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Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread - Page 10

post #271 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

I think you will be less likely to see them because in general they regard SLR type cameras as "real" cameras, and camcorders as "amateur".

Actually, the web chatter seems to be that people do not like the example GH4 4K videos. They, however, blame it on the videographers, Youtube etc!
post #272 of 1353
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Actually, the web chatter seems to be that people do not like the example GH4 4K videos. They, however, blame it on the videographers, Youtube etc!
I posted the 4K youtube video on DVinfo.net and they seem to like it.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/521533-press-release-panasonic-announces-4k-mirrorless-dmc-gh4.html
post #273 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post

I think you will be less likely to see them because in general they regard SLR type cameras as "real" cameras, and camcorders as "amateur".

You're probably right! Results don't seem to matter as much. I firmly believe you could have 2 cameras outputting the same overall quality and camera A will get knocked because of its 'perception' and camera B will be looked at as just fine. Somehow the GH4 pisses them off less even though the output from the AX100 may be equally great in the most important areas. Strange world we live in. biggrin.gif
post #274 of 1353
post #275 of 1353
Real good Ken. No artifacts of any kind on the 4K set.
Watching the 1080p version using my Apple thunderbolt display at 2560x1440, I did notice distortion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Thanks Bill. Did you notice the moire on the GH4 footage when viewed at 4K? I can't tell for sure if it's a byproduct of the downscaling to 1080p or if it's inherent in the footage.
post #276 of 1353
That's good news Bill, thanks. So this brings up the question of how the GH4 handles the 4K>2K conversion. I know Sony makes a big deal of how well their cameras do this, but I wonder how the Panasonic does in this area. That's pretty important given that I'm sure many like me will want to archive in 4K, yet watch now in 2K.

I guess we'll have to wait for that part of the puzzle to be answered when the camera comes out.
post #277 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

Real good Ken. No artifacts of any kind on the 4K set.
Watching the 1080p version using my Apple thunderbolt display at 2560x1440, I did notice distortion.

Bill, I know you're planning to get both the GH4 and AX100, but I don't know if you've thought about the issue of playback compatibility from 4K cameras. We know for sure the AX100 is compatible with your Sony 4K TV via the HDMI output of the AX100, but do we know for sure the same is true about the GH4?

This is a question that's bothered me for some time since I'm planning on getting a 4K UHD TV this summer. There seems to be little out there in terms of knowing, with any degree of certainty, if a given type of personal 4K material (e.g. 4K camcorder output) can be played on a particular 4K display. We know the AX100 would be fine with the Sony, but what about a 4K display like the Samsung? What about the GH4 compatibility with a Sony?

I'm leaning heavily toward the 2014 Sonys and part of that has to do with their compatibility, media server and color palette. It seems that Samsung and Sony have slightly different philosophies in their 4K displays. Samsung 4K displays seems to lean toward a higher apparent sharpness whereas Sony leans toward a broader color palette. I'd like to retain the beautiful colors of the AX100 in 4K and whatever other capture device I might get in the future. But there is a concern that one capture device may have no way to output in 4K to a given 4K display.

I don't think compatibility with HDMI 2.0 clearly addresses this issue. Do you have any additional insight into this?
post #278 of 1353
These are real 4K issues Ken.

My initial plan was to edit and drive the 4K footage with an Apple Mac Pro that can drive 4K displays with HDMI. Not HDMI 2.0 yet, I believe.
That plan is now in limbo as the Mac Pro continues to be back ordered.

Now with both GH4 and Blackmagic 4K production supposed to be available soon. One wonders which really will be in the stores first.
Still, all three sub $3,000 cameras have issues. None can do 60p in 4K, have HDMI 2.0 or some sort of 4K recorder accessory.

Currently, you cannot put 4K content on an USB stick or hard drive to plug onto the Sony XBR65X900A.
Only ways to play 4K on the Sony are through the Sony Media Player, Youtube 4K files via Youtube Sony app and Netflix using the Sony app on the set.
Another is with a computer that has 4K resolution graphic cards. Not many can do 2160p at more than 24p. Mac Pro can do 2160p up to 60p. That will cost over $7,000.

So, we wait.
I still have the Sony FDR-AX100 on order from Sony and placed my name on both the Blackmagic and GH4 waiting list.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Bill, I know you're planning to get both the GH4 and AX100, but I don't know if you've thought about the issue of playback compatibility from 4K cameras. We know for sure the AX100 is compatible with your Sony 4K TV via the HDMI output of the AX100, but do we know for sure the same is true about the GH4?

This is a question that's bothered me for some time since I'm planning on getting a 4K UHD TV this summer. There seems to be little out there in terms of knowing, with any degree of certainty, if a given type of personal 4K material (e.g. 4K camcorder output) can be played on a particular 4K display. We know the AX100 would be fine with the Sony, but what about a 4K display like the Samsung? What about the GH4 compatibility with a Sony?

I'm leaning heavily toward the 2014 Sonys and part of that has to do with their compatibility, media server and color palette. It seems that Samsung and Sony have slightly different philosophies in their 4K displays. Samsung 4K displays seems to lean toward a higher apparent sharpness whereas Sony leans toward a broader color palette. I'd like to retain the beautiful colors of the AX100 in 4K and whatever other capture device I might get in the future. But there is a concern that one capture device may have no way to output in 4K to a given 4K display.

I don't think compatibility with HDMI 2.0 clearly addresses this issue. Do you have any additional insight into this?
post #279 of 1353
Bill, I'm certain that with the AX100 you merely output the 4K video via the HDMI output of the AX100 directly to the HDMI input of the Sony 4K display. I don't believe there is any need for the media server as I think this is a simple direct HDMI connection to your display.

The question mark is with the AX100 4K output to any other manufacturer's displays. Likewise, the question remains how do you output the 4K of the GH4 to any display, the Sony included. So at least with the AX100 we're guaranteed 4K playback without a hitch on the Sony 4K displays, but any other mix of a different camcorder or an AX100 with a different display other than a Sony, and who knows?

As for edited 4K material? Good luck.

It's a scary 4K world. smile.gif
post #280 of 1353
Oh, there are no concerns there Ken. All 3 cams, you should be able to use the built in HDMI 1.4 outs to connect to any 4K TV with HDMI and play the recorded 4K content.
My concern is how to play the edited 4K content off Final Cut and Premier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Bill, I'm certain that with the AX100 you merely output the 4K video via the HDMI output of the AX100 directly to the HDMI input of the Sony 4K display. I don't believe there is any need for the media server as I think this is a simple direct HDMI connection to your display.

The question mark is with the AX100 4K output to any other manufacturer's displays. Likewise, the question remains how do you output the 4K of the GH4 to any display, the Sony included. So at least with the AX100 we're guaranteed 4K playback without a hitch on the Sony 4K displays, but any other mix of a different camcorder or an AX100 with a different display other than a Sony, and who knows?

As for edited 4K material? Good luck.

It's a scary 4K world. smile.gif
post #281 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

Oh, there are no concerns there Ken. All 3 cams, you should be able to use the built in HDMI 1.4 outs to connect to any 4K TV with HDMI and play the recorded 4K content.
My concern is how to play the edited 4K content off Final Cut and Premier.

Bill, I thought I've read about some questions as to how you get 4K personal content in to a display like the Samsung. They have an external connection box and I'm not sure if and how it will accept personal 4K content. Hopefully you're correct and this is not an issue.

As for edited projects, yeah, good luck there.
post #282 of 1353
I think the Sony FDR-AX100 output in XAVC-S 4K through the mini-HDMI to any HDMI inputs on current 4K monitors including those from Samsung (with the too-sharp and bright) videos. tongue.gif fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Bill, I thought I've read about some questions as to how you get 4K personal content in to a display like the Samsung. They have an external connection box and I'm not sure if and how it will accept personal 4K content. Hopefully you're correct and this is not an issue.

As for edited projects, yeah, good luck there.
post #283 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

Another is with a computer that has 4K resolution graphic cards. Not many can do 2160p at more than 24p. Mac Pro can do 2160p up to 60p. That will cost over $7,000.

You don't need to a Mac Pro to display 4k on a computer monitor! Most mid-range graphics cards with displayport can output 2160p30 or better. IIRC, you can also easily get to 2160p60 by bonding two displayport connections across one cable like on the Sharp 4k display.
post #284 of 1353
I have seen that Sharp display. It is not a pretty sight.
As for using mid-level computers to edit and playback 4k content.
Only if you have days and weeks to waste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

You don't need to a Mac Pro to display 4k on a computer monitor! Most mid-range graphics cards with displayport can output 2160p30 or better. IIRC, you can also easily get to 2160p60 by bonding two displayport connections across one cable like on the Sharp 4k display.
post #285 of 1353
I am sorry I do not understand how one can draw conclusions about how difficult or time-consuming editing 4K video is without reference to the codec used, and without having actually tried it.

In theory, XAVC-S or another variant of h264 is going to be difficult, because it uses very high compression. However, I have encoded 4K using XAVC-S and it was not a big deal on my high-speced gaming laptop. Playing 4K UHD XAVC-S was easy on my mid-level computers, including my new $279 Windows laptop with Intel processor.

High bitrate 4K Pro Res (BM 4K Production cam) or MXP (Sony Pro high bitrate) will be not a big burden to edit, because there is lighter compression (why there is a high bitrate).

As was said, most current graphics cards will output 4K UHD via HDMI or display port. And the new Dell 28" monitor is 4K UHD (at 30Hz only - same as the three to be available 4K cameras discussed) and is $699.

Working with and viewing 4K on computers does not seem to be a big problem, if you currently have no problem with 1080p AVCHD.
post #286 of 1353
I don't think that editing will be a problem if you have a decent computer.

If you are trying to do it on a laptop or some old system, then maybe.
post #287 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

Another is with a computer that has 4K resolution graphic cards. Not many can do 2160p at more than 24p. Mac Pro can do 2160p up to 60p. That will cost over $7,000.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

I have seen that Sharp display. It is not a pretty sight.
As for using mid-level computers to edit and playback 4k content.
Only if you have days and weeks to waste.

William, you said that you you need a $7k Mac Pro to drive a 4k display. That is simply not true. Many mid-range graphics cards with displayport can drive a 4k display at 60 fps.

If you want to render 4k content at a reasonable speed, you need a good parallel encoder and a decent multicore CPU. Or fast GPU and an encoder that uses the GPU. Either way, you still don't need a $7k Mac Pro to do it.

On an unrelated topic, I agree with you that the Sharp monitor is dreck.
post #288 of 1353
Just saw that the Samsung 4K UHD TVs have USB ports that are said to be '4K compatible'. Now does this mean you can put your edited 4K project on a drive and insert it in the USB port and play it in 4K? Who knows? I'm sure there will be dependency on codec compatibility.

However, once I get the AX100 I'll take both a short edited project as well as the 4K output direct from the camera, and try it on several 4K TVs at BB.
post #289 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post


On an unrelated topic, I agree with you that the Sharp monitor is dreck.

Hatch, I haven't seen this 'beauty'. What size is this loser?
post #290 of 1353
Let's share our workflow and machines once we have our 4K cameras.
The sony status message still has not changed today for me.
Blackmagic 4K not shipping.
GH4 have neither price or date,

Also, I still have not found any of those Sony F55 4K footage from the Sochi Olympics.
post #291 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

Let's share our workflow and machines once we have our 4K cameras.
The sony status message still has not changed today for me.
Blackmagic 4K not shipping.
GH4 have neither price or date,

Also, I still have not found any of those Sony F55 4K footage from the Sochi Olympics.

Sorry, The BM 4K camera is shipping. See the thread on it. Just because it is not yet available in NYC does not mean it is not shipping or for sale. There is a world out there. Definitely on sale in European countries (e.g. France, UK).

But I agree, this discussion will get a lot more informative once somebody gets an actual 4K camera. Which suggests that we should all tone down our definitive-sounding pronouncements on what will work and what will not.
post #292 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Hatch, I haven't seen this 'beauty'. What size is this loser?
It's the Sharp PN-K321 32" IGZO 4k monitor.

http://www.amazon.com/Sharp-PN-K321-Edge-LED-Monitor/dp/B00C49R198/

I believe the Asus PQ321Q and Dell UP3214Q use the same panel.
post #293 of 1353
I dont know why you guys are so scared with the 4K world. Its not a big deal.

I remember playing 4k videos on my old core 2 duo desktop with no problems. And I play with 4k, 5k, and 6k videos on my notebook all the time in Premiere Pro.

Dont be afraid to buy a 4K camera because of that. You dont need a high end hardware for that.
post #294 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Chiu View Post

Let's share our workflow and machines once we have our 4K cameras.
The sony status message still has not changed today for me.

Bill, we're still about 5 weeks out from the AX100 shipping date, so I don't expect the status to change any time soon.

I'll certainly let everyone know about any compatibility issues I find on the 4K TVs I'll be testing with the 100's direct playback output as well as issues with the edited project. I obviously think it will be more dicey with the edited project.

I can see the possibility of getting the project to play on the Samsung if the USB ports are indeed '4K compatible', but I'm not sure how you'd get it on the Sony.
Edited by Ken Ross - 2/12/14 at 6:31pm
post #295 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchback View Post

It's the Sharp PN-K321 32" IGZO 4k monitor.

http://www.amazon.com/Sharp-PN-K321-Edge-LED-Monitor/dp/B00C49R198/

I believe the Asus PQ321Q and Dell UP3214Q use the same panel.

That one review on Amazon was weird. The owner complained of burn-in, which is extremely rare on an LED/LCD. I wonder if he's really referring to image retention which is not permanent. Burn-in is permanent.
post #296 of 1353
post #297 of 1353
can someone who owns this camera put up some raw files from recordings? No not uploaded to youtube, actual raw files?
post #298 of 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xevious View Post

can someone who owns this camera put up some raw files from recordings? No not uploaded to youtube, actual raw files?

Nobody can do that as of yet since the camera won't be released until March 19th. I'll upload to Vimeo where you can download the native files.
post #299 of 1353
Sorry for the newb question but can we expect the same pic quality when recording in 1080/60? AX100 should be better than the 900 in 1080/60p, no?
post #300 of 1353
Andy, yes, its 1080p should be better. It's both down sampling to 1080p from a much higher resolution as well as providing a higher bitrate than AVCHD cameras had offered.
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