off center with a Sharp Elite - the de-saturation is noticeable. Some of the UHD's look a little better when I've observed them in the stores, 30 degrees is noticeable but it's maintained a bit better.

I want to see this technology get better, I just have my doubts that it has reached "plasma" better.
post #72 of 368
if you are sitting square in front of it (or at least close enough) and the edges of the the screen seem saturated differently than the center, then that's the off axis viewing issue I'm talking about from my experience with LCD's - without even going into side seats.
post #73 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawk785 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Many have.  Mark Henninger did; 18 hours ago.  Read his post back aways in this thread.  And it sounds damn impressive for an LCD.  He saw compromises at 85 degrees, no where near your 10-20.  Your statement sounded as if you'd seen it in person.

I think you read into what I was saying a bit, perhaps out of fear that I had seen it wink.gif. My meaning was, LCD/LED TV's all suffer from off-axis viewing--most see de-saturation at 10-20degrees off angle and gets progressively worse from there.

 

It's pretty common to notice the barest minimum of adverse effects at roughly 20°.  I don't think I've ever seen an LCD so bad that 10° showed anything.  10° is standing 10 feet back and while staring at the same small section of the screen, moving laterally about 20 inches.  I don't doubt it, but that's pretty bad if that's what you've seen.
 

Quote:
The post you reference, he said 'Extreme off-angle views were also compromised, but nobody watches TV from a 85-degree angle.' Clarification here would be nice, as a lot of the demo's they have for these TV's they won't let you view it from anywhere other than their predetermined seated areas.

 

He actually states elsewhere that among the very few things you can ascertain is viewing angle for most of the TVs (I think he was talking about the Toshibas).  You can't get close to them on the floor, but walking side to side is possible.

 

I totally agree though: I'd really like to know 1. how compromised is "compromised", and 2. what the reviewers think of it when they actually get their mitts on them in person later in the year.

post #74 of 368
I thought he had sad that they 'demo'd' the panny --which in the pioneer/kuro days meant closed booth and set times. I always remember reading where they only let you look at them under certain conditions, but some of his other pictures do show the ability to walk around them. Given he didnt take any of the panny (unless i missed them) it made me think they were controlling the viewings.

But yes--hopefully they start trickling down to 3rd party's for review--I'd be absolutely thrilled if you had almost zero desaturation right up to 85deg off angle--but I'm going to guess it's not going from 0 to compromised between 80 and 85 degrees smile.gif
post #75 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawk785 View Post

I thought he had sad that they 'demo'd' the panny --which in the pioneer/kuro days meant closed booth and set times. I always remember reading where they only let you look at them under certain conditions, but some of his other pictures do show the ability to walk around them. Given he didnt take any of the panny (unless i missed them) it made me think they were controlling the viewings.

But yes--hopefully they start trickling down to 3rd party's for review--I'd be absolutely thrilled if you had almost zero desaturation right up to 85deg off angle--but I'm going to guess it's not going from 0 to compromised between 80 and 85 degrees smile.gif

 

I find that hard to believe as well, but my fingers are crossed.  I do think that it makes Panasonic seem a little funny though in that for years they've touted plasma as the be-all end-all of PQ (which it may be), but then all at once say "well we've tried really really hard now, and it no longer matters."

 

I will say though that among the very best viewing angles I've seen were the S-PVA panels from Sony a few years ago.  I don't know why, but I've noticed it a couple times already.  I SO had my hopes up with IPS only to be completely let down in the end.  For example, their 2012 ET5 was "supposed" to be fantastic in viewing angles, and just ........ wasn't.

post #76 of 368
I would love the claim to be true. Panasonic dominating LCD would really stick it to Samsung... I hate you Samsung. biggrin.gif Just Kidding. Although if they make enough money selling good LCD TVs maybe they can hit OLED hard and really be dominant in that market.
post #77 of 368
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawk785 View Post

I thought he had sad that they 'demo'd' the panny --which in the pioneer/kuro days meant closed booth and set times. I always remember reading where they only let you look at them under certain conditions, but some of his other pictures do show the ability to walk around them. Given he didnt take any of the panny (unless i missed them) it made me think they were controlling the viewings.

But yes--hopefully they start trickling down to 3rd party's for review--I'd be absolutely thrilled if you had almost zero desaturation right up to 85deg off angle--but I'm going to guess it's not going from 0 to compromised between 80 and 85 degrees smile.gif

The Panasonic comparison was in a totally dark room, there was no set appointment or restriction on movement. I did not take pictures because it really was too dark, and it would have been rude to ask them to turn the lights on.
post #78 of 368

Thanks Mark,

 

Sounds like this new LED lit LCD is about 91% to KURO/ZT IQ with another 5% of hair spiting trade off qualities. 

 

I see no need to get a spare ZT panel since in another couple years the quality should be there and the price should be lower.

 

I'm looking forward to any additional info.  I'll eagerly devour a shootout review done in a controlled environment  when it becomes available.

post #79 of 368

May 6 YO Kuro still looks great!

post #80 of 368
I will still be getting a VT60 to hold me over for a few more years, (hopefully for a Panasonic OLED) but this is great news for Panasonic.
post #81 of 368
Woa, wait, what? So it's possible that one of these high end Panasonic LED's will be able to match even the S60's black levels and motion handeling? Here's hoping.
.it would be absolutely amazing if there was a big gain in motion handleling without the need of using gimmicky motion/soap opera features.
post #82 of 368
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Woa, wait, what? So it's possible that one of these high end Panasonic LED's will be able to match even the S60's black levels and motion handeling? Here's hoping.
.it would be absolutely amazing if there was a big gain in motion handleling without the need of using gimmicky motion/soap opera features.

That seems to be a priority for most of the major players
post #83 of 368

Nice!

 

What about cartoon looking flesh tone.  How do flesh tones look, especially darker skin (seems harder for TVs and cameras and DITs/engineers to get right)?!

post #84 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That seems to be a priority for most of the major players

Well that's good to hear! Motion smearing(Main reason) and lack luster blacks have been the two reasons why i've passed on LCD/LED's for quite some time.
What good is HD or even SD when the screen smears beyond a snails pace? Sure the picture looks great when static, but when the camera moves you're left with DrunkOvision resolution that goes well beyond a VHS tape. it's just BS which equals an inconsistent picture that looks far worse than 240p.
But i absolutely LOVE how bright LCD & LED's can get and the pure whites they dish out. I'm crossing my fingers Panasonic has done wonders with these new LED's!

Still, even my S60's motion could be better, there's still blur. Mind you, it's nowhere near as bad as an LCD/LED but it's present. I've seen better motion being dished out on a plasma, like my previous LG which was pretty darn impressive and close to being CRT-quality
post #85 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris5028 View Post

I would love the claim to be true. Panasonic dominating LCD would really stick it to Samsung

If Panasonic is still selling TVs in the U.S. after 2016, I'll be very surprised.
post #86 of 368
So lets just say that these new 4k Panny LED's CAN in fact perform just as good or extremely close to last years Top tier Panasonic plasmas in terms of black levels AND motion.....Yet wouldn't 1080p material look worse or slightly blown up being upscaled to 4k? I honestly don't want 4k, i don't need it since i sit 11 feet from a 60" and you have to be sitting closer than 8 feet at that size to even notice 4k. I'm already 3 feet farther away than the optimal1080p distance on a 60".lol 8 feet as it is, is wayyy too close for my liking. PLUS there isn't much 4K content available.

At this point, it's useless to me....It will come in handy with the Next generation of consoles no doubt because certain videogame genre's would be far more immersive when sitting pretty close to the screen(Think first person 'whatevers') so the higher resolution will make a land slide of a diffference. but for now 1080p is all that i need. and i fear, once again that their 1080p models wont match the core Picture quality of their 4K LED's and i also fear that it's going to be the lower end sets that have the least amount of lag with the crappiest picture. Us gamers get screwed over every year which equals to slim a** pickings.lol My choice of HDTV from last year would of been the Samsung 8500 due to it's LED-like Brightness, but it's 53ms is way too much lag for me. The ST60 would of been my second choice, but it's 70+ms is absolutely ridiculous. Meanwhile the VT60 boasts 47ms but even that is a little too much. So i settled with the S60 mainly because it does 34ms.

Panasonic Should make sure that their sets have some sort of dedicated mode or work around the extra processing to give us 2 frames or less of lag and ADVERTIZE it as a gamers set! yeesh.
post #87 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

So lets just say that these new 4k Panny LED's CAN in fact perform just as good or extremely close to last years Top tier Panasonic plasmas in terms of black levels AND motion.....Yet wouldn't 1080p material look worse or slightly blown up being upscaled to 4k? I honestly don't want 4k, i don't need it since i sit 11 feet from a 60" and you have to be sitting closer than 8 feet at that size to even notice 4k. I'm already 3 feet farther away than the optimal1080p distance on a 60".lol 8 feet as it is, is wayyy too close for my liking. PLUS there isn't much 4K content available.

At this point, it's useless to me....It will come in handy with the Next generation of consoles no doubt because certain videogame genre's would be far more immersive when sitting pretty close to the screen(Think first person 'whatevers') so the higher resolution will make a land slide of a diffference. but for now 1080p is all that i need. and i fear, once again that their 1080p models wont match the core Picture quality of their 4K LED's and i also fear that it's going to be the lower end sets that have the least amount of lag with the crappiest picture. Us gamers get screwed over every year which equals to slim a** pickings.lol My choice of HDTV from last year would of been the Samsung 8500 due to it's LED-like Brightness, but it's 53ms is way too much lag for me. The ST60 would of been my second choice, but it's 70+ms is absolutely ridiculous. Meanwhile the VT60 boasts 47ms but even that is a little too much. So i settled with the S60 mainly because it does 34ms.

Panasonic Should make sure that their sets have some sort of dedicated mode or work around the extra processing to give us 2 frames or less of lag and ADVERTIZE it as a gamers set! yeesh.

That all presumes that you'd want the picture you'd have if the processing was shut off.

What if it looked like poo ? Would you still want it?
post #88 of 368
Hey guys don't you get it? They proudly make the claim because their new CEO cannot tell the picture quality difference between LCD and Plasma; and that's the reason he decided Plasma should go away! Ha Ha!
post #89 of 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

That all presumes that you'd want the picture you'd have if the processing was shut off.

What if it looked like poo ? Would you still want it?

wouldn't it be nice to at least have the choice? it's probably about 30cents worth of programming that would need to be added to defeat all the processing and reduce lag to the panels best value.

for most games, i'd probably use that option.
post #90 of 368
how do you know you aren't already disabling the processing in the custom advance mode menus to the best ability of the set and that the resulting lag is as good as it gets for that particular set? ie, maybe they let you tick everything off and the only thing they don't have is a general override switch that shuts it all off more conveniently.
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