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Vizio Reference Series UHDTVs at CES 2014 - Page 12

post #331 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

As for driving prices down, I wouldn't hold my breath for quality 80" 4K displays coming from China. Sure they can undercut the Japanese and Koreans on price, but I truly doubt they'll compete on the quality stage.

Not this year. Perhaps not next. But don't underestimate the idea that Chinese panels will catch/surpass other panels within a few years. Many of the best panels already come from Taiwan.
Quote:
Sure the Samsung and Sony 85" displays are expensive, but at least product exists. When you say there's 'nothing special' about the 84" panel, I'll disagree. It's 84". That makes it special. smile.gif

Not special technologically. Anyone could make it. Demand for the Sharp 80/Vizio 80/every 84 in the world is tiny... And the 80s are cheap... We have to remember our desire for these is not shared by enough people (at any price) to motivate much production yet. And that's a chicken/egg on more production yielding even lower prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vae Vanguard View Post

..."Vizio will start selling its 120-inch Reference TV in the fourth quarter of 2014"

Interesting...So according to that article, the 120" R will be available Q4 2014...which would mean the 65" as well, if not sooner.

I would ignore dates from a hype site like that on products that have not been officially announced as products by the manufacturer.
post #332 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnan24 View Post

Interesting. Living the last 4-5 years on the plasma forum and very little on the LCD forum it seemed that sharpness was almost a dirty word there. I had read that sharpness was possibly the most important aspect of a good photo. Maybe it is also for video as opposed to trying to get the picture as accurate as possible to the original source as I have heard over and over.

I'm sad to see Plasma go but I have to admit being excited to investigate LCD, especially these Vizio Reference TV's. Not sure I can utilize a 65" but if it is much better than the P I might have to make room. I would love to finally "Look through a Window" that I had read about years before HD came out and I have yet to experience more than a couple of minutes.

I could never appreciate HD movies of HD gaming or even 480p based titles on my previous LCD's when the screen wasn't static. When things moved beyond a snails pace the entire picture smeared to DrunkOvision resolution...It was a nightmare. Thank god for back light scanning. Otherwise, when the image was still, the picture looked razor ship/clear...video games especially.
post #333 of 396
Will DrunkOvision become a larger and larger segment of the market?
post #334 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Will DrunkOvision become a larger and larger segment of the market?

Only after 5 PM. biggrin.gif
post #335 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

rx74ray,

thanks for the description - you know what I am seeking biggrin.gif

Just to clarify one thing - your last sentence regarding de-judder engine and 'cleaning up panning scenes without introducing SOE' - do you mean eliminating 3:2 pulldown judder and if yes, wouldn't any TV with a 'true' 24fps/48fps Cinema Mode deliver that? I just want to assure that I understand what you mean on that last point.

-fafrd

no, I was simply stating that judder is present on camera panning on 24fps film content (most apparent on bigger screens). There is simply not enough frames to capture it. I usually engage a de-judder setting to help improve that. IMO it improves overall film viewing experience.
post #336 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Not this year. Perhaps not next. But don't underestimate the idea that Chinese panels will catch/surpass other panels within a few years. Many of the best panels already come from Taiwan.
We shall see, but at this point it's just conjecture. Of course a lot of junk still comes from China too. Price point is one thing, quality and price point is something else. In the area of telescope lenses & mirrors, the Chinese have done an amazing job in bringing their qualities levels up significantly in a relatively short period of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Not special technologically. Anyone could make it. Demand for the Sharp 80/Vizio 80/every 84 in the world is tiny... And the 80s are cheap... We have to remember our desire for these is not shared by enough people (at any price) to motivate much production yet. And that's a chicken/egg on more production yielding even lower prices.
Well again, it comes down to quality. Perhaps "anyone" can make an 84" UHD TV, but not everyone can make a quality 84" UHD TV like a Sony or a Samsung...at least not at this moment. wink.gif
post #337 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx74ray View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

rx74ray,

thanks for the description - you know what I am seeking biggrin.gif

Just to clarify one thing - your last sentence regarding de-judder engine and 'cleaning up panning scenes without introducing SOE' - do you mean eliminating 3:2 pulldown judder and if yes, wouldn't any TV with a 'true' 24fps/48fps Cinema Mode deliver that? I just want to assure that I understand what you mean on that last point.

-fafrd

no, I was simply stating that judder is present on camera panning on 24fps film content (most apparent on bigger screens). There is simply not enough frames to capture it. I usually engage a de-judder setting to help improve that. IMO it improves overall film viewing experience.

I thought that 'judder' was a term used for the non-uniform motion stepping when 24fps film source was displayed at 60fps using 3:2 pulldown. If the original 24fps film captured a camera pan of 1cm between each of the 24fps frames, 3:2 pulldown would show alternating frames jumping between 1.2cm of pan and 0.8cm of pan. The pan would appear jerky and jumpy in a way that is not constant.

With a 24fps Cinema mode using 5:5 pulldown, each of the 24fps frames of video would show 1.0 cm of pan and while there will still be a noticeable 'step' to a pan (if the pan is fast enough), that step will be even and not 'judder' between even and odd frames.

So if that is what you are calling 'judder', I think the only way to make that motion/panning 'jump' that is inherent in the 24fps film is to use frame interpolation to smooth the motion out (which means introducing the Soap Opera Effect, even if there are options to introduce more or less of it.

I'm curious to know what your de-judder setting does, and whether it is just a 5:5 pulldown 'film mode' or it is smoothing the motion through the use of frame interpolation...

-fafrd
post #338 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post


Well again, it comes down to quality. Perhaps "anyone" can make an 84" UHD TV, but not everyone can make a quality 84" UHD TV like a Sony or a Samsung...at least not at this moment. wink.gif

For $20,000, I can make a one-off quality 84-inch TV to be honest. Have they cut the prices down to something less insane?
post #339 of 396
I find it very difficult to believe that goldstar makes some of the best display panels. I have spoken with a number of sales people and talked with a number of customers and panel failure seems to be a issue not to mention power supplies dying. I have yet to see one single LG (Lucky Goldstar) display that remotely impressed me, every LG display I have seen looks bad and cheap. I for one will not purchase Goldstar or any brand that uses there display panels. I can not wait for all the new 4K models to arrive and see them side by side even though I have already purchased a 4K tv.
post #340 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

For $20,000, I can make a one-off quality 84-inch TV to be honest. Have they cut the prices down to something less insane?

I guess my point was nobody is making them other than Sony or Samsung and both of those are very high quality displays.

AFAIK, no price cuts. Frankly that surprises me given this is now gen 2 and you'd normally expect at least moderate price cuts.

That's part of the reason I'm frustrated that Vizio is not producing one in this size range. Of course I have no idea if the picture would wow me if they did, but at least it would be another choice and at a reasonable price point.
post #341 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I guess my point was nobody is making them other than Sony or Samsung and both of those are very high quality displays.

AFAIK, no price cuts. Frankly that surprises me given this is now gen 2 and you'd normally expect at least moderate price cuts.

That's part of the reason I'm frustrated that Vizio is not producing one in this size range. Of course I have no idea if the picture would wow me if they did, but at least it would be another choice and at a reasonable price point.

The FALD being released this year are being extremely selective on sizes. Very few in between in the smaller sizes or in the larger sizes.

Panasonic & Toshiba coming out with 58" & 65"?
Sony with a 65" & 85".
Samsung with a 85 & 110" ($40,000 for the 85").
Vizio with a 65" & 120".
post #342 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I guess my point was nobody is making them other than Sony or Samsung and both of those are very high quality displays.

AFAIK, no price cuts. Frankly that surprises me given this is now gen 2 and you'd normally expect at least moderate price cuts.

That's part of the reason I'm frustrated that Vizio is not producing one in this size range. Of course I have no idea if the picture would wow me if they did, but at least it would be another choice and at a reasonable price point.

The FALD being released this year are being extremely selective on sizes. Very few in between in the smaller sizes or in the larger sizes.

Panasonic & Toshiba coming out with 58" & 65"?
Sony with a 65" & 85".
Samsung with a 85 & 110" ($40,000 for the 85").
Vizio with a 65" & 120".

Had not realized that Panasonic was releasing two FALD TVs this year - do you have a link I could learn more about them?

thanks,

-fafrd
post #343 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I guess my point was nobody is making them other than Sony or Samsung and both of those are very high quality displays.

AFAIK, no price cuts. Frankly that surprises me given this is now gen 2 and you'd normally expect at least moderate price cuts.

That's part of the reason I'm frustrated that Vizio is not producing one in this size range. Of course I have no idea if the picture would wow me if they did, but at least it would be another choice and at a reasonable price point.

The FALD being released this year are being extremely selective on sizes. Very few in between in the smaller sizes or in the larger sizes.

Panasonic & Toshiba coming out with 58" & 65"?
Sony with a 65" & 85".
Samsung with a 85 & 110" ($40,000 for the 85").
Vizio with a 65" & 120".

Had not realized that Panasonic was releasing two FALD TVs this year - do you have a link I could learn more about them?

thanks,

-fafrd


Found this: http://hdguru.com/panasonics-2014-uhdtv-and-hdtv-prices-leaked/#more-13288

So I assume these are the Panasonic 58" and 65" Panels you were referring to, though the article states that: "Panasonic’s specs aren’t clear about whether the LED backlight is edge-lit or full-array." Do you have any source confirming that the Panasonic AX800 is full array?

Anyway, I agree it is very strange that both the Toshiba L9400U and the Panasonic AX800 are both available in 58" and 65" sizes, and suggest they are based on the same pane(s)l.

The price of the 58" Panasonic TC-58AX800U has been 'leaked' at $4499, so hopefully the 65" model will be no more than $1000 more (65VT60 was $700 more than 60VT60, though both 'only' 1080p :-)

If the 65" Panasonic TC-65AX800U is priced below $5500, I think the 65" Vizio Reference Series is going to need to be priced at least 25% lower to even get consideration, especially since Panasonic's reputation at the high-end of the market is so much better established that Vizio's (even if based primarily on their plasma TVs...).

-fafrd
post #344 of 396
http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-58AX800U

Features

•4K ULTRA HD
•my Home Screen
•my Stream
•Voice Assistant
•Dual Core Hexa Processing Engine
•DCI 98% Color
•THX 4K Certified
•2400 BLS (Back Light Scanning)
•Local Dimming
post #345 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwali View Post

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-58AX800U

Features

•4K ULTRA HD
•my Home Screen
•my Stream
•Voice Assistant
•Dual Core Hexa Processing Engine
•DCI 98% Color
•THX 4K Certified
•2400 BLS (Back Light Scanning)
•Local Dimming

2400 BLS can mean so many things, but it looks like they have found a way to one-up Vizio's 1800 Clear Action Rate...

My guess is it means a 120Hz native refresh panel with an 8-segment scanning backlight that can be strobed at up to 20 cycles per frame refresh (versus up to 15 cycles for the Vizio Reference Series)...

If the backlight f the Panasonic AX800U is 800 Nits like the Vizio, I believe it'll end up meaning an Effective Refresh Rate of 600Hz for dark room viewing or 360Hz for bright room viewing (both of which are pretty good)...

It's almost like Vizio, Toshiba, and Panasonic have only been authorized to promote different aspects/specifications of the technology (assuming all three based on the same panel).


-fafrd
post #346 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwali View Post

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-58AX800U

Features

•4K ULTRA HD
•my Home Screen
•my Stream
•Voice Assistant
•Dual Core Hexa Processing Engine
•DCI 98% Color
•THX 4K Certified
•2400 BLS (Back Light Scanning)
•Local Dimming

Looking over Pansonics product line & their new line up that are available for pre-order
http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/viera-televisions-led

The next closest high end model after the 58" AX800 ($4,499) are
the 65" WT600 ($4,499).
the 60" AS650 ($1,699).

The slightly large screen AS650 (NOT 4K) is priced 3 times lower.
The even larger sized WT600 (that is 4K) is priced exactly the same.

Neither of those two have the words local dimming next to them like the AX800, which would have to be the reason for the higher premium over the other sets.

This all falls into place. The 65" AX800 will be priced higher than $4,500, but less than Sony's outrageous $8,000+ asking price for their 65" FALD.
We can almost deduce Vizio's price for their 65" R series, if they really will price it the lowest out of the competing FALDs.
post #347 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

The FALD being released this year are being extremely selective on sizes. Very few in between in the smaller sizes or in the larger sizes.

Panasonic & Toshiba coming out with 58" & 65"?
Sony with a 65" & 85".
Samsung with a 85 & 110" ($40,000 for the 85").
Vizio with a 65" & 120".

It seems I have been incorrect.

Toshiba will also be releasing a 47" & 55" FALD in 1080p resolution as well.
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-35303_1-57616634/toshiba-ces-2014-tvs-full-array-local-dimming-4k-and-clouds/

Panasonic might also be releasing a AX900 series that could be different from there 58" & 65" AX800 line as well.

I of course forgot Vizios E, M & P series.


A whopping 9 different lines of full array sets! There will definitely be more options for FALD this year than ever before!
post #348 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer View Post

It seems I have been incorrect.

Toshiba will also be releasing a 47" & 55" FALD in 1080p resolution as well.
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-35303_1-57616634/toshiba-ces-2014-tvs-full-array-local-dimming-4k-and-clouds/

Panasonic might also be releasing a AX900 series that could be different from there 58" & 65" AX800 line as well.

I of course forgot Vizios E, M & P series.


A whopping 9 different lines of full array sets! There will definitely be more options for FALD this year than ever before!

The 1 million dollar question will be : Who will have the best picture quality among all them, excluding the ridiculously 85" and above.
post #349 of 396
^Value Electronics to the rescue?
post #350 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Value Electronics to the rescue?

Yeah if they can all make it out by the shoot out.
post #351 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Value Electronics to the rescue?

Yeah if they can all make it out by the shoot out.

Of the high-end FALD panels, it looks like the only one that has a chance to be released by this years VA shootout is the Panasonic 58AX800 (which makes a certain amount of sense since Panasonic has always had such a focus on the VA shootout to promote the quality of their Plasma panels).

For Vizio, maybe the M series makes it in (doubt they would even enter the E unless it was the only option available in time).

And for Toshiba, have not yet seen any word on timing - since they also have a 58" which is likely based on the same panel as the Panasonic 58AX800, that might have a chance but I don't believe Toshiba has ever made participation in the VA shootout a priority...

When does Value Electronics typically publish the preliminary list of participants?

-fafrd
post #352 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Value Electronics to the rescue?

Yeah if they can all make it out by the shoot out.

 

I can't take that shootout too seriously until they at least attempt to start covering up the bezels.

post #353 of 396
Does VE carry Vizio? I wouldn't expect them to use a TV at the shootout that they don't stock. The R is probably the only one they would be interested in and that definitely won't make it. And I don't think most consumers, outside of the small number that could afford an R, have ever heard of the VE shootout. I only know about it because I hang out here. Anyway, I just don't expect to see an E, M or P Vizio in the shootout because neither Vizio nor VE would have any interest in that.
post #354 of 396
I don't see the point of having a shootout until most of the new models are released. Otherwise, what's the point?

On topic - if I were a betting man, I would bet "R" series doesn't launch this year at all. Perhaps 2015, perhaps not. The CES demo gave them a huge boost in brand equity though.
post #355 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Is Alive View Post

The CES demo gave them a huge boost in brand equity though.

And that will be quite fleeting if they don't deliver product on the higher end.
post #356 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ball View Post

Does VE carry Vizio? I wouldn't expect them to use a TV at the shootout that they don't stock. The R is probably the only one they would be interested in and that definitely won't make it. And I don't think most consumers, outside of the small number that could afford an R, have ever heard of the VE shootout. I only know about it because I hang out here. Anyway, I just don't expect to see an E, M or P Vizio in the shootout because neither Vizio nor VE would have any interest in that.

 

Robert Zohn says he plans on having a Vizio P series participate in the shootout.

post #357 of 396
Oh well, R will have to wait (at least) another year then. Better than no Vizio at all!
post #358 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ball View Post

Does VE carry Vizio? I wouldn't expect them to use a TV at the shootout that they don't stock. The R is probably the only one they would be interested in and that definitely won't make it. And I don't think most consumers, outside of the small number that could afford an R, have ever heard of the VE shootout. I only know about it because I hang out here. Anyway, I just don't expect to see an E, M or P Vizio in the shootout because neither Vizio nor VE would have any interest in that.

Robert Zohn says he plans on having a Vizio P series participate in the shootout.

Do you think that means that the Vizio P Series will be out by May?

-fafrd
post #359 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Oh well, R will have to wait (at least) another year then. Better than no Vizio at all!

I'm actually encouraged about what it says regarding the potential quality of the P Series. I doubt Vizio would have wanted to participate in a shootout they believed they would have little chance of showing well in.

At least versus last years top LED/LCDs (Samsung F8000 and Sony X900A), Vizio must believe that the FALD P Series would be those two 2013 class-leading edge-lit LED/LCDs hands-down...

-fafrd

p.s. and if it also means that the P Series may be available closer to May than to August, that's a bonus!
Edited by fafrd - 2/25/14 at 11:29am
post #360 of 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post


Do you think that means that the Vizio P Series will be out by May?

-fafrd

It's a maybe. Otherwise, the shootout might be delayed. That's one of the reasons why the date is not set yet

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