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Dual 15" Epik Empire drivers build

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Hi,

Let me first say, the wealth of knowledge on these forums is invaluable, let me thank you for your time in advance. I'm hoping to build a dual 15" driver sub. I need help with ideas and modeling.

The drivers are from an Epik Empire sub.:

T/S Specs
Znom 8 ohms
Re 5.7 ohms
Sd 805 cm^2
Pmax 400 W
Mms 200 g
Cms 250 uM/N
Vas 231 L
Fs 22.5 Hz
BL 23
Qms 4.1066
Qes 0.3061
Qts 0.2848
Le 3.15 mH
Spl 91.192 1W/1M
Xmax 13

I really want to get lots of low low bass from this thing for use in home theater. I have a HSU VTF2-MK3 and it makes solid wood doors resonate in my basement (a very cool thing i think) I love the feeling of bass in the air and hunger for more... So low end is important.

Any help would be great!

thanks,

Pete
Edited by corradizo - 1/22/14 at 6:14pm
post #2 of 17
Ok, so first off, you definitely do not want the drivers to touch! I believe that you are thinking about possibly wiring the drivers together in series or parrellel connects. You probably read somewhere fhat the drivers should be wired together, and misunderstood what the purpose of that is. You don't want the actual drivers touching, but depending on the drivers you go with, the may have to be wired a certain for when using a duel opposed enclosure.

Also, I highly recommend that you step up to the iNuke3000dsp as the iNuke1000dsp is a little weak for two subs. If you go with the iNuke3000dsp, and assuming those drivers are a single 4 ohm voice coil on each, then I would recommend wiring them in series for a 2 ohm load on the amp. Do a search for series wiring diagrams for a detailed blueprint.

If it were me in your shoes, I would highly recommend building two subs in leu of one duel opposed sub as having two or more subs located in the proper places inside yore room will help smooth the response and give better seat to seat coverage than having a single duel opposed sub.

Another possibility that I would highly recommend. Is to build seperate, ported enclosures as they will have more output in the lower frequencies around the tuning point. Sealed subs take lots of power and the also require EQ to boost the bottom end and smooth out the response. If you are dead set on going sealed, I would highly recommend you get a MiniDsp and a UMIK-1 to measure and EQ, or use the dsp version of the iNuke, and purchase a USB mic from perhaps Cross Spectrum Labs of MiniDsp. Hope this helps!
post #3 of 17
This is the image he is talking about. It is an advertising image and not a technical image. Actually, nearly that whole page is advertising with technical talked splashed around it to try and add validity to marketing. This is, again, a class case of the sales people talking to the engineers and only taking what they wanted to hear. However, it is possible that Epik made a motor "assembly" with two motors inside. However, it is definitely not two woofers "bolted" together.

The "technology" is classic opposed. It does gain some efficiency but not massive compared to a signal woofer in a box. However, the woofers do not even need to be near each other to gain hte benefit. They just need to have the motors facing each other. Not more and nothing less. There are some nice twists on that but that is another topic. It is a nice page. The average person my be gotten by their siren's song. Glad you came here and asked first.

And no, do not bolt the drivers together. Bad mojo for discrete drivers.

post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 
Phew! I'm glad to have some clarity on that. So it seems when they are in the Empire they are close, but not touching or maybe a piece of wood or something braces them to each other mechanically?

The drivers are 8ohm so i thought i would wire them in parallel and so i'd get 4ohm's. If i did get a NU3000 my options are 2 x 880 at 4ohm so i'd only be able to use one channel and would get 440 watts to each driver. The amp also allows for a bridged mode that would put out 3000 watts to 4ohms but wouldn't that be way too much? From all the modeling i've been doing the most i can throw at them seems to be in the 1000 to 1200 watt range (together meaning 500 to 600 watts a piece). I'm no expert, faaaar from it. So maybe i have this wrong.

I've been talking to the wife about two boxes and she's not going for it. So i basically have one spot where i can put it that is roughly 24 tall, 20 wide and 22 long to work with. I have been modeling the drivers opposed in this size box tuned to 10hz with HP and LP filters applied and it seems like it could work (although i'd need a 2.5" port that's 25inches long...kinda strange). I've attached the winisd file if you'd like to take a look (any help would be spectacular). I suspect my modeling is flawed. DualEpikOpposedVented.txt 2k .txt file

thanks so much!

Pete
post #5 of 17
First off, get the idea out of your head that the drivers have to be touching in any way shape or form. The drivers would not function if they are touching, or have a piece of wood connected to each end! The absolutely must have space in between the magnets of each sub! The only connection between the two will be the wires for what ever series or parallel connection you prefer.

Also, if you want my opinion, a 10hz tune may be way too low, as a mater of fact, I don't think that I can recall ever seeing any sub with a 10hz tune! I highly doubt those drivers will do 10hz, although I could be wrong. An 18hz or 20hz tune might be more realistic!
post #6 of 17
Thread Starter 
It is gone, I promise! I found a pic of the inside of the Empire sub and saw that the drivers were about an inch and half apart. Why is 10hz bad? The graphs seem to indicate I'd get output in that range all the way up.
post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 
So the drivers will be here this week. I picked up a copy of bass box pro and have been trying it. It seems to warn you when what you are trying to do is out of range. ...like a 10hz tune. It won't let me lower the Fb below 22hz and seems to make the boxes smaller. Is this as more or less of a realistic tool to use?
post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post

It is gone, I promise! I found a pic of the inside of the Empire sub and saw that the drivers were about an inch and half apart. Why is 10hz bad? The graphs seem to indicate I'd get output in that range all the way up.

Yes, the drivers can be close ,but not touching.

Just about any driver can be made to go as low as you want with the right variables satisfied.
The problem is that the enclosure becomes large, the port too long, and the response curve can get really ugly.
Edited by jpmst3 - 1/23/14 at 2:02pm
post #9 of 17
I don't have WinISD here at work so I don't know what you did in WinISD. Using the t/s parameters you listed above, according to Unibox, a good size for a ported enclosure with these drivers would be around 160 liters tuned to 31 Hz. The cabinet size you mentioned would give you maybe 100 to 120 liters after accounting for the drivers and port volume would still benefit from a tune around 30 Hz. You will be throwing away low end output in this small of an enclosure though. Tuning to 10 Hz makes this look just about like a sealed enclosure, not to mention that you would need a 5 foot long port.
post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 


Here is where i'm at. I've compared dual sealed with dual opposed vented with a side slot.
post #11 of 17
Rememeber with sealed, EQ is typically added to boost the bottom end. That would be present in the Epik amplifier for this model.
It is easy enough to add with DSP on an amp or outboard DCX or miniDSP, etc.

Unless you have an issue with duplicating the original design, that is what I would do here.
post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Rememeber with sealed, EQ is typically added to boost the bottom end. That would be present in the Epik amplifier for this model.
It is easy enough to add with DSP on an amp or outboard DCX or miniDSP, etc.

Unless you have an issue with duplicating the original design, that is what I would do here.

Thanks jpmst3,

I was going to pair this with either a inuke1000DSP or 3000DSP (dirvers are 8ohm, so i'd parallel them to the amp bridged at 4ohm) so that i could have a HP filter for the ported configuration. It seems the same amp with the DSP could help me boost the bottom end of it if i went sealed (and probably allow for more power handling by the subs). I guess i was hoping to do something different to extract maximum low end from the sub. So that's why i've been modeling it incessantly (and also because i'm really enjoying learning about all of the various parameters at play and learning to balance them). Are you saying I can mimic the same graphs that a ported sub would produce with these drivers given the same amount of power with an EQ? If that is possible, i would do sealed as I think that would allow for me to benefit on the bottom end as you suggest while keeping the systems transient response optimal. Decisions Decisions!

In the mean time, here are the box parameters that BBP game me (see attached pics) for the graphs above. BBP seems to make the enclosure smaller than WINISD and UNIBOX. The only time i can get BBP to get closee to WinISD is to turn off the modeling it has and switch it to classic modeling.






thanks,

Pete
post #13 of 17
Thread Starter 
Let me try that again, i uploaded an earlier design. This design has the subs opposed and the slot port along the bottom length of the sub firing into the space. This way i can use a 1" slot that is longer on the inside to lower the port velocity a bit too.

Please let me know if this design would work or if i'm way off. thanks again guys!




post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 
Do my graphs look OK ? I have it set to heavy damping. Is that OK? Thinking to start building this bad boy soon.
post #15 of 17
Thread Starter 
I picked up an inuke 3000 dsp today from Sweetwater for $279 shipped (free shipping). I also convinced my wife to let me build two boxes to put one on either side of the entertainment center. Since the drivers are 8 ohms i thought id bridge the amp to get 2075w at 4ohms or 1037.5w per driver. When modeling them in bassbox pro I get a vb of 1.3cu ft. Only at 10hz and below does the driver get close to xmax. So that plus drivers plus bracing has me building a 16" or 17" cubes? Will 1000w per driver blow them up?

Cheers,

Pete
post #16 of 17
Thread Starter 
Ordered up the speakon and xlr connectors today. Im planning to put the sealed 15" single subs on either side of the console. As you can see the sitting area is outside of the nook (its 14wide). My only other option is where my vtf2-mk3 sits which is next to the end of the couch in the nook.
post #17 of 17
Thread Starter 


Loving this setup!!!
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