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Vizio 120" Reference Series UHDTV at CES 2014 - Page 3

post #61 of 107
Ok, it was a 55" Toshiba Regza 670u, 2009.

Using the mouse to turn the zones off and on, it had 12 across, and 8 down. I think the LG 55LH90 has the same zone count, and that LG panel was also used in the Vizio 551 VXT(?). It's exciting with FALD coming back, going back and reading that thread I remember my excitement in 2009.
post #62 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I remember they werent releasing zone count, so I hooked a laptop up with a black wallpaper, and used the cursor to move across the screen and count them as they turned on and off. As nice as that set did, and knowing how the Elite did, thats what has me most excited about the 384 zones.

The P and M are in no way on my list after my experience with the Toshiba.

Im gonna go back and find my old post for my results.

Smart man - whenever these Sony and Toshiba FALD panels come out, you should share your counting techniques with the first owners so the mystery they are trying to create about the number of dimming zones they are using can be sidestepped.

I'm pretty much with you - only holding out optimism for the R Series to hopefully meet or exceed the performance of the Elite. But I'll be looking at the reviews of the P Series as well in case there is anything to this new 'light gradient' technique we are hearing about.

What mystifies me about all of this is that I believe it amounts to nothing more than pricing strategy as I suspect there is no manufacturing cost difference between these different Visio panels as far as the LEDs and the local dimming technology.

A 65" panel is going to need the same number of LEDs on the back panel to generate the backlight whether they are organized into 384, 64, 32, or 16 dimming zones. Managing more dimming zones probably requires more computational horsepower, but all of these Visio sets appear to have the same processor, so there is no difference in cost there. My guess is that the backplane of the 65" panel has 384 individual LEDs which can each be independently driven (probably organized on a 24 x 16 matrix), and the R Series controls each LED independently, while the P controls subblocks of 6 LEDs together (probably a subblock of 3x2 for an 8x8 matrix of 'dimming zones'), the M controls sublocks of 12 LEDs together (probably a sublock of 3x4 for an 8x4 matrix of 'dimming zones'), and the E controls sublocks of 24 LEDs together (probably a sublock of 6x4 for a 4x4 matrix of 'dimming zones).

-fafrd

p.s. the new Toshiba FALD panels look promising as well - hopefully they have learned from the error of their ways in the past and they are using an Elite-class number of dimming zones as well...
post #63 of 107
Yepp, I will be watching Toshiba and Vizio. I think the XBR950 is just more than I want to spend. Im a VT50 owner who is very happy and will keep it, but would love to get on 4K.
post #64 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Ok, it was a 55" Toshiba Regza 670u, 2009.

Using the mouse to turn the zones off and on, it had 12 across, and 8 down. I think the LG 55LH90 has the same zone count, and that LG panel was also used in the Vizio 551 VXT(?). It's exciting with FALD coming back, going back and reading that thread I remember my excitement in 2009.

I assume you have seen Toshiba's announcement of the new Radiance panels:

http://www.toshiba.com/us/press-release/100945

Let's just hope that Toshiba has learned something since 2009 and that 'Quantum Black™ Local Dimming' is able 'to deliver significantly... deeper images than ever possible before' because they have understood the importance of controlling each LED on the backplane as an independent dimming zone...

-fafrd
post #65 of 107
I had not until today, but they are now on my "watch list" along with the Vizio. The Regza I had was a very nice set, other than a poor CMS and and blooming.
post #66 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Yepp, I will be watching Toshiba and Vizio. I think the XBR950 is just more than I want to spend. Im a VT50 owner who is very happy and will keep it, but would love to get on 4K.

We seem to have a pretty similar focus. I really wanted an Elite when my DWIN projector broke down, but I couldn't justify the cost, figured the FALD panels would come down in cost (and correct defects like the Elite's color issue) and so I got an LG 5600 as a placeholder in 2011.

Then the whole market went 'thin' meaning edge-lit driven by Samsung (which I am only now coming to understand was probably driven by a FALD-related IP issue Samsung had with Sharp) followed by the distraction of 3D so FALD just looked like it had been abandoned.

I actually picked up a new 65" ZT65 two weeks ago figuring that may be my last chance to get plasma black. We loved the improved blacks and dark-level detail versus the 5600, but the whole family prefers the sharper image of LCD versus the softer image of Plasma, so between that and the announcements from Visio and Toshiba coming out of CES, the ZT65 went back to Best Buy yesterday.

Sony is likely to do a good job with the XBR65X900A, but the price is likely to be as nonsensical as the Elite was.

Visio is doing everything right to bring FALD to the masses, but they are the new kid on the block in terms of delivering leading-class PQ so we'll have to wait and see what they can deliver (as well as where they end up pricing the 65" R Series - I'm hoping for $2,999 :-).

Toshiba has always been a good technology company, so I would fully expect them to be able to deliver Elite-class FALD performance, but we'll have to wait to see the improvements these Radiance panels deliver over the older generation of FALD they promoted that was a disappointment (as well as where they price their sets).

The biggest disappointment for me out of this exciting return to FALD is that Sharp appears to be completely missing the boat. They are the one manufacturer we KNOW had the technology to deliver plasma-like blacks and contrast, they apparently have the strongest IP position in FALD technology, and yet they appear to have based their entire 2014 strategy on offering 1080p+/4K-, which is fine except for the fact that it is edge-lit. What a screw-up. If Sharp had introduced their 1080p, Q+, and 4K lineup with Elite-class FALD technology, they could have moved right back to the top of the pack this year - instead, they are probably going to end up being an interesting side show because they stuck with edge-lit...

I don't really care one way or the other whether I get into 4K with this next purchase or not, but I want to get a reasonably-priced 65" panel that delivers Elite-like performance (or very close to it). So at the moment, the sets I am focused on include:

65" Visio R Series (4K) - if this set delivers Elite-like performance at the $3000-3500 price I am expecting it will win my business.

65" Toshiba L9400U (4K) - hopefully an Elite-like number of zones, an Elite-like performance, and an acceptable price (currently my backup in case Visio fails to deliver or decides to price the R Series for show only)

And if the Visio R and the Toshiba are priced like the Sony XBR65X900A in the stratosphere, there are a couple backups I am considering as next-generation placeholders including:

65" Visio P Series (4K) - price is great but if the performance is anything like your 96-zone Toshiba I will pass

65" Visio M Series (1080p) - if the performance with 32 zones is about as good as with 64 zones, not sure 4K is worth $700 to me

55" Toshiba L7400U (1080p) - I'd be prepared to stick to 55" as my next-generation placeholder if this set delivers Elite-like performance and is reasonably priced (the backup to my backup :-)

In any case, looks like 2014 is going to be a very interesting year for TVs...

-fafrd
post #67 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I had not until today, but they are now on my "watch list" along with the Vizio. The Regza I had was a very nice set, other than a poor CMS and and blooming.

Here is another release on their 1080p lineup: http://www.toshiba.com/us/press-release/100943

A real pity the L7400U is only being offered in 55"...

-fafrd
post #68 of 107
Im with you. I skipped the Elite due to price, and will probably miss the 950 XBR. I tend to buy a new set every 2 years, so spending that much is just overboard, which is why ive stuck with plasma.

I almost wonder if overall the Toshiba won't be the better choice because of their quality, but we will have to wait and see. Ill for sure try and ask people to do the zone tests on the flagships. Im a little surprised at sharps decision, but Ive not been overly impressed with the 70 and 80 models Ive recently seen out and about. I think with this upgrade if I can get reliable black performance, even if not as good as the VT50, and get 4K and other things, itll be worth it.
post #69 of 107
I am on the show floor and can't find it. Vizio is not listed in the prospectus, and even the "Ask Me" people don't know what I am talking about. Does not show up on 'puter screens either.

Last day, so I don't have time to go thru the last few pages - was caught up as of last night - to see if it's been stated here, so if someone could text me I'd appreciate it.

Mr Bob
650-333-4808 cell

Thanks!

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 1/11/14 at 11:53am
post #70 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I am on the show floor and can't find it. Vizio is not listed in the prospectus, and even the "Ask Me" people don't know what I am talking about. Does not show up on putter screens either.

Last day, so I don't have time to go thru the last few pages - was caught up as of last night - to see if it's been stated here, so if someone could text me I'd appreciate it.

Mr Bob
650-333-4808 cell

Thanks!

b

Vizio has always saved money at CES buy not registering as an official exhibitor and buying a booth. Instead they rent space at one of the other hotels and setup an private, by invitation only showroom away from the main convention. I heard it was at the Wynn this year.
post #71 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I almost wonder if overall the Toshiba won't be the better choice because of their quality, but we will have to wait and see.

Which is exactly why Visio's pricing decision on the 65" R Series is so critical.

I doubt Toshiba has reduced the number of dimming zones, so the Radiance should be at least 96 and hopefully closer to the Elite's 216.

Highly unlikely that the $2200 Visio 65" P Series is going to outperform the Toshiba 65" Radiance panel.

Also highly unlikely that the 65" Toshiba Flagship is going to have a reasonable price. Their current 65" Flagship, the 65L9300U, has an MSRP of $7000 and is currently on 'sale' for only $4000, so it is being priced in the same ballpark of the Sony and Samsung 65" flagships (and the Elite).

If the 65" Visio R is priced anywhere more than 50% of the MSRP of the Sony/Samsung/Toshiba 65" flagships, (or anywhere near 80% of the 'sale' price for these units) no one is going to want to take a chance on them and is going to stick with the proven brands at the high end.

If the 65" Visio R is priced in the low 3's, that's more likely going to be a risk worth taking to you and me and many of the high-end aficionados on this board.

Visio has done everything right this CES to grab everyone's attention and signal that they are ready to move up the ranks and seriously compete at the higher-end of the market - the pricing they offer on the 65" Reference line will signal how confident they are that they can actually deliver the performance and quality that a high end buyer has come to expect from the Sony's and Samsung's of the world...

The 120" R Series is just for bragging rights and it is very unlikely that they will sell any real volume of these super-huge TVs this year. The 65" R Series positions them to put as much pressure on the top-tier suppliers at the high end as they have successfully applied at the low end,.

We all have our doubts about Visio - I mean, come on, we're talking about Visio, for crying out loud! On the other hand, they have been steadily moving up the ranks over the past few years, have established themselves as the volume leader at the low end, and the Samsungs and LGs of the world have demonstrated a well-established path to becoming synonymous with quality and world-class products from those humble beginnings.

In my view, the Visio 2014 marketing strategy has been brilliant, the R&D and technology development they have executed over the past 12-18 months has also been exceptional (at least as far as the prototypes they successfully demonstrated this week), and so they have laid the table perfectly to move to the head of the pack. It all comes down now to how solid they are in terms of manufacturing operations, quality, and customer service, and the 65" R Series is the product to prove they are for real if they can deliver it in volume with the expected performance and quality of a class-leading product.

If they price the 65" R Series above $4K, it means this is a two step strategy and we will need to wait until 2015 to discover if Visio is ready to compete with the top-tier suppliers for the high end of the market.

I'm hoping the battle happens this year biggrin.gif

-fafrd
post #72 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post



And if the Visio R and the Toshiba are priced like the Sony XBR65X900A in the stratosphere, there are a couple backups I am considering as next-generation placeholders including:

65" Visio P Series (4K) - price is great but if the performance is anything like your 96-zone Toshiba I will pass

65" Visio M Series (1080p) - if the performance with 32 zones is about as good as with 64 zones, not sure 4K is worth $700 to me

55" Toshiba L7400U (1080p) - I'd be prepared to stick to 55" as my next-generation placeholder if this set delivers Elite-like performance and is reasonably priced (the backup to my backup :-)

In any case, looks like 2014 is going to be a very interesting year for TVs...

-fafrd


fafrd -

If your placeholder list is where your consideration ends up falling, you may want to swap out the 65 inch P-series for the 60 or 70 inch P-series as they are 3rd Gen panels versus 2nd Gen as denoted by the last number in the serials...

(P502ui-B1)
(P552ui-B2)
(P602ui-B3)
(P652ui-B2)
(P702ui-B3)


There's a nod to his referencing the use of mixed generation panels being used to comprise the UHD line at 38 seconds in to Vizio's CTO Matt McRae interview with The Verge
post #73 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post

fafrd -

If your placeholder list is where your consideration ends up falling, you may want to swap out the 65 inch P-series for the 60 or 70 inch P-series as they are 3rd Gen panels versus 2nd Gen as denoted by the last number in the serials...

(P502ui-B1)
(P552ui-B2)
(P602ui-B3)
(P652ui-B2)
(P702ui-B3)


There's a nod to his referencing the use of mixed generation panels being used to comprise the UHD line at 38 seconds in to Vizio's CTO Matt McRae interview with The Verge

Interesting heads-up, thanks Peter

Looks like my backup from Visio will need to be 60" or 70" - is there any indication of what technology improvements were made from panel generation to panel generation?

-fafrd
post #74 of 107
Quote:
If the 65" Visio R is priced anywhere more than 50% of the MSRP of the Sony/Samsung/Toshiba 65" flagships, (or anywhere near 80% of the 'sale' price for these units) no one is going to want to take a chance on them and is going to stick with the proven brands at the high end.

I dunno, I'd take a chance, buying from a reputable retailer with a solid return policy.
post #75 of 107
Yepp.
post #76 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I dunno, I'd take a chance, buying from a reputable retailer with a solid return policy.

Yeah, Best Buy or Amazon or Costco... Not clear what channels Vizio would use for the R Series, but presumable at least BB and Amazon should carry them...

-fafrd
post #77 of 107
What i would like to know is exactly what Vizio means by "64 dimming zones" or "384 dimming zones" : does it mean the total number of LEDs in the full array backpane (which doesn't even make sense considering how few LEDs that would imply) or as i imagine, the number of individually addressed "zones" of LEDs used in the array ? And if so, how many LEDs are used in each "zone" ?
The reason i am asking that is because there is a video of the new P-line from Vizio in which the company shows the innards of the 55" UHDTV and there is a picture showing literally hundreds of LEDs lined up behind the LCD glass panel; So either the company is severely exaggerating the number of LEDs employed in its FALD used in the P-line OR Vizio does indeed use hundreds of LEDs line up behind the glass and divides their direct addressability based on "zones" of LEDs, thus giving it the ability to offer less or more "zones" depending on different (more expensive) UHDTV lines ?
When you guys talk about Sharp Elite having 216 "zones", do you have any idea how may LEDs per "zone" does that imply ?
As for Vizio so far offering the Reference Series only in 65" and 120" sizes, like everyone else here wondering, the question is why ? Why not offer sizes in between : X-large LCD screens for home theater sized from 80" to 90" that would actually be affordable, easy to transport and able to fit through doorways and stairways ?
post #78 of 107
Look at the screen as blocks, numerous blocks. Those are zones. No idea on led per zone, but the more zones the smaller they are depending on the screen size. Smaller the zone, more fluid they would be turning on and off. It could be the p and r series have the same number of LEDs, but the r series is more advanced on how little and area it can control individually.

As stated above,my Toshiba ,55 inch was 8 zones by12 zones as tested by me, or 96 zones total. On a 55 inch screen these worked pretty well but you could see the squares turn off and on in the dark. 384 zones has the ability to be outstanding.
post #79 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

What i would like to know is exactly what Vizio means by "64 dimming zones" or "384 dimming zones" : does it mean the total number of LEDs in the full array backpane (which doesn't even make sense considering how few LEDs that would imply) or as i imagine, the number of individually addressed "zones" of LEDs used in the array ? And if so, how many LEDs are used in each "zone" ?
The reason i am asking that is because there is a video of the new P-line from Vizio in which the company shows the innards of the 55" UHDTV and there is a picture showing literally hundreds of LEDs lined up behind the LCD glass panel; So either the company is severely exaggerating the number of LEDs employed in its FALD used in the P-line OR Vizio does indeed use hundreds of LEDs line up behind the glass and divides their direct addressability based on "zones" of LEDs, thus giving it the ability to offer less or more "zones" depending on different (more expensive) UHDTV lines ?
When you guys talk about Sharp Elite having 216 "zones", do you have any idea how may LEDs per "zone" does that imply ?
As for Vizio so far offering the Reference Series only in 65" and 120" sizes, like everyone else here wondering, the question is why ? Why not offer sizes in between : X-large LCD screens for home theater sized from 80" to 90" that would actually be affordable, easy to transport and able to fit through doorways and stairways ?

My guess was that the 65" R Series had a total of 384 LEDs (probably organized as a 24 x 16 matrix) which could each be dimmed as an independent dimming zones.
And that the 65" P Series used subblocks of 3x2 LEDs to result in an 8x8 matrix of 64 3x2 dimming zones.
And that the 65" M Series uses subblocks of 3x4 LEDs to result in an 8x4 matrix of 32 3x4 dimming zones.
And that the 65" E Series uses subblocks of 6x4 LEDs to result in an 4x4 matrix of 16 6x4 dimming zones.

I've since read some things from the old 2010 FALD post that makes me think that 284 LEDs for a 65" panel may be off by a factor of 2 or even 3, but on the other hand LED lighting efficiency has improved over the past few years and in any case, I would be very surprised if the 65" panels are not all lit by an identical number of LEDs just organized into differing groups for control/dimming...

As for the sizes, this is their first year competing at this level, so they are going for bragging rights with the 120" and aiming right at the sweatspot of the market with the 65". I give Vizio credit for a brilliant marketing strategy, especially when you consider that they have revamped their ENTIRE 2014 lineup to be FALD. If Vizio is as successful in executing this market-disrupting strategy as I hope, you will see them fill in the R Series with other sizes in 2015...

-fafrd
post #80 of 107
I am sure that's on the way. Last year the biggest OLED was Sony's 56", and I don't know if it was even scheduled for production and was not simply a prototype. Later in the year I heard of a 50" OLED production model (from some brand I cannot presently remember) selling for $15K. I am sure Vizio wants to be sure to see if they can get their feet in the door before designing and committing resources to a bunch of sizes. Hence the very impressive 120", even if it is just for bragging rights.

The US is not the only one making good displays. I saw very good 4K displays at Polaroid and Changhong, and the Changhong one did glasses-free 3D noticeably better than Sharp's version. They actually played a video of James Cameron extolling its virtues. In 3D, with clips from Avatar. Very impressively I might add.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 1/17/14 at 11:00am
post #81 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

That's under bright lights though, isn't it? Lots of LEDs look good under bright lights.

the 120" was setup in a bright living room setting. The 65" reference was setup in a darkened room.

Just to be clear the 120" was a prototype. Although they'd love to make it, they don't know if they know or want to deal with the logistics of how they would even ship this to customers.

Remember the 103" panasonic plasma had to have a forklift deliver it, and your home must have a doorway to fit the forklift thru! This is 120" and also several hundred pounds.

I'm definitely convinced after seeing the samsung's, sanyo, sony, vizio that I'll be getting the 70" P series for my Den and 50" P series for my bedroom when they come out. At $2,600 and $999 it's a no brainer.

As for the reference series vs. top of the line samsung etc, I think it'll come in at half the price of the others, and at that price I also think they'll start swaying folks on this forum. The picture quality as I mentioned next to the 65" samsung that retails for $6K was much better. Grant it, they probably didn't perfectly calibrate the samsung, but during the demo they did the scene for oblivion where the robot droid comes in after Tom cruise at the house and is on fire. My pupils dialated it was so bright.

For what it's worth, at CES, the samsung curved 105" was one of my favorite tv's. I think though the Sony TV's had the best 4K pictures out there. Their blacks are now pretty amazing, the built in 2k-4K upconversion engine was great, and the colors on that vs anything else I saw just popped so much more.

After having just bought the Sony HW55 and not going 4K, I'm itching to upgrade when there's content, probably this time next year. 4K for me was like the time I saw 1080P for the first time at CES years ago. I got goosebumps..

The 8K demo at samsung looked like I was looking thru a window and I'd bet most people if setup to fool people, would totally be fooled it was a window it was that good..
post #82 of 107
So let's disabuse ourselves of the notion that there is anything resembling a $10,000 price for a 120-inch television coming. It's not even clear there's a 120-inch television coming....

Still, there's reason to be excited about what Vizio is doing all around.
post #83 of 107
'bout time... while I love my 55LHX with 240 dimming zones, 65-70" has always been a better size for the space and 384 zones sounds about right. Anyone that saw these at CES also seen a 55LHX for comparison? I'm assuming 5 yrs of tech evolution gives the reference vizios a leg up on the old LG (not just in the 4k department)? Likely found my next panel.
post #84 of 107
I'm actually hoping that Toshiba line is good and price right. 58-inches is honesty where I would like to be at.
post #85 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

'bout time... while I love my 55LHX with 240 dimming zones, 65-70" has always been a better size for the space and 384 zones sounds about right. Anyone that saw these at CES also seen a 55LHX for comparison? I'm assuming 5 yrs of tech evolution gives the reference vizios a leg up on the old LG (not just in the 4k department)? Likely found my next panel.


Is LG doing any full array this year, or is it just Vizio, Sony and Toshiba? I remember the LHX being well received.
post #86 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So let's disabuse ourselves of the notion that there is anything resembling a $10,000 price for a 120-inch television coming. It's not even clear there's a 120-inch television coming....

Still, there's reason to be excited about what Vizio is doing all around.

I agree. The 120-inch Vizio Reference will not be affordable. It will almost certainly cost something much closer to Samsung's 110-inch S9.

 

Seiki is selling an 85-inch UHD for $8000, Sony sells a similar TV for $25,000. Samsung's 85-inch offering costs $40,000. 120 inches of even—better image quality will not cost less than that. If it does it would be a miracle.

post #87 of 107
A buddy of mine, my partner in crime on these issues, bought the Seiki 50" 4K last year for a starting price of $1300 - by the time he was done he had arranged another reduction or 2 amazingly (he's gifted that way), getting it for a net of $1100 delivered - and I had a chance to calibrate it for him. It was quite an impressive picture, their upconversion engine was quite good. The grayscale was not too far off out of the box and was quite correctable, tho it only has the standard 2 light level zones vs. 10 zones and up for the more expensive brands, for the calibration of grayscale. The colors didn't pop like on other brands I saw at the show, but that might have been because we did not have native 4K content to play on it. Hard to tell without the proper materials for comparison.

As an entry level unit it seemed amazingly affordable for a 50" 4K, esp. when compared to other prices from other brands appearing here.

We only had 1080p to play with, and the difference between playing native 1080p on it vs. with their upconversion engine kicked in and at play was absolutely palpable. Esp. on the side edges of faces and other curved objects, where on pre-HD displays a certain level of Sharpness was needed to get it halfway decent, and even on HD we still need to do battle sometimes for achieving the crispness of excellent edges without having to employ too much or too little edge enhancement to get there. Crispness is a fine balance between too much and too little edge enhancement. NO edge enhancement is not always the best policy, it can make your picture look much too smooth at the edges, lowering your effective actual resolution and compromising your bandwidth. Achieving crispness - you notice I did not say achieving sharpness - is always a fine balance. Years ago Craig Rounds actually came up with an anti-ringing modification to the 9" gun 65" Mit HD CRT that allowed for fine tuning of the crispness on each gun on the WS-65813 and other brands that used that same IC on their CRT socket boards.

On the image structure side at least, 4K makes that all go away and edges have their proper depth natively, without having to worry about any kind of edge enhancements. Seemingly no matter what the brand. Seems to be a natural perk of the new genre.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 1/18/14 at 3:01pm
post #88 of 107
I doubt there is really a 120" reference series coming to market. If you look here: http://www.panelook.com/modelsearch.php?op=size there are currently no 120" panels in production.
post #89 of 107
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

I doubt there is really a 120" reference series coming to market. If you look here: http://www.panelook.com/modelsearch.php?op=size there are currently no 120" panels in production.

And yet Vizio built a TV with a panel that size and it did not look like some prototype. If you can build it once, you can build it again. I'm not sure the fact that website doesn't list a 120-inch panel is indicative of anything.

post #90 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

And yet Vizio built a TV with a panel that size and it did not look like some prototype. If you can build it once, you can build it again. I'm not sure the fact that website doesn't list a 120-inch panel is indicative of anything.

Plus I believe Vizio said that the Reference Series was using a 'custom LCD panel' that they specified, so it would not be available to other manufacturers and would probably not show up in any industry report...

-fafrd
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