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Vizio M Series HDTVs at CES 2014 - Page 3

post #61 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post


As I recall, the black levels were pretty similar, but the Reference had much better shadow detail. No blooming on either one, but there was a lot more detail in bright parts of the image on the Reference; on the Samsung, those areas were much more flat.

As for which LCD TVs I'm most excited about reviewing, I'm not all that interested in UHDTVs (except the Reference), and there weren't many HDTVs on display at all. So I guess I would say the Vizio Reference, M series, and maybe a Toshiba (which looked surprisingly good, at least on the show floor, and they were all flat) or Samsung 7150 (the company's highest-level flat HDTV). Maybe a Sharp Quattron+ (just to see how well that "plus" technology works).

But with desirable PQ attributes now starting to become available only on UHD displays how much longer can you not be interested? Two examples come to mind: 1) To get the hardware based dimming scheme of the F8000 you now have to buy one of Samsung's UHD televisions and 2) The Vizio "P" series will have twice the dimming zones, better motion as claimed by Vizio and more robust video processing than the "M" series.
post #62 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post


But with desirable PQ attributes now starting to become available only on UHD displays how much longer can you not be interested? Two examples come to mind: 1) To get the hardware based dimming scheme of the F8000 you now have to buy one of Samsung's UHD televisions and 2) The Vizio "P" series will have twice the dimming zones, better motion as claimed by Vizio and more robust video processing than the "M" series.


You make very good points; the better-performing TVs will be UHDTVs going forward. My biggest concern is the quality of the upscaling in these sets, since all 1080p will be upscaled to 2160p. Also, because there are, at present, no universally agreed upon and implemented standards for color gamut and dynamic range, most UHDTVs sold today will not correctly display what I hope is the UHD content of the future. Therefore, most UHDTVs bought today will be obsolete with respect to that content when it becomes available. But if you're mostly concerned with how a TV displays current HD content, then the better picture quality of many UHDTVs is an important consideration.

post #63 of 126
I hope this series will be native 120 hz...
post #64 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistractedJohn View Post

I hope this series will be native 120 hz...

According to this article on Wired: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/01/vizio-new-tvs-ces/

The M Series is a native 120Hz panel with a scanning backlight used to deliver an Effective Refresh Rate of 720Hz (x6)...

-fafrd
post #65 of 126
Thank you I appreciate that. I hope I can wait for it to finally be "unleashed" to the public lol...
post #66 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post


You make very good points; the better-performing TVs will be UHDTVs going forward. My biggest concern is the quality of the upscaling in these sets, since all 1080p will be upscaled to 2160p. Also, because there are, at present, no universally agreed upon and implemented standards for color gamut and dynamic range, most UHDTVs sold today will not correctly display what I hope is the UHD content of the future. Therefore, most UHDTVs bought today will be obsolete with respect to that content when it becomes available. But if you're mostly concerned with how a TV displays current HD content, then the better picture quality of many UHDTVs is an important consideration.

Scott -

That is precisely why my interest in the new Vizio lines this year start and end with the M-series! I will be buying a 70 inch M-series once available with the intent of retiring it to the bedroom once all the minutiae of 4K gets sorted out...and by then we will likely see the return of passive 3D to the 4K sets which is where that tech will really shine!
post #67 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post


Scott -

That is precisely why my interest in the new Vizio lines this year start and end with the M-series! I will be buying a 70 inch M-series once available with the intent of retiring it to the bedroom once all the minutiae of 4K gets sorted out...and by then we will likely see the return of passive 3D to the 4K sets which is where that tech will really shine!

 

I think you and I are on the same page.

post #68 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoPro700 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post

Scott -


That is precisely why my interest in the new Vizio lines this year start and end with the M-series! I will be buying a 70 inch M-series once available with the intent of retiring it to the bedroom once all the minutiae of 4K gets sorted out...and by then we will likely see the return of passive 3D to the 4K sets which is where that tech will really shine!

I think you and I are on the same page.

I'm on the same page as well, with one caveat: I want to see how the local dimming performance of the M-Series compares to the P Series and the R Series.

If Vizio (with Dolby's help :-) has some new black magic up their sleeves to deliver great black-level/shadow-detail/lack-of-halo-and-bloom with a 32-dimming-zone FALD panel, 1080p is all I need for now. But if the local dimming performance is noticeably worse than the P-Series with 64 zones, I might choose to spend another $300 (for the 65" panel) for that improvement alone (and the additional pixels come along for 'free' :-)

I don't see any reason that HD content should look worse on a 4K panel than it does on a 1080p panel, since in the worst-case, a 1080p image can be displayed through a 4K panel by expanding each individual 1080p pixel to a block of 2x2 4K pixels.

For me.it is all about improvements in contrast/black-level/shadow-detail and hopefully a return to the FALD standard set by the Sharp Elite. The Vizio Reference Series ought to be able to meet or exceed that standard, but until the new panels are out and the first reviews are in, it's hard to know what to expect from the M-Series (or the P-Series, for that matter)...

-fafrd
post #69 of 126
It's great that the new M series will seemingly provide a higer quality picture (Makes me wish I had not picked up my 65" M series a few weeks ago).

With that being said, it boggles my mind that as Vizio is working hard to put out better product, they can't also work on a faster more efficient way to get firmware updates out to current Vizio owners.
post #70 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr852 View Post

It's great that the new M series will seemingly provide a higer quality picture

The E-Series owners thread (here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1511254/official-2014-vizio-exxx-bx-series-owners-thread/390#post_24289374) has just posted some impressive pictures showing dark levels and shadow detail from the new 2014 E-Series panels that are worth having a look at and are hopefully good omens for the level of dark performance that will be offered by the 2014 Vizio M Series...

-fafrd
post #71 of 126
I don't really care that much about 4K but I certainly do care about twice the dimming zones and the other PQ enhancements. The extra cost (which isn't much) of the P series is well worth it in my book.
Edited by venus933 - 2/3/14 at 7:38pm
post #72 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

I don't really care that much about 4K but I certainly do care about twice the dimming zones and the other PQ enhancements. The extra cost (which isn't much) of the P series is well worth it in my book.

Well, it remains to be seen how much of an improvement the additional dimming zones deliver...

If 64 dimming zones n the P work well, then it's very possible that 32 zones on the M work nearly as well. And for the 65" panels, the difference in price is 'only' $700, but that is almost y a 50% premium versus the cost of the 65" M...

The only other PQ enhancement I could find on the P which was not on the M was the 24fps 'Cinema Mode' (and I would certainly not be prepared to pay $700 just for that, especially with a 120Hz panel, the M may also support a native 24fps Cinema Mode). The slightly higher 'True Action Rate of the P Series doesn't mean much and the High Velocity Mode of the P Seres is also not worth all that much to me (especially since the M Series may or may not support the same low latency for gaming...).

Now between the E and the M, that is another story - for only an additional $300 (for 65" panels), you go from a 60Hz native panel to 120Hz, you get a scanning backlight that operates almost twice as fast (so motion blur gets reduced by almost a factor of 4 versus the E), you get twice the dimming zones, and you get the Active Pixel Tuning (though that technology also might or might not be included in the E-Series). For $300 or 25%,that is my definition of a no-brainer...

-fafrd
post #73 of 126
"If 64 dimming zones in the P work well, then it's very possible that 32 zones on the M work nearly as well"

It's certainly possible but doubtful as it's a significant difference in the number of zones. Also, the robust processing of the P series should allow the local dimming software to operate more smoothly. My concern comes down to how it scales non UHD content. In any event we're both going to have to wait and see.

And don't forget the darker metallic trim of the P series is worth $500 alone. Or maybe not. tongue.gif
post #74 of 126
I would imagine 32 zones on a 42 inch is pretty good which is what I have my eyes on...
post #75 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

"If 64 dimming zones in the P work well, then it's very possible that 32 zones on the M work nearly as well"

It's certainly possible but doubtful as it's a significant difference in the number of zones. Also, the robust processing of the P series should allow the local dimming software to operate more smoothly. My concern comes down to how it scales non UHD content. In any event we're both going to have to wait and see.

And don't forget the darker metallic trim of the P series is worth $500 alone. Or maybe not. tongue.gif

Yeah, that's true - I'd forgotten about that darker metallic bezel... biggrin.gif

I am hoping that the reference to 'Active Pixel Tuning' (which is included in the M, the P and the R Series) is the critical technology for improved local dimming performance, but we'll just have to wait and see. Also, there is no reference to the processing power of the M Series, so it's possible that it has the same processor as the P Series (but unadvertised).

For me, the difference between 64 or 32 zones is minor compared to the difference between either of those numbers and 384 zones (or even 216 like the Sharp Elite).

In any event, absolutely agree with you - we're just going to have to wait and see...

-fafrd
post #76 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistractedJohn View Post

I would imagine 32 zones on a 42 inch is pretty good which is what I have my eyes on...

The actual spec says 'up to 32 Active LED Zones' so no guarantee that the 42 inch panel will have 32...

And based on the smaller E-Series panels having far fewer than the 'up to 16 Active LED Zones specified for the E, I would even say it is likely that the 42" M Series panel will have fewer than 32 dimming zones.

In fact, if you look here: http://www.amazon.com/VIZIO-E420i-B0-42-Inch-1080p-120Hz/dp/B00GWGZFOW/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1391492627&sr=8-4&keywords=vizio+42%22 you will see that the 42" 2014 Vizio E-Series actually has only 6 Local Dimming Zones ("•Active LED Zones x6 -Dynamically adjusts the LED backlight per zone creating deeper, pure black levels and higher contrast.") and so, based on my guess that the M Series panels will have double the number of dimming zones of the corresponding E Series panels, I predict that the 42" M Series panel will only have 12 local dimming zones...

Which may still be fantastic, but I am just pointing out that the actual number of dimming zones has been specified as a maximum until the specific specs for individual panel sizes has come out...

-fafrd
post #77 of 126
Good points there. So far I still feel good about it never the less lol...
post #78 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistractedJohn View Post

I would imagine 32 zones on a 42 inch is pretty good which is what I have my eyes on...

The 42 inch M-series will have 12 zones...

The 49 incher on up will have 32...
post #79 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistractedJohn View Post

Good points there. So far I still feel good about it never the less lol...

I hear ya. From my point of view, it seems like Vizio has brought some new technology to the FALD game in 2014 that may have fundamentally changed the equation of how many local dimming zones are needed to get good dynamic contrast improvements without suffering too badly from halo/blooming...

Maybe it's the Active Pixel Tuning and maybe it's something else (or a combination), but it's great to see a renewed focus on picture quality and improved black-level performance on LED/LCDs and I just hope the higher end Vizio panels continue to deliver increasing levels of incremental PQ improvement...

-fafrd
post #80 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DistractedJohn View Post

I would imagine 32 zones on a 42 inch is pretty good which is what I have my eyes on...

The 42 inch M-series will have 12 zones...

The 49 incher on up will have 32...

I guess at least as far as the 42 inch M Series goes, my prediction was pretty much spot-on, then biggrin.gif

From 49 and up, it sounds like all of the M Series panels will have the full 'maximum' of 32 dimming zones...

Where have you seen that additional information regarding the 2014 M Series panels, Peter? The only things I have been able to find on the M, P and R Series are the Vizio/CES website: http://ces.vizio.com/m-series.html#skip and the Wired article: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/01/vizio-new-tvs-ces/

-fafrd
post #81 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

I guess at least as far as the 42 inch M Series goes, my prediction was pretty much spot-on, then biggrin.gif

From 49 and up, it sounds like all of the M Series panels will have the full 'maximum' of 32 dimming zones...

Where have you seen that additional information regarding the 2014 M Series panels, Peter? The only things I have been able to find on the M, P and R Series are the Vizio/CES website: http://ces.vizio.com/m-series.html#skip and the Wired article: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/01/vizio-new-tvs-ces/

-fafrd

The first post in this thread by Scott Wilkinson...wink.gif
post #82 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
My concern comes down to how it scales non UHD content. In any event we're both going to have to wait and see.

 
That is my main concern, As I feel 4k content wont be wide spread for sometime. If it does upscale non UHD content just as good as the "top of the line" led/lcd sets I will probably be kicking myself if I do end up purchasing a new a NON UHD TV.
 
On some of the higher end '13 Sony and Samsung's the pricing is really starting to come down and they are looking better and better to me all the time as far as price goes.. The deals/TV's on the '13's  wont be around forever so im in a tight spot, If I should buy now or wait it out.
I have a gut feeling that my non UHD TV could be considered a dinosaur in only a couple of years..

Edited by SnoPro700 - 2/3/14 at 11:30pm
post #83 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoPro700 View Post

Quote:
That is my main concern, As I feel 4k content wont be wide spread for sometime. If it does upscale non UHD content just as good as the "top of the line" led/lcd sets I will probably be kicking myself if I do end up purchasing a new a NON UHD TV.
Quote:
 
Quote:
On some of the higher end '13 Sony and Samsung's the pricing is really starting to come down and they are looking better and better to me all the time as far as price goes.. The deals/TV's on the '13's  wont be around forever so im in a tight spot, If I should buy now or wait it out.
Quote:
I have a gut feeling that my non UHD TV could be considered a dinosaur in only a couple of years..

Look forward not back.
post #84 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

I guess at least as far as the 42 inch M Series goes, my prediction was pretty much spot-on, then biggrin.gif

From 49 and up, it sounds like all of the M Series panels will have the full 'maximum' of 32 dimming zones...

Where have you seen that additional information regarding the 2014 M Series panels, Peter? The only things I have been able to find on the M, P and R Series are the Vizio/CES website: http://ces.vizio.com/m-series.html#skip and the Wired article: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/01/vizio-new-tvs-ces/

-fafrd

The first post in this thread by Scott Wilkinson...wink.gif

Guess I'm showing my old age - had read that but forgot - thanks.

-fafrd
post #85 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

"If 64 dimming zones in the P work well, then it's very possible that 32 zones on the M work nearly as well"

It's certainly possible but doubtful as it's a significant difference in the number of zones. Also, the robust processing of the P series should allow the local dimming software to operate more smoothly. My concern comes down to how it scales non UHD content. In any event we're both going to have to wait and see.

And don't forget the darker metallic trim of the P series is worth $500 alone. Or maybe not. tongue.gif


That is the KEY with the "P" series- How well it up scales non UHD content. My hope is to get a 70" "P" if it can upscale Dish 1080i very well! The best current upscaler is the X-reality Pro in the Sony TVs as far as I know and have read..
Gerry
post #86 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

I'm on the same page as well, with one caveat: I want to see how the local dimming performance of the M-Series compares to the P Series and the R Series.

If Vizio (with Dolby's help :-) has some new black magic up their sleeves to deliver great black-level/shadow-detail/lack-of-halo-and-bloom with a 32-dimming-zone FALD panel, 1080p is all I need for now. But if the local dimming performance is noticeably worse than the P-Series with 64 zones, I might choose to spend another $300 (for the 65" panel) for that improvement alone (and the additional pixels come along for 'free' :-)

I don't see any reason that HD content should look worse on a 4K panel than it does on a 1080p panel, since in the worst-case, a 1080p image can be displayed through a 4K panel by expanding each individual 1080p pixel to a block of 2x2 4K pixels.

For me.it is all about improvements in contrast/black-level/shadow-detail and hopefully a return to the FALD standard set by the Sharp Elite. The Vizio Reference Series ought to be able to meet or exceed that standard, but until the new panels are out and the first reviews are in, it's hard to know what to expect from the M-Series (or the P-Series, for that matter)...

-fafrd

From my readings here, the Dolby High Dynamic Range is not even available on the P series, just the Reference, or are you referring to some other Dolby attribute?
post #87 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnan24 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

I'm on the same page as well, with one caveat: I want to see how the local dimming performance of the M-Series compares to the P Series and the R Series.

If Vizio (with Dolby's help :-) has some new black magic up their sleeves to deliver great black-level/shadow-detail/lack-of-halo-and-bloom with a 32-dimming-zone FALD panel, 1080p is all I need for now. But if the local dimming performance is noticeably worse than the P-Series with 64 zones, I might choose to spend another $300 (for the 65" panel) for that improvement alone (and the additional pixels come along for 'free' :-)

I don't see any reason that HD content should look worse on a 4K panel than it does on a 1080p panel, since in the worst-case, a 1080p image can be displayed through a 4K panel by expanding each individual 1080p pixel to a block of 2x2 4K pixels.

For me.it is all about improvements in contrast/black-level/shadow-detail and hopefully a return to the FALD standard set by the Sharp Elite. The Vizio Reference Series ought to be able to meet or exceed that standard, but until the new panels are out and the first reviews are in, it's hard to know what to expect from the M-Series (or the P-Series, for that matter)...

-fafrd

From my readings here, the Dolby High Dynamic Range is not even available on the P series, just the Reference, or are you referring to some other Dolby attribute?

Well, I suspect that Dolby also had something to do with the 'Active Pixel Tuning' technology, which I believe may be critical to the improved local dimming performance Vizio is delivering with fewer dimming zones. Pure speculation on my part, but the M Series and the P Series do have Active Pixel Tuning which is distinct from HDR and is probably at least a part of the 'black magic' contributing to the dimming performance.

-fafrd
post #88 of 126
Every day I'm searching the web for a release date for the 2014 M series lol...
post #89 of 126
Any predictions on its release date?
post #90 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by nameajh View Post

Any predictions on its release date?
Lots of predictions. Anywhere from March to September. No information.
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