or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › HSU VTF-15H or SVS PB-2000
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

HSU VTF-15H or SVS PB-2000 - Page 2

post #31 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by BozoBass View Post

Where is this 3db cming from? From what I read the PB2000 has 30-40% more output over the NSD which translates to 2-2.5db tops.

That is just from the rumor mill. I don't know how it will perform, it would probably be smarter to wait for a review with thorough measurements... if that ever comes. It may not. There weren't any real measurements of the 1000s, why should there be of the 2000s? The lesson here is you don't need to rely on measurements to sell a sub, and you can even just make numbers up if you wanted (who am I thinking of here).

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #32 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The lesson here is you don't need to rely on measurements to sell a sub, and you can even just make numbers up if you wanted (who am I thinking of here).



LoL!!!!
post #33 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

That review is a joke.

To be honest, even as a fan of Hsu, I always thought that review was very good. Its a critical review of a solid subwoofer. All reviews should be critical, but most are buttery soft. The author pointed out that in order to achieve that price point, some compromises had to be made, and in general they were intelligent compromises. His data was chocked full of an engineering analysis of data. He also tested out Hsu's rebuttal against the initial review and measured them to be unfounded and called them out on it. You will never see that level of scrutiny against any subwoofer ever again, I promise you. And it might seem harsh, but, lets face it, the sub was being judged against a higher priced and higher performing class. In the VTF15h's favor, between Paul Apollonio's successive tests, Brent Butterworth's successive tests, and Josh Ricci's battery of measurements, no other subwoofer in the world has had such a publically thorough analysis. If you do your homework, with a VTF15h you know exactly what you are getting, moreso than any other sub out there.
post #34 of 74
Whoa who would've thunk that.... about you...ShadyJ...lol. But you're right...the 15H has been tried tested and true on so many levels. It would have been nice for Hsu to send Josh the 15H to be tested and not put the onus on people making donations to have it tested. Heck...even Sputter...IIRC...offered in doing just that...but it cost so much frigging money to ship a sub back and forth between the US & Can.smile.gif
Edited by Billy p - 1/8/14 at 10:38pm
post #35 of 74
The VTF15h has four different sets of CEA number available for yet, six if you count the two times Apollonio and Butterworth tested it separately. Is there any other sub out there with more than two different CEA sets for it? Yes it would have been nice for Hsu to send a VTF15h to Josh, but CEA tests had already been published for it a number of times by that point, so you can see why they wouldn't think it necessary. However, its performance in other respects should have compelled them to, as it was revealed to have outstanding group delay and decay measurements.
post #36 of 74
Were Hsu's initial measurements comparable to Ricci's? Have they changed?
post #37 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by BozoBass View Post


Buy the best sub you can afford...dont settle with less if you can afford or justify more. Imo get the VTF15.

I actually get what you are saying bass...I glossed over the justify portion of your post.  On another note....my PB2000 shipped yesterday and is scheduled to arrive today!  I will keep posted, as it looks like I may end up being one of the first to receive one of these.

post #38 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

To be honest, even as a fan of Hsu, I always thought that review was very good. Its a critical review of a solid subwoofer. All reviews should be critical, but most are buttery soft. The author pointed out that in order to achieve that price point, some compromises had to be made, and in general they were intelligent compromises. His data was chocked full of an engineering analysis of data. He also tested out Hsu's rebuttal against the initial review and measured them to be unfounded and called them out on it. You will never see that level of scrutiny against any subwoofer ever again, I promise you. And it might seem harsh, but, lets face it, the sub was being judged against a higher priced and higher performing class. In the VTF15h's favor, between Paul Apollonio's successive tests, Brent Butterworth's successive tests, and Josh Ricci's battery of measurements, no other subwoofer in the world has had such a publically thorough analysis. If you do your homework, with a VTF15h you know exactly what you are getting, moreso than any other sub out there.

Isn't the first sentence of the Audioholics review of the VTF-15H pretty damning? "What became clear during the second round of testing is that despite the modest amount of power available from the BASH amplifier, the HSU subwoofer is not up to the task of handling low frequencies below 20 Hz." At least based on Audioholics reviews, wouldn't one conclude that SVS was winning the longstanding battle between these two brands? I ask that as someone with a stake on neither side, though as a potential first-time customer of either one.
post #39 of 74
The
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

Isn't the first sentence of the Audioholics review of the VTF-15H pretty damning? "What became clear during the second round of testing is that despite the modest amount of power available from the BASH amplifier, the HSU subwoofer is not up to the task of handling low frequencies below 20 Hz." At least based on Audioholics reviews, wouldn't one conclude that SVS was winning the longstanding battle between these two brands? I ask that as someone with a stake on neither side, though as a potential first-time customer of either one.

The VTF-15H has gone through the most thorough testing of probably any other sub in recent memory. It has been an interesting vetting process that has evolved for years and has weathered many reviews and re-reviews. This sub resonates with a lot of people for different reasons and you will find true-believers and outlanders on both sides. I think that is a testament to its design. The most comprehensive and latest would be the one found on Data-Bass. After this review, I'm not sure how one could argue against its clever design and good engineering with a straight face. The numbers seem to back up that the VTF-15H will probably produce deep reference-level bass in a lot of applications at an attractive price.

It is probably not worthwhile or even beneficial to compare SVS to Hsu in such a broad manner. Both are fine companies that make good products and you should probably look at the subs that meet your criteria and then compare.
post #40 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

The
The VTF-15H has gone through the most thorough testing of probably any other sub in recent memory. It has been an interesting vetting process that has evolved for years and has weathered many reviews and re-reviews. This sub resonates with a lot of people for different reasons and you will find true-believers and outlanders on both sides. I think that is a testament to its design. The most comprehensive and latest would be the one found on Data-Bass. After this review, I'm not sure how one could argue against its clever design and good engineering with a straight face. The numbers seem to back up that the VTF-15H will probably produce deep reference-level bass in a lot of applications at an attractive price.

It is probably not worthwhile or even beneficial to compare SVS to Hsu in such a broad manner. Both are fine companies that make good products and you should probably look at the subs that meet your criteria and then compare.

Makes sense, I suppose it's kind of like asking whether Honda or Toyota make better cars. I'm a newbie to the sub world, looking to invest in a decent sub for a pretty big room and for both music and movies, and at a loss between seemingly good and similarly priced options like the SVS PB-2000, Hsu VTF-3 MK4, and PSA XV15. There are lots of reviews out there, but relatively few seem to be comparative.
post #41 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

Isn't the first sentence of the Audioholics review of the VTF-15H pretty damning? "What became clear during the second round of testing is that despite the modest amount of power available from the BASH amplifier, the HSU subwoofer is not up to the task of handling low frequencies below 20 Hz." At least based on Audioholics reviews, wouldn't one conclude that SVS was winning the longstanding battle between these two brands? I ask that as someone with a stake on neither side, though as a potential first-time customer of either one.

Remember that the VTF15h was being directly set against the PB12 Plus in that round of tests. The Plus costs almost $400 more than the VTF15h. The VTF15h matches its performance from 25 hz on up, but it was beaten from the upper teens to the mid 20s by the Plus. With the PB2000, it is no contest, the VTF15h is going to outperform it pretty easily, although, again, not so much from the upper teens to the low 20s as the VTF15h is tuned a bit higher. In other words the VTF15h is a pretty competitive sub. I would say its advantages against the PB2000/NSD are greater than its disadvantages against the Plus, so I think it is positioned pretty nicely as far as price/performance against SVS's lines. However, depending on the headroom gains made by the PB2000, it does become harder to recommend the VTF3 over it as the VTF3's chief advantage over the NSD was a pretty significant output difference. If SVS has closed that gap as much as is rumored, the VTF3 would only seem to be competitive above its port contribution, so from 40 hz on up.
post #42 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Remember that the VTF15h was being directly set against the PB12 Plus in that round of tests. The Plus costs almost $400 more than the VTF15h. The VTF15h matches its performance from 25 hz on up, but it was beaten from the upper teens to the mid 20s by the Plus. With the PB2000, it is no contest, the VTF15h is going to outperform it pretty easily, although, again, not so much from the upper teens to the low 20s as the VTF15h is tuned a bit higher. In other words the VTF15h is a pretty competitive sub. I would say its advantages against the PB2000/NSD are greater than its disadvantages against the Plus, so I think it is positioned pretty nicely as far as price/performance against SVS's lines. However, depending on the headroom gains made by the PB2000, it does become harder to recommend the VTF3 over it as the VTF3's chief advantage over the NSD was a pretty significant output difference. If SVS has closed that gap as much as is rumored, the VTF3 would only seem to be competitive above its port contribution, so from 40 hz on up.

That's really helpful. But it still leaves me at a total loss about choosing between options like the SVS PB-2000, Hsu VTF-3 MK4, PSA XV15. I know one reasonable answer is they're all solid choices, but I still have to choose between them. Maybe the fact that in addition to movies I care about music (including classical, e.g. organ) helps eliminate what would otherwise be a solid home theater choice? Maybe the fact that I have a 2400 cubic foot room, but with a very large opening to another 2400 cubic foot room, helps eliminate an otherwise good choice? Budget is under $1K; I originally set it at $500 but am realizing for that large volume space I need to ratchet it up a bit.
post #43 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Nope.  If I want something badly enough, I purchase it if it is in my budget, then I want what I have.  I try not to always chase having what I want.  If I did that, I would be more like most Americans, financing two brand new cars, credit cards maxed out, living in more house than I could afford. working two jobs to make ends meet, broke and stressed out.  The PB12-NSD has plenty of output for me, only swapping for the PB2000 because $100 is negligible for a superior sub that i will have for many many years.

This, I can respect. I completely agree with you.
post #44 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

That's really helpful. But it still leaves me at a total loss about choosing between options like the SVS PB-2000, Hsu VTF-3 MK4, PSA XV15. I know one reasonable answer is they're all solid choices, but I still have to choose between them. Maybe the fact that in addition to movies I care about music (including classical, e.g. organ) helps eliminate what would otherwise be a solid home theater choice? Maybe the fact that I have a 2400 cubic foot room, but with a very large opening to another 2400 cubic foot room, helps eliminate an otherwise good choice? Budget is under $1K; I originally set it at $500 but am realizing for that large volume space I need to ratchet it up a bit.

If buying a single sub, buy the biggest/most powerful one you can afford. In this case the HSU-VTF-15 will have the most output in its all ports open mode above 25hz where most bass is. You're room(s) is/are too big to be able to "feel" sub 20hz output without a LOT of sub.

If you can up it another $300 eek.gif or so, you can get a Rythmik FV15HP. Keep listening to us on this forum and your budget will soon be >$3000 biggrin.gif
post #45 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

That's really helpful. But it still leaves me at a total loss about choosing between options like the SVS PB-2000, Hsu VTF-3 MK4, PSA XV15. I know one reasonable answer is they're all solid choices, but I still have to choose between them. Maybe the fact that in addition to movies I care about music (including classical, e.g. organ) helps eliminate what would otherwise be a solid home theater choice? Maybe the fact that I have a 2400 cubic foot room, but with a very large opening to another 2400 cubic foot room, helps eliminate an otherwise good choice? Budget is under $1K; I originally set it at $500 but am realizing for that large volume space I need to ratchet it up a bit.
If you can swing up to the VTF15h, that will be the best, but it is just a tad over $1k shipped. I would say if you want the best deep bass performance, go for the PB2000, if you want the best mid bass performance, go for the VTF3, if you want something that is just loud and digs deep go for the XV15, but take anything I say about Power Sound Audio with a grain of salt as I have a well-known dislike for them. The VTF3 can be switched to have comparable deep bass performance of the XV15 and PB2000 but at a cost of some output between 20 to 40 hz. To be honest, when its movie night and you have guests over and you want to crank the volume, they are probably hard to tell apart. You would probably have to be paying attention to tell them apart in music as well. Practically speaking, they all have a similar level of performance. What's nice about the XV15 and SVS sub is their longer warranty on the amps, you have to buy a matching extended warranty on the Hsu, although Hsu's subs are known to be pretty reliable. I like the VTF3 personally, I like to mess around with different settings and see how the sound changes, not something you can do with the other subs. Some people like that tweakability, others don't really care for that.
post #46 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

If you can up it another $300 eek.gif or so, you can get a Rythmik FV15HP.
They just hiked their prices up a bit, it would be closer to $400 more, however I think it is still a bargain at that price.
post #47 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you can swing up to the VTF15h, that will be the best, but it is just a tad over $1k shipped. I would say if you want the best deep bass performance, go for the PB2000, if you want the best mid bass performance, go for the VTF3, if you want something that is just loud and digs deep go for the XV15, but take anything I say about Power Sound Audio with a grain of salt as I have a well-known dislike for them. The VTF3 can be switched to have comparable deep bass performance of the XV15 and PB2000 but at a cost of some output between 20 to 40 hz. To be honest, when its movie night and you have guests over and you want to crank the volume, they are probably hard to tell apart. You would probably have to be paying attention to tell them apart in music as well. Practically speaking, they all have a similar level of performance. What's nice about the XV15 and SVS sub is their longer warranty on the amps, you have to buy a matching extended warranty on the Hsu, although Hsu's subs are known to be pretty reliable. I like the VTF3 personally, I like to mess around with different settings and see how the sound changes, not something you can do with the other subs. Some people like that tweakability, others don't really care for that.

Really appreciate the fantastic feedback! The tweakability of the VTF-3 is appealing, especially since I have a funky room so it's hard to know in advance what will work well, plus I'm a sub newbie, too. And I care a bit more about mid-bass performance than I do about ultra-low performance (though obviously in a perfect world both are nice). Further, I'm not planning on super-high SPLs, just moderately loud movies and music.

In theory the budget could be ramped up for the VTF-15H, but it's unclear to me how much of an improvement over the VTF-3 it would represent, and the triangular ports seem odd to me, though admittedly not on the basis of any particular audio-engineering background.
post #48 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

Really appreciate the fantastic feedback! The tweakability of the VTF-3 is appealing, especially since I have a funky room so it's hard to know in advance what will work well, plus I'm a sub newbie, too. And I care a bit more about mid-bass performance than I do about ultra-low performance (though obviously in a perfect world both are nice). Further, I'm not planning on super-high SPLs, just moderately loud movies and music.

In theory the budget could be ramped up for the VTF-15H, but it's unclear to me how much of an improvement over the VTF-3 it would represent, and the triangular ports seem odd to me, though admittedly not on the basis of any particular audio-engineering background.

The triangular ports should work fine. Hsu has been doing clever and creative things with ports for a long time, if anyone can pull that off, they can. In the VTF3 the ports are actually huge, and they are bent at a 90 degree angle within the sub itself. The only other sub that I know of which does this is the SVS PB13 Ultra.

As for an improvement, the VTF15h has about an average 3 dB more headroom than the VTF3. That is a healthy amount of headroom, but not huge. The VTF15h measures very well in other respects like group delay and decay times, you can see that and compare it to other subs here, I don't know how the VTF3 fares against it in these respects, probably not quite as good but I wouldn't think it is bad at all.
post #49 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

 I have a 2400 cubic foot room, but with a very large opening to another 2400 cubic foot room Budget is under $1K

I am usually the last person to push you towards busting your budget.  However.....all the subs you are contemplating....the PB2000, the XV15, the VTF3, even the VTF15, I don't think you are going to see HUGE differences in output with regards to filling up your 4800 cubic feet.  Yes, there may be 3dB or so difference between some.  I think it might be worth your while to go to data-bass.com,  pull up Rythmik's FV15HP, 2 port mode, and use the graphs to compare it with these subs.  You can use the Outlaw LFM1-EX for a very similar comparison to the VTF3.  I think you will be shocked at the output difference.  There are relatively minor to moderate output differences between the $800-$1k subs.....the jump to the Rythmik is huge.

post #50 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

I am usually the last person to push you towards busting your budget.  However.....all the subs you are contemplating....the PB2000, the XV15, the VTF3, even the VTF15, I don't think you are going to see HUGE differences in output with regards to filling up your 4800 cubic feet.  Yes, there may be 3dB or so difference between some.  I think it might be worth your while to go to data-bass.com,  pull up Rythmik's FV15HP, 2 port mode, and use the graphs to compare it with these subs.  You can use the Outlaw LFM1-EX for a very similar comparison to the VTF3.  I think you will be shocked at the output difference.  There are relatively minor to moderate output differences between the $800-$1k subs.....the jump to the Rythmik is huge.

Feedback appreciated, even budget-busting feedback! But I should clarify my space. I have 8' ceilings, my viewing area is 15' deep, 10' wide (that's 1200 cubic ft). But one side of that is a bar/half-wall that separates the viewing area from an open space of the same size (now we're up to 2400 cubic ft). And one side of that is a floor-to-ceiling wall that extends 2/3 of the way, with the large opening to the side of where my couch is located, and on the other side of that opening is a large room that easily doubles the total volume of the space to say 5000 cubic ft. I have sheetrock walls and ceilings and wall-to-wall carpet on top of plywood floors. One possibility is placing a sub away from the opening, in such a way that I trap more bass in the room, but I recognize the opening will still factor in.

The Rythmik's FV15HP is definitely pushing the budget at $1339 + $45 (feet) + $138 shipping, plus it's back-ordered. I guess it's not out of the question, but we're talking a different ballpark (which presumably comes with a whole other set of potential competitors at that price point).

Th Outlaw LFM1-EX seems to be an older design (maybe tweaked over the years?), more reasonably priced at $649 + $90 shipping.
Edited by niccolo - 1/9/14 at 5:05pm
post #51 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

Feedback appreciated, even budget-busting feedback! But I should clarify my space. I have 8' ceilings, my viewing area is 15' deep, 10' wide (that's 1200 cubic ft). But one side of that is a bar/half-wall that separates the viewing area from an open space of the same size (now we're up to 2400 cubic ft). And one side of that is a floor-to-ceiling wall that extends 2/3 of the way, with the large opening to the side of where my couch is located, and on the other side of that opening is a large room that easily doubles the total volume of the space to say 5000 cubic ft. I have sheetrock walls and ceilings and wall-to-wall carpet on top of plywood floors. One possibility is placing a sub away from the opening, in such a way that I trap more bass in the room, but I recognize the opening will still factor in.

The Rythmik's FV15HP is definitely pushing the budget at $1339 + $45 (feet) + $138 shipping, plus it's back-ordered. I guess it's not out of the question, but we're talking a different ballpark (which presumably comes with a whole other set of potential competitors at that price point).

Th Outlaw LFM1-EX seems to be an older design (maybe tweaked over the years?), more reasonably priced at $649 + $90 shipping.

The sub "sees" the whole 5000 cubic feet. Placing it near field will certainly help with the tactile feel but you will still lose the ULFs to the room.

A pair of the outlaws would be nice. smile.gif
post #52 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

The sub "sees" the whole 5000 cubic feet. Placing it near field will certainly help with the tactile feel but you will still lose the ULFs to the room.

A pair of the outlaws would be nice. smile.gif

I can definitely place a sub near-field in end-table position next to the couch. Slightly more awkwardly, I could place it behind the couch, between the couch and wall, I believe that's Dr. Hsu's favored position, firing into the couch. Dual Outlaws are about the same price as one Rhythmik, so I suppose that comes into consideration if I'm stretching the budget that much.
post #53 of 74

Maybe you will get some room gain they way your space is split up, not sure.  Just figured based on your situation that this option(Rythmik) might be worth your consideration.  And then, yeah, at that price point it opens up the option of getting dual subs in the lower price range...decisions decisions.  Many of the ID companies offer a discount for dual subs.

post #54 of 74
At this point the PSA XV15 seems like an excellent within-budget choice (Shady, what are your substantive reservations?), the Rhythmik FV15HP the budget-blowing alternative (albeit out of stock), and if the budget gets stretched that much it accommodates dual PSAs, too.
post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

At this point the PSA XV15 seems like an excellent within-budget choice (Shady, what are your substantive reservations?).

My reservations are the XV15 uses a mediocre driver which is bandaged by digital signal processing, but that work around only works up to a point. At higher output levels the XV15 loses all semblance of linearity, yet it advertises itself over its competition on its ability to get louder. The truth is, at louder levels it performs worse, contrary to the manufacturers claims, and this is born out by third party measurements. However, as long as you keep it away from that last 6 dB, it might not be significantly worse than its competition. To be honest, there are worse choices out there, but what irritates me is Power Sound Audio's misleading promotion of its subs, so I started this thread about it. There are posts there which expose in greater detail the shortcomings of the Power X driver and XV15 design which I think are pretty substantial.
post #56 of 74
I hear you those PSA charts are embarrassing. I'm less convinced about the substantive critique of the product.
post #57 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

I hear you those PSA charts are embarrassing. I'm less convinced about the substantive critique of the product.

You don't think the critique is substantive or do you not believe that this critique would matter in your application?
post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

You don't think the critique is substantive or do you not believe that this critique would matter in your application?

All of the major brands seem to attract some criticism that some of their components are mediocre. I'm really not sure how to assess this. Is the assessment that PSA's drivers are supposedly mediocre widely shared?

At this point, the Rhythmik seems the most universally supported option but is really pushing the budget. PSA and Outlaw seem like contenders. So do SVS and Hsu, though each have their share of detractors. I don't feel well enough informed at this point to make a final choice, though I do recognize there are probably lots of good ones to be made.
post #59 of 74
I would go with the PSA XV-15 or XS-15. over the others mentioned. Also ignore any Shady J says.
post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

All of the major brands seem to attract some criticism that some of their components are mediocre. I'm really not sure how to assess this. Is the assessment that PSA's drivers are supposedly mediocre widely shared?

Many of the guys in the DIY forums would recognize the driver's weakness, but they tend to be a more technically savvy than the average person in the sub forum, although some of those guys frequent both forums. Lets put it this way, if you were going DIY, you could use the drivers from the Hsu, SVS, or Outlaw subs, but you would not want to use the Power X driver. That kind of driver would be great for a car SPL competition, not for hi fidelity. It has to go through some pretty heavy equalization just to be listenable at low levels.

Subs with some really good drivers are the SVS Plus and Ultra and Rythmik HP subs and the Hsu ULS-15. This isn't mentioning the high priced subs many of which use some amazing drivers
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › HSU VTF-15H or SVS PB-2000