Blu-ray with different color grading

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 16, 2014

...or, the "Teal & Orange" syndrome has infected more directors than we could think of! (^^,)

(link to a couple blog entries - Into the Abyss - Not on Blu-Ray )

Many are aware there are some Blu-ray titles that have altered colors in comparison to DVD (or other sources), but which ones are affected?

If you think/feel/suspect that a given BD titles has the wrong color writing, what are the options?

Stick with the DVD (or other source) even if definition is worse.
Wait for a new edition with the right color grading - it happens... sometimes!
Watch a fan preservation project.

Well, option 1 is up to you... when option 2 is available, a reissue: note will be added, followed by the specific BD version; when option 3 is available, a fan project note will be added.

MOVIES WITH *DIFFERENT* COLOR GRADING - UPDATED LIST: 2014-01-16

movie title - type of color grading problem, if known - options

A.I. Artificial Intelligence

Ace Ventura

Ace Ventura 2

Alien

Alien vs. Predator: Requiem - too dark

Alien Resurrection

Aliens - blue cast

Army of Darkness - few differences

Batman

Batman Returns

Beauty and the Beast - fan project WIP

Big Trouble In Little China

Bram Stoker's Dracula

Bravehearth

A Clockwork Orange

Contact

Curse of Frankenstein

The Day After Tomorrow - few differences

The Deep

Daylight - few differences

Do the Right Thing - too "natural" look

Duck You Sucker - very green/brownish and washed out

Escape from New York - blue cast + warmed colors - fan project

E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial - few differences

Eyes Wide Shut

The Exorcist - various type - fan project

The Fifth Element - few differences

The Fog

The French Connection - "pastel" look - reissue: BestBuy exclusive BD

Gladiator - few differences

Godzilla - few differences

The Great Escape - Teal & Orange

Halloween - too "natural" look Vs THX DVD - fan project

Hellboy - few differences

Horror of Dracula - too cold

Jurassic Park - fan project

Labyrinth

Léon (a.k.a. The Professional)

Lord of The Rings (extended edition) - green cast

Night of the Living Dead (1990)

A Nightmare on Elm Street

Mad Max 2 (a.k.a. The Road Warrior)

Minority Report - too "natural" look - fan project WIP

Mission: Impossible

The Mask - too saturated

The Matrix - green cast to match sequels - fan project

Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End - few differences

Raiders of the Lost Ark - gold

The Searchers

The Shining

The Silence of the Lambs - colder than CC DVD

Soylent Green - too green (^^,)

Stargate - few differences

Superman I

Superman II

Superman III

Superman IV

Superman V

Suspiria

The Ten Commandments

Terminator 2: Judgement Day

Terminator 3: Rise of The Machines

The Thing - blue cast on whites + warmed colors - fan project

Titanic

Total Recall (1990) - fan project WIP

Waterworld - few differences

modern Bond transfers (of old titles) have all wrong colors (but I need titles...)

notes: few differences = sometimes are barely noticeable, other times limited only to some scenes - it depends by the equipments used, the calibration made, and the eyes of the viewers...

warning: the fact that a Blu-ray has a *different* color grading does not necessarily means that it's wrong! Maybe is how the director wanted it, but at least we have the knowledge of the existence of different versions (color wise) and we could make our choice.

about fan preservation projects: DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL!

If you are aware of a fan preservation project that resolved the color grading problems AND it is released in Blu-ray format in high definition, just mention the eventual version but DON'T post link or reference to web sites or other places where it could be obtained. Even if a fan preservation project could be considered "fair use", it is still a grey area so it's better to be safe than sorry! And remember: if you want to watch a fan preservation project, you must obtain it FOR FREE and you SHOULD OWN the commercial edition: piracy will be not tolerated!

Any correction, addition, opinion, link to screenshot comparison is welcome!

Please write the movie titles in bold, as it will be easier to find them.

Some interesting links to find out color grading differences:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512231/xylons-comparison-pix-threads/0_50 http://www.avsforum.com/t/1512231/xylons-comparison-pix-threads/0_50

http://www.caps-a-holic.com http://www.caps-a-holic.com

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com http://www.screenshotcomparison.com

http://www.movie-censorship.com http://www.movie-censorship.com

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 16, 2014

(reserved for future use, like resolved titles)

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 16, 2014

(reserved for future use, like Blu-ray titles that are different from DVD or other source, but are acclaimed to have the right color grading)

DavidHir · Jan 16, 2014

The major issue with this thread is the assumption the DVD is the correct timing. I never understood that since most DVDs push magenta and were mastered under situations where standards were anything but. With laserdiscs in the analog world, even worse. No one truly knows what the original color timing was of a movie short of an actual film print that has not deteriorated. What is your source for these claims that all of the Blus have incorrect timing?

Furthermore, no one has any business judging the color timing of any Blu unless at minimum their display has been professionally calibrated or at least competently DIY. Rec 709 absolutely required since that is how Blu-rays are mastered. Most people's grayscale and color points are so far off they are not seeing how Blus were really mastered or what they truly look like in terms of color.

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 16, 2014

I quote myself:

Quote:
warning: the fact that a Blu-ray has a *different* color grading does not necessarily means that it's wrong! Maybe is how the director wanted it, but at least we have the knowledge of the existence of different versions (color wise) and we could make our choice.

So, I don't assume all the BDs in the list have wrong color grading; but, let's say it's true; they are what? 0.01% of all released titles? And don't you think that it *could* be possible they all have wrong color grading? I started the thread to raise opinions, and I'm ready to delete/add titles based on general consensus.

Quote:
notes: few differences = sometimes are barely noticeable, other times limited only to some scenes - it depends by the equipments used, the calibration made, and the eyes of the viewers...

My equipments are good, display is well calibrated, and my eyes have a perfect color vision ; still - I agree with you - I'm the first to admit that it's difficult to prove which version has the *right* color correction, but after the same title had several releases, each one stating "the color grading in this edition IS the right one" while each has a different color grading from the others, I don't know which is right and which is wrong...

If I can, I much prefer the high definition of the Blu-ray, without its eventual DVNR problems, and the colors of the laserdisc (at bottom, preservation project using HD-DVD as main video source and LD as color reference):

Then, if you think laserdisc (top) is wrong while Blu-ray (in the middle) is right, and snow should be blue-ish, or a husky dog should NOT be black and white, or a man at South Pole should look like a lobster, well, you can always continue to watch it!

Obviously this is an extreme example, and EVERYBODY will note this; nevertheless, when I stated "few differences", I mean it - I'm able to discern the differences in color grading looking at screenshots - even if often they are subtle - while my wife can't... still, they are real; in these instances, I will surely stick with these BDs! But I added them for completion's sake.

rdgrimes · Jan 16, 2014

The problem here stems from the assumption that any of the variations are "wrong". To the extent that a release represents the film maker's intention, it's "right". The intention of a film maker can change over the years, so unless someone has direct knowledge of the film maker's intent, all assumptions are wrong.

This poll is blatantly skewed to the assumption that any of the releases are wrong in the above sense. In any case the color timing has no bearing on my choice to watch the BD or not. So my response to the poll is "none of the above".

nathanddrews · Jan 16, 2014

It seems that the goal here is not to find what is wrong (difficult as the OP states), but to document what is different. I support this endeavor.

As long as people can agree to stick to that, it shouldn't become a troll-zone.

NJPete · Jan 16, 2014

How was the above list of titles arrived at?

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 16, 2014

Glad someone has understood the purpose of this thread: it doesn't matter what I or you think about the color grading - if the BD has the right one, or the DVD, or neither... the point is to find out IF the BD version has a different color grading from DVD, or from another source (HD-DVD, HDTV, laserdisc etc.).

It's up to each of us to find out which is the right one - that does not necessarily mean the *right* one! Just visit one (or more) site linked at the end of the first post, and find yourself the answer... or, better, if you have both the BD and DVD (or other source) just make yourself a comparison, and post results here, to help us all.

About the list: many are taken from other forum's members, and they are valuable; some are movies that I have myself, both on DVD and Blu-ray; others I have only in one format (DVD or Blu-ray) and was curious if their color grading were the same for both; they are the only ones I found myself - the "few differences" - based solely on screenshot comparisons.

These are the titles I need more info!

Phantom Stranger · Jan 16, 2014

The number one example has to be Bram Stoker's Dracula. Sony claims to have dug up an answer print as a reference that looks nothing like any prior home or theatrical showing. Twilight Time's Night of the Living Dead (1990) has a drastically altered color grading from DVD.

42041 · Jan 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.laserdisc.ws /t/1512245/blu-ray-with-different-color-grading#post_24221445

Glad someone has understood the purpose of this thread: it doesn't matter what I or you think about the color grading - if the BD has the right one, or the DVD, or neither... the point is to find out IF the BD version has a different color grading from DVD, or from another source (HD-DVD, HDTV, laserdisc etc.).

Doesn't seem to be the way you're framing this discussion in the original post, which has a bit too much baseless editorializing for my taste.

"Wait for a new edition with the right color grading - it happens... sometimes!"

Right according to what?

Unfortunately, I've resigned myself to the fact that trying to fight the tide of internet misinformation on this topic is hopeless.

42041 · Jan 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.laserdisc.ws /t/1512245/blu-ray-with-different-color-grading#post_24219073

(link to a couple blog entries - Into the Abyss - Not on Blu-Ray )

These blogs are everything that's wrong with the internet as a vessel for collective human knowledge... is that second guy seriously suggesting the open-matte Alliance blu-ray of Se7en is more "correct" than the WB release? Amazing how people have the gall to posit themselves as authorities on things they're so blindingly ignorant about.

Steeb · Jan 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 /t/1512245/blu-ray-with-different-color-grading#post_24222563

Doesn't seem to be the way you're framing this discussion in the original post, which has a bit too much baseless editorializing for my taste.

"Wait for a new edition with the right color grading - it happens... sometimes!"

Right according to what?

Unfortunately, I've resigned myself to the fact that trying to fight the tide of internet misinformation on this topic is hopeless.

That, and his use of the words "problem," "solution," and "resolved."

As in, "And, most important, is there a solution?" and "movie title - type of color grading problem, if known - resolution notes" etc, etc.

Clearly, disclaimer notwithstanding, the implication is that any change should be considered a problem in need of a solution.

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 17, 2014

OK, clearly I was "a bit" leaned toward the fact the BDs in the list have *wrong* color grading... and with wrong, maybe I should have written "wrong to me (and many others)"...

It's hard to tell - if not impossible - "which is which" right or wrong in absolute terms... I mean, let's say that a movie states "THIS has the RIGHT color grading..." blah blah blah "... approved by DOP..."

Now, is the color grading of the BD title right, because it was the same as shown in the theaters in the days of release, or it is right because the DOP wanted it to look like it, but it was not possible to achieve that result at that time?

Halloween;

Quote:
Halloween has been fully restored under the supervision of Lucasfilm’s THX Digital Mastering Services. The video was transferred by the award-winning colorist Adam Adams (Terminator 2, Titanic) from a new 35mm interpositive (mode from the original camera negative) and approved by the film’s cinematographer Dean Cundey

http://www.dvdmg.com/halloween.shtml (about 1999 THX DVD)

Quote:
Trancas International Films, Compass International Pictures, and Halloweenmovies.com are proud to announce award winning cinematographer Dean Cundey is supervising the new high definition transfer of John Carpenter’s Halloween for the upcoming 35th Anniversary Blu-ray!

http://halloweenmovies.com/2013/06/11/dean-cundey-to-supervise-35th-ann-blu-ray-transfer (about 35th Anniversary BD)

Which version is right? Which is wrong? "A picture is worth a thousand words"...

top 35th Ann. BD, bottom BD with 1999 THX DVD color grading:

...to me, the right version is at bottom, as trees in fall season should have these colors; yes, the top is good, and has natural colors, but doesn't serve the mood of the movie...

screenshot comparisons

Minority report

Quote:
For Minority Report, Spielberg once again allocated the skills of Janusz Kaminski, a rather ingenious Cinematographer who knows how to put DVD’s capabilities to the test. Minority Report is not a very colorful film, and is in fact quite the opposite. The look is hard, drab and cold.

...

I would say that grain is a problem, but the grain visible is obviously a product of the bleach-bypass process used to achieve the film’s amazing look.

http://www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/minority-report2.html (about DVD)

Quote:
Kaminski's most interesting trick, however, was to desaturate and mute the film's colors by employing a "bleach bypass" system. Normally in negative processing, the film emulsion is bleached. By skipping this step, the film ends up looking like a simultaneous color and black-and-white image, resulting in increased grain and contrast. Kaminski said, "The process pulled about 40 percent of the color out of the image, but we worked to get that back in by adding more color to the lights. Overall, the image has a bleached-out quality with deep shadows and blown highlights."

http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article.html?isPreview=&id=650696|648300&name=Minority-Report (about DVD)

Quote:
The grading process began with Levinson matching an answer print. The answer print consisted of individual reels that Steven Spielberg had selected as best representing how he wanted the movie to be seen. At that point, Janusz Kaminski came in to work with Levinson. The grading was done while viewing the 4K files rather than a lower resolution proxy.

Steven Spielberg was also closely involved in the remastering and the resulting HDCAM-SR master represents how the creative team want the movie to be seen by viewers today.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=4078 (about BD)

top BD, bottom BD with DVD color grading:

C'mon, let's face it: if the Roaring Twenties were in black&white, 2054 SHOULD be cold&blue...

screenshot comparisons

The Matrix:

Quote:
The Matrix's production designer, Owen Paterson, used methods to distinguish the "real world" and the Matrix in a pervasive way. The production design team generally placed a bias towards the Matrix code's distinctive green color in scenes set within the simulation, whereas there is an emphasis on the color blue during scenes set in the "real world".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_matrix

top BD, bottom BD with DVD color grading:

... I don't think Neo was supposed to be the next Twilight superstar!

screenshot comparisons

Escape from New York:

top US BD, bottom HDTV:

Should the flame have this color in the top image?

screenshot comparisons

The Thing:

top HD-DVD (same color grading as BD, but with less DNR and more grain intact, bottom HD-DVD with LD color grading:

Do you love pink snow? I do not.

screenshot comparison one two

Now, pick your poison...

42041 · Jan 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.laserdisc.ws /t/1512245/blu-ray-with-different-color-grading#post_24224012

Do you love pink snow? I do not.

Completely irrelevant to whether a transfer's color is good or not. If the snow in The Thing happened to be hot pink in the answer prints Carpenter/his DP approved, then that's how it should look. Any value judgement past that is yours alone. A film does not owe you snow of any color. Film has natural color biases depending on the color temperature of the light, filters in front of the lens, films are color timed in post, they are lit with colored lights, they can be purposefully made to look unnatural for any number of reasons. That is, of course, ignoring the monumental foolishness of judging color from screenshot comparisons, which is foolish for many reasons not the least of which being that your eyes automatically white-balance.

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 17, 2014

So, following your reasoning, automatically a BD color grading is right, and all the past DVD, LD, VHS, TV etc. were wrong?

I mean, if it's the director's or DOP's choice, we must had "The Thing" with pink (and blue) snow from 1982 until now, right?

Is it not possible, *plausible*, that "The Thing" BD color grading could be wrong - for whatever reason - and not the director's choice?

The eyes automatically white-balance after few minutes, so screenshots could be useful for comparing colors - apart that, I have all those movies, I know them quite well, and even before I discovered that BD color grading was different from the DVD (LD) version, I felt colors were wrong, without direct comparison, but only by memory.

Now, it could be possible (even if I think it's difficult) that John Carpenter decided, suddenly, after 30 years from release, that snow at South Pole should be pinkish, or blueish, or whatever other color but white, but I have the right, as customer who paid for a product, to decide if I like it "as is", or if I want to improve it... there are million people happy with their 2006 DVD or 2011 BD, but this doesn't mean those versions are the "right" one, do you agree?

I'm so tired to be "forced" to buy the same product, format after format (VHS, LD, DVD, BD) to discover that often the latest format is perfect for an aspect, bad for another... history repeats itself, as it was the same from VHS to LD, and from LD to DVD, so it's not a strict BD format; I'm sure it will be present even in the next format, whatever it will be physical or not!

Apart everything else, if you read well my post, I wrote only

Quote:
Do you love pink snow? I do not.

- that's all, folks!

nathanddrews · Jan 17, 2014

This thread is doomed. REBOOT

1. Remove the poll

2. Remove any talk of subjectivity, judgments, or opinions

3. Require images taken from the same equipment without enhancements

4. Require some sort of objective data (white point?)

5. Don't feed the trolls

It would be very nice to have one location where the color grading of each available release could be compared objectively so that viewers could subjectively decide which version(s) to buy. Beyond that, it stops being a service. My $0.02.

Johnny Vertigo · Jan 17, 2014

EVERY movie based on a new master (or, being more specific, new scan) will have a different color grading than old DVD or previous Blu-ray based also on old, done for DVD master.

What's the point of this thread?

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanddrews /t/1512245/blu-ray-with-different-color-grading/0_100#post_24224765

This thread is doomed. REBOOT

1. Remove the poll

2. Remove any talk of subjectivity, judgments, or opinions

3. Require images taken from the same equipment without enhancements

4. Require some sort of objective data (white point?)

5. Don't feed the trolls

It would be very nice to have one location where the color grading of each available release could be compared objectively so that viewers could subjectively decide which version(s) to buy. Beyond that, it stops being a service. My $0.02.

1. done.

2. who can state as a fact that this (or that) version, has the proper color grading? The director? The DOP? The studio? But if they claim each edition has the right color grading, how could it be treated as not subjective?!?

3. I posted the screenshots I had, but they are not so far from independent screenshot comparisons... just follow the links.

4. Can you make some example?

5. They need to eat, too...

42041 · Jan 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.laserdisc.ws /t/1512245/blu-ray-with-different-color-grading#post_24224697

So, following your reasoning, automatically a BD color grading is right,

Not sure how that follows.

Following my reasoning, you shouldn't assume the color to be "wrong" when you've really got no evidence beyond your aesthetic preferences. Of course, this is with the assumption that "right" is the color of the filmmaker-approved answer print that represents the finished film.

Or is not conflating objective fact and speculation an unreasonable standard to hold internet discussions to? If I'm a troll because I'm suggesting that, yikes

Quote:
and all the past DVD, LD, VHS, TV etc. were wrong?

If you compare enough theatrical prints to old video transfers, you quickly find that is not an unreasonable assumption at all.

Quote:
...but I have the right, as customer who paid for a product, to decide if I like it "as is", or if I want to improve it... there are million people happy with their 2006 DVD or 2011 BD, but this doesn't mean those versions are the "right" one, do you agree?

Sure, your preferences, your call. But again, that has nothing to do with what is objectively right or wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.laserdisc.ws /t/1512245/blu-ray-with-different-color-grading#post_24225067

2. who can state as a fact that this (or that) version, has the proper color grading?

Do we need to?

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 17, 2014

Well, if we state that a RIGHT color grading is the one the director OR DOP choose, which is the right color grading of Halloween, for example?

If the words "approved" and "supervising" are only marketing lingo, then neither one (1999 THX DVD and 35th Ann. BD) should be trusted; if, instead, each one means, in this context, "THIS version has the RIGHT color grading", then neither one should be trusted too!!!

Or... maybe they are both right... how? Simple, they used as reference two different prints, or one print and the negative...

The point is: no one could tell which version is right or wrong, until John Carpenter will take a plane, come to my home, sit with me watching (The Thing/Halloween/Escape from New York) and say "this (BD/DVD/LD/VHS/whatever) has the (right/wrong) color grading"... and I hope he will take his glasses with him!

So, I have no proof one version has the right, or wrong, color grading, as anyone else.

But, at the end, it will be better to rewrite the first post, to find out what is the general consensus about each color grading... will it be ok?

Never called you a troll, by the way!

Phantom Stranger · Jan 17, 2014

I think it is worthwhile to note the Blu-rays with substantially different color correction from prior home editions. That eliminates the subjective evaluations that some seem to loathe and seems perfectly achievable. Where we might run into problems are the more subtle changes. Many, if not most, newer transfers have different color grading schemes applied on a scene-by-scene basis.

wuther · Jan 18, 2014

The number of BD vs DVD with different color grading is legion. A shorter list would BDs of the same film that have quite different grading some of which are listed here like LOTR, Titanic, Halloween, Terminator, etc.

One not listed is Blade Runner Final Cut which has very different color grading then the other BR cuts. As for Halloween THX that has been debated to death and there is plenty to point that the film never looked like that except for that one DVD, for one thing it was filmed in California in the spring.

As for why some BDs have questionable color grading it has more to do with the trend of the month when it was made more then anything else, but you can always count on the apologists claiming the most recent version is correct because it is the most recent version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanddrews /t/1512245/blu-ray-with-different-color-grading#post_24220758

As long as people can agree to stick to that, it shouldn't become a troll-zone.

Wishful thinking to say the least.

Stinky-Dinkins · Jan 18, 2014

For Braveheart, it's worth noting that the BD color grading is very different than the DVD but it is right in line with the theatrical presentation (and the original Laserdisc release.) When the DVD came out they sapped much of the color saturation from it, and gave it a "Saving Private Ryan" sort of appearance. Even the earliest reviews of the DVD version commented on this shift, it was that noticeable at the time.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Digital Bits

And gone is the wonderful subtlety in shading that the laserdisc transfer exhibits. Also gone is the rich color pallet. The color timing on the DVD transfer appears colder and more harsh looking, with more muted color than the laserdisc version. You'll notice this right from the opening shots of the Scottish highlands, which appear greener and more lush on LD. I can't really say that this disc doesn't look good, because it does. But I was struck by the differences between the two transfers. It may boil down to a personal preference. If I could have the color timing and clean print of the LD transfer, and the better contrast and crispness of the DVD (along with 16x9, naturally)... well, you get the idea. If you're familiar with the laserdisc, just realize that you MAY be somewhat disappointed.

Everything became so much more muted and lifeless in the DVD release. Blood, clothes, Pictish-style war paint, and even grass almost became different shades of brown.

Couple of examples Here and Here (Mouse-Over to bring up the original DVD screengrab).

www.laserdisc.ws · Jan 28, 2014

There is someone who think that the "perfect" color grading for Robocop should lie between the new 4K remaster and the old one; so, here you are some examples - top old, middle mix, bottom new:

what are your opinions?

wuther · Jan 29, 2014

The Robocop grading is all over the place, sometimes brighter then the previous BD sometimes not. At least it is not a trendy color scheme.

Blu-ray with different color grading

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