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How soon before 4k projectors cost $5-6k? - Page 2

post #31 of 72
Japanese street price being $6.5k US for the Sony500 and $13.5k for the Sony1100, think we may see sub $5k 4k projectors announced by the end of the year.

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post #32 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Japanese street price being $6.5k US for the Sony500 and $13.5k for the Sony1100, think we may see sub $5k 4k projectors announced by the end of the year.

You are not going to see the Sony projectors at that price point here in the US. No dealer is going to sell Sony projectors at a huge loss, no matter how much you wish it to happen.
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post #33 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

You are not going to see the Sony projectors at that price point here in the US. No dealer is going to sell Sony projectors at a huge loss, no matter how much you wish it to happen.

Assuming Sony isn't selling at below cost to Japanese dealers, they could lower U.S. dealer prices.
post #34 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

You are not going to see the Sony projectors at that price point here in the US. No dealer is going to sell Sony projectors at a huge loss, no matter how much you wish it to happen.

I agree not this year's crop, but I doubt they are selling these currently in Japan at a loss, the U.S current price point is high in comparison, if the market can stand it, why not charge it. I think next years 500/600 replacement model or entry model that may be announced later this year will street in the U.S for similar money or less than the 500/600 unit sells for currently in Japan.(speculating). I feel with the introduction of 4K Bluray, a less bright and less expensive 4K entry model could be on the cards.

Appears a higher end model the 2000 laser engined, if Thebes is correct, will take top spot, no doubt with premium pricing.
post #35 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

I agree not this year's crop, but I doubt they are selling these currently in Japan at a loss, the U.S current price point is high in comparison, if the market can stand it, why not charge it. I think next years 500/600 replacement model or entry model that may be announced later this year will street in the U.S for similar money or less than the 500/600 unit sells for currently in Japan.(speculating). I feel with the introduction of 4K Bluray, a less bright and less expensive 4K entry model could be on the cards.

Appears a higher end model the 2000 laser engined, if Thebes is correct, will take top spot, no doubt with premium pricing.

Perhaps a VW95 replacement next year that is an entry-level 4K model in the $7K to $9K MSRP price range. That's probably the most optimistic scenario we can realistically expect from Sony with their 2015 USA 4K models.

Sony's current 4K panels are 0.74" while their 1080p panels are 0.61". If Sony can develop a smaller 4K panel this will reduce the cost for the projector's optics, but probably also give up a little in performance.


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Edited by Ron Jones - 1/17/14 at 6:47am
post #36 of 72
Everybody was hoping the HW55ES was going to be the replacement for the 95, but that did not happen. It would be nice to have a lower priced Sony with lens memory.
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post #37 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Until there is another source for good 4K content, besides Sony, there is not as much incentive for other companies to build 4K projectors. Since 4K BD's and 4K BD players do not exist yet and may not exist until next year, I would not hold my breath for a less than $6,000 4K projector this year. Currently the only 4K projectors are the Sony's and you are not going to find them anywhere near that price point.

 

I agree, I might be very tempted to pony up the cash for the 600, if there were BR UHD new release movies and UHD players, but as it stands now I wouldn't upgrade from my vw95 to a 4K pj unless it were sub $5k.

post #38 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Or even 2016 or 17. And who's to say 8K projectors won't rear their heads by then to just jack with your mind? eek.gif

If only I had an accurate crystal ball ! wink.gif

 

I've heard the ones made my ISCO are pretty accurate :)

post #39 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Perhaps a VW95 replacement next year that is an entry-level 4K model in the $7K to $9K MSRP price range. That's probably the most optimistic scenario we can realistically expect from Sony with their 2015 USA 4K models.

Sony's current 4K panels are 0.74" while their 1080p panels are 0.61". If Sony can develop a smaller 4K panel this will reduce the cost for the projector's optics, but probably also give up a little in performance.

Sounds like BluRay 4k will be available end of 2014, if so, hardware manufacturers would be gearing up to sate the market. Projection wise the volume sellers seem to be in the $4k-6k segment?, in 2015 Sony will have competition in the consumer 4k projection arena, JVC for one, pricing will have to be competitive. We are seeing Panasonic quad shifting a 2k chip to give a 4k end result, possibility other DLP projector manufacturers may follow along the same lines offering consumer versions.

Either way the consumer will be getting a wider range and hopefully at price points that will encourage spending.
post #40 of 72
Hi,

how soon ?

Maybe before the end of this year according to a Taiwanese forum's member who have had some inofficial information from somebody working at T.I. Taiwan :

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://www.myav.com.tw/bbs/showthread.php%3Fs%3De070726dc65feca071ad40890ee8762e%26threadid%3D20465700&usg=ALkJrhh36jTy7EiVfyvEmoXddGpvlW_jOA
Edited by Thebes - 3/27/14 at 5:57am
post #41 of 72
I believe the part about 4K DLP "this year", as in announced at CEDIA for release late 2014 or early 2015, based on the rumors I've heard on this forum.

But I don't believe it will be $3999-$4999. I'd be expecting something from Sim2/DPI/DP etc, in the $20k+ range.

That said if there's a good 4K DLP this year for <$10k, I'll be interested to say the least.
post #42 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


You are not going to see the Sony projectors at that price point here in the US. No dealer is going to sell Sony projectors at a huge loss, no matter how much you wish it to happen.

 

Not sure I understand your logic; perhaps you should add the qualifier this year?

 

My point being, it's clear for anyone looking at Japanese pricing, Sony is selling their 4K units in the US at approximately a 100% markup over Japan MSRP.  You've indicated that reported Japanese street pricing is less than dealer cost in the US and I can understand that point.  But this scenario would indicate there is either something skewed with the pricing model or there is room for a lower price point for both the US dealer and consumer even in this years models.  The other possibility is that Sony is subsidizing the lower Japanese price point with the higher North American MSRP.  It's also clear that Japanese street pricing answers the OP's question.

 

This difference in pricing should be no surprise to anyone who has been on AVS forums for a length of time as there is a long history, going back 10-12 years, of people importing from Japan because of price.  There was a very loud buzz on this forum when the first really good DLP's from Marantz and Sharp could be had from Japan for much lower prices.  Marantz even went to the trouble to block the English menu from the Japanese sold units to discourage import.

 

It's no secret that Sony is in financial trouble.  If Sony didn't have 4K to create a buzz at the moment they would have little presence on this forum, or the market for that matter, and 2014 JVC projectors would be the ones standing in the limelight.  For the most part, Sony has unremarkable product offerings in consumer electronics at this time.

 

Sony has an exclusive 4K market at the moment and they are taking advantage of it.  As competition increases, a 4K distribution system surfaces that is not Sony proprietary, and real 4K content is available, I'm sure prices will come down.  One year two years, who knows.  But IMHO, it ain't going nowhere for the masses until there is real content.  And by real content I mean 4K work flow, not 1080P or 2K up-scaled or scanned to 4K as there is simply not enough quality difference at current pricing for the majority of people to dump what they have now.


Edited by b curry - 3/27/14 at 7:11am
post #43 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Not sure I understand your logic; perhaps you should add the qualifier this year?

My point being, it's clear for anyone looking at Japanese pricing, Sony is selling their 4K units in the US at approximately a 100% markup over Japan MSRP.  You've indicated that reported Japanese street pricing is less than dealer cost in the US and I can understand that point.  But this scenario would indicate there is either something skewed with the pricing model or there is room for a lower price point for both the US dealer and consumer even in this years models.  The other possibility is that Sony is subsidizing the lower Japanese price point with the higher North American MSRP.  It's also clear that Japanese street pricing answers the OP's question.

This difference in pricing should be no surprise to anyone who has been on AVS forums for a length of time as there is a long history, going back 10-12 years, of people importing from Japan because of price.  There was a very loud buzz on this forum when the first really good DLP's from Marantz and Sharp could be had from Japan for much lower prices.  Marantz even went to the trouble to block the English menu from the Japanese sold units to discourage import.

It's no secret that Sony is in financial trouble.  If Sony didn't have 4K to create a buzz at the moment they would have little presence on this forum, or the market for that matter, and 2014 JVC projectors would be the ones standing in the limelight.  For the most part, Sony has unremarkable product offerings in consumer electronics at this time.

Sony has an exclusive 4K market at the moment and they are taking advantage of it.  As competition increases, a 4K distribution system surfaces that is not Sony proprietary, and real 4K content is available, I'm sure prices will come down.  One year two years, who knows.  But IMHO, it ain't going nowhere for the masses until there is real content.  And by real content I mean 4K work flow, not 1080P or 2K up-scaled or scanned to 4K as there is simply not enough difference for the majority of people to dump what they have now.

The qualifier was already there. I quoted a poster saying he thought the price could reach 4k or 5k by the end of this year. I said it is not going to happen. US dealers are not going to sell below cost. My response makes perfect sense and is correct, when it is not taken out of context. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512159/how-soon-before-4k-projectors-cost-5-6k/30#post_24223691
Of course due to import duties and taxes the US price is always going to be higher. I am not trying to justify the current price, just saying the price will never be as low here in the US as it is in Japan, for Sony products. Of course, 4k projector prices will come down as there is more competition. That is the natural progression of things. Believe me, I would love to have a good 4K projector selling for 5K. Would sell a ton of them. smile.gif
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post #44 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


The qualifier was already there. I quoted a poster saying he thought the price could reach 4k or 5k by the end of this year. I said it is not going to happen. US dealers are not going to sell below cost. My response makes perfect sense and is correct, when it is not taken out of context. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512159/how-soon-before-4k-projectors-cost-5-6k/30#post_24223691
Of course due to import duties and taxes the US price is always going to be higher. I am not trying to justify the current price, just saying the price will never be as low here in the US as it is in Japan, for Sony products. Of course, 4k projector prices will come down as there is more competition. That is the natural progression of things. Believe me, I would love to have a good 4K projector selling for 5K. Would sell a ton of them. smile.gif

 

Perhaps semantics then as I believe I quoted you direct.  In context, the post you reference said "...think we may see sub $5k 4k projectors announced by the end of the year" where your post referenced selling.  Sorry for the misunderstanding but the words I read implied something different.  :)

 

Anyhow it's clear that the answer to the original post is there is a true 4K projector, from Sony, available now at the approximate price he references all be it with geographic or by country price controls in place  What is perhaps even more remarkable is that it is available at this price point within a few weeks after it became available for sale.  If I look at the Japanese MSRP and the street price, they also seem to be in line with the typical discount one might expect to receive on this type of product.

 

The only conclusion I can draw from this fact is that a sub $6000 4K Sony projector being released in the next 12 months is a plausible idea and that would make an announcement before year end, say CEDIA also a possibility.  It just might not happen here in North America at the desired price point.  Who knows, time will tell.

post #45 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Perhaps semantics then as I believe I quoted you direct.  In context, the post you reference said "...think we may see sub $5k 4k projectors announced by the end of the year" where your post referenced selling.  Sorry for the misunderstanding but the words I read implied something different.  smile.gif

Anyhow it's clear that the answer to the original post is there is a true 4K projector, from Sony, available now at the approximate price he references all be it with geographic or by country price controls in place  What is perhaps even more remarkable is that it is available at this price point within a few weeks after it became available for sale.  If I look at the Japanese MSRP and the street price, they also seem to be in line with the typical discount one might expect to receive on this type of product.

The only conclusion I can draw from this fact is that a sub $6000 4K Sony projector being released in the next 12 months is a plausible idea and that would make an announcement before year end, say CEDIA also a possibility.  It just might not happen here in North America at the desired price point.  Who knows, time will tell.

Out of context because you removed what the quote was referencing. Like if I was talking about the sky around the sun when rising and setting is blue and you replied that is not correct. Your comment would appear correct. But if I was replying to the sky on Mars, then it would make perfect sense.

Selling at that price point will happen before announced at that price point occurs. Change the wording in my post from selling to announced, it does not matter. Manufacturer's announced prices are MSRP. I don't see any posable way a manufacturer announces a 4k projector at the 4K to 5k price point. That would put the street price below 4k. Still say it is not going to happen, no matter how much we wish that it did. Like I said, I am not against this. Would love to see it happen.
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post #46 of 72
People around here forget that projector companies build these things and sell them to make money. I wish someone would build an ISCO III quality lens for $2K. I wish I could buy cases of 99 point Brunello for $20.00 a bottle. Unfortunately, it costs a lot of money to run a company and design / build these things. Anyway, if they do announce a $5K UHD projector at CEDIA, I won't want it. The $10K one will be better. wink.gif
post #47 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Out of context because you removed what the quote was referencing. Like if I was talking about the sky around the sun when rising and setting is blue and you replied that is not correct. Your comment would appear correct. But if I was replying to the sky on Mars, then it would make perfect sense.

Selling at that price point will happen before announced at that price point occurs. Change the wording in my post from selling to announced, it does not matter. Manufacturer's announced prices are MSRP. I don't see any posable way a manufacturer announces a 4k projector at the 4K to 5k price point. That would put the street price below 4k. Still say it is not going to happen, no matter how much we wish that it did. Like I said, I am not against this. Would love to see it happen.

I think the point is, that unless Sony is selling the 500 for a loss in Japan, there's a lot of room for them to reduce pricing and still sell it for a profit in the US, if they wanted to (like if there were any competition).
post #48 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I think the point is, that unless Sony is selling the 500 for a loss in Japan, there's a lot of room for them to reduce pricing and still sell it for a profit in the US, if they wanted to (like if there were any competition).

Agree, they should be able to sell it for 2K more here and make the same profit as selling in Japan, once you deduct the additional costs for taxes, duty, extra shipping and handling. That leaves room for the price to come down quite a ways. Just not to the price sold in Japan. smile.gif
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post #49 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


Out of context because you removed what the quote was referencing. Like if I was talking about the sky around the sun when rising and setting is blue and you replied that is not correct. Your comment would appear correct. But if I was replying to the sky on Mars, then it would make perfect sense.

Selling at that price point will happen before announced at that price point occurs. Change the wording in my post from selling to announced, it does not matter. Manufacturer's announced prices are MSRP. I don't see any posable way a manufacturer announces a 4k projector at the 4K to 5k price point. That would put the street price below 4k. Still say it is not going to happen, no matter how much we wish that it did. Like I said, I am not against this. Would love to see it happen.

 

Thanks for the unsolicited astronomy lesson.

 

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the issue of context.  I quoted you in exactly the same way you yourself use the quotation system on the forum today as evidenced by any one of your posts where you reference a quote.  That is, click the quote button and reply.  A shortcut return button appears next to the persons name you have quoted that affords the reader the opportunity to page back for reference, context if you will, in regards to the quote.  This method of quoting is as consistent with forum use today as it was when I joined AVS Forum in 2002.  I have not changed nor altered any of your words.  Not sure why but you seem to be irritated with this issue and it is not my intention to cause you irritation.  However, I'm beginning to get a little PO'ed at your insistence that I've quoted you out of context.  Enough said.

 

I fully understand that manufactures only announce MSRP's.  I also understand that a savvy consumer can negotiate a discount as I have bought my 3rd projector from AVS in the last weeks.  I also understand that Sony has announced different MSRP's at nearly 2X for the same product or corporate twins in the case of the VLP-VW 600/500es depending on what country you may live in; how does one explain that?  For sure it is not all shipping, taxes, and import duties.  Sony also offer's different levels of service by law or market driven consideration depending on the country that may influence price.

 

My point relative to the original post starting this thread (How soon before 4k projectors cost $5-6k?) and to the post of Highjinx that you claim I took out of context is that a 4K projector from Sony is available for approximately this price now.  Now, you or AVS or other Sony dealers in North America may not sell it for this price for any of a number of reasons, but it is available.  It would be some what naïve or some form of denial to not recognize this pricing exists today for the product all be it outside North America.  It is with this fact in mind that IMHO it is plausible for Sony to come to market with this kind of price point in the near future.

 

At some point some level of Moore's Law will kick in and Sony will stop producing 1080P 2K SXRD chips as it will become an economic disadvantage.  Also, Japan is set to begin 4K broadcast TV in July this year and this is 2 years ahead of their schedule.  It would appear there are competitive incentives outside North America at work.  As I stated before, I'm more concerned about getting real 4K content in the near future.  We are not going to get 4K broadcast TV in North America any time soon.  The display hardware is going to come and prices will drop.

post #50 of 72
Personally I think most will be surprised when 4K projectors get here. I think the folks who say it will be a "long" time are wrong since history has generally shown that new technology arrives rather quickly. I know personally I'm surprised how quickly 4K TVs have become "normal". But at the other end of the spectrum, I doubt we'll see sub $5000 4k projectors yet for the 2015 model year, though I wouldn't be surprised to see some sub $10000, or even sub $8000 ones announced at CEDIA.

I'd love to believe rumours like $5000 4k DLPs this year, but well, history just doesn't bear out jumps in technology like that coming out initially at such a low price point.
post #51 of 72
Astronomy and Moore's Law in the same post. Another AV Science Forum first. smile.gif I think you guys should now work in the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. Meanwhile I am going to call Avogadro's number on my cell phone.
Edited by mark haflich - 3/27/14 at 2:15pm
post #52 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Japanese street price being $6.5k US for the Sony500 and $13.5k for the Sony1100, think we may see sub $5k 4k projectors announced by the end of the year.

It took an entire page, but someone finally got the right answer. The answer to the OP is 4th quarter of this year... bet on it. The VW600 can be had for sub $10K in the US as it is. Prices are going to get much more interesting this year in an effort to give 4K some lifespan (leading into 8K) and to encourage additional media outlets.
post #53 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Astronomy and Moore's Law in the same post. Another AV Science Forum first. smile.gif I think you guys should now work in the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. Meanwhile I am going to call Avogado's number on my cell phone.

 

Did you mean Avogadro or Avocado?  If it's Avogadro I've got his number do you have the area code?

post #54 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Personally I think most will be surprised when 4K projectors get here. I think the folks who say it will be a "long" time are wrong since history has generally shown that new technology arrives rather quickly. I know personally I'm surprised how quickly 4K TVs have become "normal". But at the other end of the spectrum, I doubt we'll see sub $5000 4k projectors yet for the 2015 model year, though I wouldn't be surprised to see some sub $10000, or even sub $8000 ones announced at CEDIA.

I'd love to believe rumours like $5000 4k DLPs this year, but well, history just doesn't bear out jumps in technology like that coming out initially at such a low price point.

I think with the price, most think that we won't see 4K quality projectors that are in the 500/600ES or 1000/1100ES class. If JVC brings a 4K projector it, it will be something similar to Sony's quality, but others will not be able to produce something that is close to its quality. There will be other companies that will cut corners with the lens, processing, and contrast. It is going to happen, not all projectors will be in Sony and JVC class, because not all 1080p projectors are. How much will companies risk making a 4K HT projector with lesser quality parts in this market? They are already struggling to make profits in the HT market, so would they be willing to make a cheap 4K projector? It will definitely have to be in the $2000 MSRP range. AVS forum is not large enough to make profits for these companies.
post #55 of 72
Quote:
Personally I think most will be surprised when 4K projectors get here. I think the folks who say it will be a "long" time are wrong since history has generally shown that new technology arrives rather quickly.

And 5 years later I'm still waiting for widespread bright LED or laser projectors. That hasn't arrived quickly.
post #56 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

And 5 years later I'm still waiting for widespread bright LED or laser projectors. That hasn't arrived quickly.

Yep, at CEDIA 2010, I was told by one projector company that they would have laser out in three years. Still waiting. I guess we will see this fall.
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post #57 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Of course due to import duties and taxes the US price is always going to be higher. I am not trying to justify the current price, just saying the price will never be as low here in the US as it is in Japan, for Sony products.
It seems to me that the Sony 4k projectors are more the exception more than the rule. I don't see a huge discrepency with their other projectors and don't recall seeing it with the VW90 or VW95.

I also don't see it with JVC and didn't with Panasonic the last few years either.

What is special about the import duties and taxes for Sony with these projectors that doesn't seem to cause the "never" to be true for all the projectors they've sold here and doesn't seem to apply to their competition either?

I just checked a Sony receiver. I can get it in the US for $498 shipped or from Japan for $650.

--Darin
Edited by darinp2 - 3/27/14 at 1:40pm
post #58 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post


It seems to me that the Sony 4k projectors are more the exception more than the rule. I don't see a huge discrepency with their other projectors and don't recall seeing it with the VW90 or VW95.

I also don't see it with JVC and didn't with Panasonic the last few years either.

What is special about the import duties and taxes for Sony with these projectors that doesn't seem to cause the "never" to be true for all the projectors they've sold here and doesn't seem to apply to their competition either?

I just checked a Sony receiver. I can get it in the US for $498 shipped or from Japan for $650.

--Darin

 

Your experience parallels mine.  I travel through Japan 5-6 times a year and with the current exchange rates most Asian branded projectors including the 2K Sony's can be had in the US at a street price approximately equal to or maybe a little less with the total roll up than the price in Japan.  Import duties run about 5%.  Uncle Sam doesn't discriminate by brand.

 

The pricing is generally so close it makes a moot point of buying a gray market product.


Edited by b curry - 3/27/14 at 2:16pm
post #59 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Did you mean Avogadro or Avocado?  If it's Avogadro I've got his number do you have the area code?

My bad. typo. I actually looked up the correct spelling and then mistyped it.

In engineering school, we sang this song and one of the lines was

"I don't know Avogadro's number, he ain't got no phone."
post #60 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


My bad. typo. I actually looked up the correct spelling and then mistyped it.

In engineering school, we sang this song and one of the lines was

"I don't know Avogadro's number, he ain't got no phone."

 

:)

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