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Renting i1Pro or i1Pro2 or ColorMunki Spectros?

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
I get a bit confused with the naming and renting services offered. I see that SpecrtaCal offers a 14-day rental of i1Pro for $199, but the description shows i1Pro2 - http://store.spectracal.com/i1pro-calibration-rental-kit.html so which one is it - i1Pro or i1Pro2?

Then there is the ColorMunki Photo Spectrometer - http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/calibration/colormunki for much less. Can it be used to profile i1Display Pro on a display? Or only printer/paper?

Is i1Pro spectro less accurate than i1Pro2? By how much?

I am trying to find the best place to rent a spectrometer to profile my i1Display Pro/i1D3, but I just need one single day and I already own CalMAN Enthusiast and pattern discs, so the $199 offer for 2 weeks is just overkill in my case.

I didn't see anyone offering i1Pro or i1Pro2 rental in classifieds, so I wonder if anyone here knows???
post #2 of 43
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1215746/colormunki-how-good-or-how-bad#post_17899271
post #3 of 43
Thread Starter 
Thanks, but that thread is so old that its hard to figure out if its worth renting the ColorMunki spectro if you own an i1Display Pro/i1D3. Most of the comparison in that thread was about i1Display, i1Display 2, Chroma 5, etc. i1D3 is a more accurate device, but I know for a fact that it cannot read my LED monitor properly - grayscale ends up purple. I downloaded an i1Pro spectro correction matrix for the exact monitor and now grayscale is actually gray. I am pretty sure that CCFL LCDs also need a correction matrix for my device as grayscale seems to have a blue tone/tint to it...
post #4 of 43
I did rent I1Pro Rev D spectros (I believe I was the first to do so, at least round here). In the end I had 4 dedicated in the rental pool and many times there was a waiting list .. Some of rental clients even went out and purchased their own i1Pro and started a rental service, there are probably others still doing so.

Minimum was 14 days starting at $125, options for 21 and 30 day periods. This was before the i1D3 and since then, used i1Pro Spectros go for between $250 - $450. I sold all my rental i1Pro's over a year and half ago.

That $49 rate (+$20) for the ColorMunki is good, probably the lowest I have seen. It should work well to profile your i1D3.

However, I would encourage you to purchase a used i1Pro Rev D, everyone serious about this should own a spectro IMO - Buy one and you rent it biggrin.gif

That information still applies to the i1D3.


Might as well add my normal text:

Why a Spectro, see why here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373556/i1-pro-or-d3-if-you-could-only-have-one-meter

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

And Read these Threads:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449310/eye-one-pro-or-display-3-pro

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1464411/what-would-you-rather-have-for-display-calibration
Edited by turbe - 1/19/14 at 2:46pm
post #5 of 43
Thread Starter 
I do not know how accurate i1Pro is comparing to i1Pro2 when it comes down to a rather accurate device like i1D3. By rather accurate, I mean barely acceptable as it can be off by any dE between 2 and 9...

I just want to create a correction matrix for my i1D3 with the most accurate device I could rent for the lowest fee as I only need it for one day! I do not know anyone who is into calibration around here and do not think I could make any money off providing rent - someone is likely to just steal it anyway.
post #6 of 43
you should read the links turbe provided - they'll explain the difference between a colorimeter and a spectroradiometer and answer your question.
post #7 of 43
I've had good success calibrating multiple TV's with my Colormunki Photo which I purchased brand new off of Amazon. I have read a few posts by those that have compared it to an i1Pro spectro and the results were very close so both spectro's are good to use. The i1Pro2 being newer should generally speaking be more accurate than say a used/old i1pro.
post #8 of 43
^^

The only difference for emissive measuring between the i1 Pro rev D and the i1 Pro 2 is that the Pro 2 can read up to 1200 cd/m^2 while the i1 Pro can only read to 300 cd/m^2 and the Pro 2 is less sensitive to drift caused by temperature.

There is no difference in accuracy.

Larry
post #9 of 43
Thread Starter 
Sweet! Anyone got i1Pro/ColorMunki Photo for cheap rent? biggrin.gif
post #10 of 43
Not sure how much cheaper then this you can get?
http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/calibration/colormunki

RayJr
post #11 of 43
Thread Starter 
Yes, I posted that link first...

Last time someone linked me to $199 SpectraCal rent and thought I was nuts to call that price overkill. Looking for things can get you quite far. Just because LensRentals has it cheap, doesn't mean nobody else has it cheaper or has i1Pro or even i1Pro2 for rent for the same price!
post #12 of 43
Thread Starter 
Why in the world so many people get colorimeters instead of spectrometers? Accuracy is the whole point of calibration and if colorimeters cannot provide that then they are not the right devices for calibration. I guess having a profiled colorimeter makes it more accurate, but aren't you supposed to profile your colorimeter for each screen you have to calibrate??? If so, then it further makes no sense to buy colorimeters.... even if they measure faster than spectrometers.
post #13 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Why in the world so many people get colorimeters instead of spectrometers? Accuracy is the whole point of calibration and if colorimeters cannot provide that then they are not the right devices for calibration. I guess having a profiled colorimeter makes it more accurate, but aren't you supposed to profile your colorimeter for each screen you have to calibrate??? If so, then it further makes no sense to buy colorimeters.... even if they measure faster than spectrometers.

Renting a spectro should work for you...unless you are doing this on a pro level.. were you will be measuring a lot of different display.
Most enthusiast only have a few displays in there home...so renting the unit for a week should work fine..to profile there displays.

Just my $.02
RayJr
post #14 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Why in the world so many people get colorimeters instead of spectrometers? Accuracy is the whole point of calibration and if colorimeters cannot provide that then they are not the right devices for calibration. I guess having a profiled colorimeter makes it more accurate, but aren't you supposed to profile your colorimeter for each screen you have to calibrate??? If so, then it further makes no sense to buy colorimeters.... even if they measure faster than spectrometers.

These questions have clear answers and are discussed in the links that Turbe provided. You should take the time to read them.
post #15 of 43
Thread Starter 
I was looking into i1Pro Rev D. and I saw "UV cut" with some. What is that?

If spectrometers cannot read low light accurately, then how can they be used to calibrate the entire gray scale? I realize that is what colorimeter profiling is for, but those who said they would go for i1Pro if they were forced to use a single device - how would you go about calibrating dark grays (blacks can be done with eyes I guess)???
post #16 of 43
Because the i1pro was better all round than any older tristimulas meters, despite the issues at low light levels.
Notwithstanding the K10A, the i1D3/C6 changed the calibration game for a solid cost effective tristimulas meter, but even the K10A can be corrected by an equal level spectro.

The i1pro has been a solid work horse for many pros for years, their accuracy isn't far behind the $10000 spectro's, even at low light levels. You have to understand your tools and make allowances for the limitations, so keep in mind, a pro and advanced DIY user can make judgements even though there maybe be error in a set of readings, this is the black art bit. This bit might be lost when everything goes auto.

Now though many pros and DIY'ers use a combo of spectro and tristimulas meter to take advantage of the best aspects of each design.
post #17 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

I was looking into i1Pro Rev D. and I saw "UV cut" with some. What is that?

If spectrometers cannot read low light accurately, then how can they be used to calibrate the entire gray scale? I realize that is what colorimeter profiling is for, but those who said they would go for i1Pro if they were forced to use a single device - how would you go about calibrating dark grays (blacks can be done with eyes I guess)???

I own two i1Pros and a i1Pro2. Both versions have difficulties reading 20% and lower, as well as, the notable time for reading dark levels. As you already know a colorimeter is best for such levels. If the choice of one over another were forced upon me, I too would choose the i1Pro. I use both a spectro and a colorimeter for calibrations as the speed on the grayscale is worth it. Micheal Chen did an excellent article on showing how accurate a colorimeter can be when profiled; check out his website. As for doing calibrations by eye alone; I do not recommend it . If you want to set up the black levels by eye alone read this article http://www.tlvexp.ca/2011/12/setting-black-level-for-your-cablesatellite-box/.

From my experience, a profiled colorimeter will get you down to the 10% level. The question is "How much do you want to spend?". I know of one individual who bought a $30000.00 spectrophotometer. When you consider that an investment of less than $1500.00 for equipment will read from 10% to over 100%, the cost of being able to accurately read 0% using $30000.00 equipment is astronomical. Experience and knowledge is the greatest assets a calibrator owns, the equipment comes in second every time. Anyone can go out and buy the very best but if you really don't know how to take advantage of the equipment, they are no better than an amateur playing around. Also keep in mind the DeltaE factor. There is a point where the human eye will not see any difference. The fact that a piece of electronic equipment can detect minute differences is fine but will a client's eye be able to?

I understand the motives for your questions and they are worth asking. When it comes to equipment it will come down to economics. Ask around. Personally, I think SpectraCal's enhanced i1Pro2 is an excellent choice for a spectro and I would go for the i1 Display 3 or the C6 for a colorimeter. This opinion is for the moment, as we all know, newer and better equipment is always coming out.

I hope this helps.
Edited by randal_r - 1/29/14 at 6:47am
post #18 of 43
" The man makes the tools...The tools don't make the man"

Just my $.02
RayJr
post #19 of 43
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the info guys... So, back to my original question - if you only had i1Pro and had to calibrate all of grayscale - how would you do it if under 20% it wasn't good? Nobody specifically explains what is meant by being "good" ? Does it stay accurate but simply takes a long time to read? Or does it actually become less accurate? 10-20% is a very important range and its not like blacks which are not likely to be noticed if there is some error in them. I can make a judgement too - I have very large pupils (not due to drugs) and 20/15 vision. When I calibrated my LED monitor with i1D3 - I knew immediately that it needed profiling because grays were not neutral. Then I downloaded a correction file for that screen made with i1Pro and re-calibrated it - grayscale looked very neutral!. But again, regardless of times it takes, is it actually possible to calibrate grayscale properly all the way down to at least 5-10% using ONLY i1Pro? Or would it provide accurate readings for 100-20%, making you guess if 10-20% is accurate? I could care less how long it takes.
post #20 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post

" The man makes the tools...The tools don't make the man"

...said Bubba proudly as he finalized his calibration of a 2014 LED TV with his un-profiled but trusty Spyder1 colorimeter without any correction files biggrin.gif.
post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Thanks for all the info guys... So, back to my original question - if you only had i1Pro and had to calibrate all of grayscale - how would you do it if under 20% it wasn't good? Nobody specifically explains what is meant by being "good" ? Does it stay accurate but simply takes a long time to read? Or does it actually become less accurate? 10-20% is a very important range and its not like blacks which are not likely to be noticed if there is some error in them. I can make a judgement too - I have very large pupils (not due to drugs) and 20/15 vision. When I calibrated my LED monitor with i1D3 - I knew immediately that it needed profiling because grays were not neutral. Then I downloaded a correction file for that screen made with i1Pro and re-calibrated it - grayscale looked very neutral!. But again, regardless of times it takes, is it actually possible to calibrate grayscale properly all the way down to at least 5-10% using ONLY i1Pro? Or would it provide accurate readings for 100-20%, making you guess if 10-20% is accurate? I could care less how long it takes.
in low light level under 10cd/m2 the i1 pro is less acurate, but the solution is to profile the display 3 with a spectro to do the full calibration (greyscale/gamma/cms)

Calibrate with a profiled colorimeter you have best of both world : the acuracy of the spectro with the speed and acuracy at low light level of the colorimeter (0,003cd/m2) wink.gif
post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

...said Bubba proudly as he finalized his calibration of a 2014 LED TV with his un-profiled but trusty Spyder1 colorimeter without any correction files biggrin.gif.

Ok Bubba...you keep going. rolleyes.gif
post #23 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Thanks for all the info guys... So, back to my original question - if you only had i1Pro and had to calibrate all of grayscale - how would you do it if under 20% it wasn't good? Nobody specifically explains what is meant by being "good" ? Does it stay accurate but simply takes a long time to read? Or does it actually become less accurate? 10-20% is a very important range and its not like blacks which are not likely to be noticed if there is some error in them. I can make a judgement too - I have very large pupils (not due to drugs) and 20/15 vision. When I calibrated my LED monitor with i1D3 - I knew immediately that it needed profiling because grays were not neutral. Then I downloaded a correction file for that screen made with i1Pro and re-calibrated it - grayscale looked very neutral!. But again, regardless of times it takes, is it actually possible to calibrate grayscale properly all the way down to at least 5-10% using ONLY i1Pro? Or would it provide accurate readings for 100-20%, making you guess if 10-20% is accurate? I could care less how long it takes.

These are not easy questions to answer in a quick phrase. First one must assume that you are calibrating a 10 point or a 20 points grayscale if you are going to be adjusting the display at these levels. If you are doing a 2 point or a 1 point calibration then the question does not apply. The 2 point method is to adjust the 30% / 80% levels while other displays suggest 30% / 100%. With this method 20% percent and below you really don't have much control. I have taken the liberty to look up the manual for the LCD display that you have. This is a 2 point white balance system.

I feel that every question deserves a fair answer and I am limited by my experience and knowledge; so here we go.

"if you only had i1Pro and had to calibrate all of grayscale - how would you do it if under 20% it wasn't good? "

As aforementioned, this is a 10 or 20 point grayscale calibration. One would adjust these levels the best they could but also one would look for discolouration out of the norm; such as the black having a Green tint to it. One would look at the DeltaE and to see where it is on the scale and adjust accordingly. According to some experts, the human eye can distinguish discrepancies better at 30% & above then at 0% - 20%.

The signal noise issues at dark levels causes the spectrometers to become less accurate hence the reason for the long read time and since a colorimeter is not effected in the same way one can see as to why a dual system is desirable. As for downloading a correction file this is like taking another person's prescription; it wasn't meant for you.

I am more than willing to try and answer your questions but there are many out there who would question your understanding of the foundation video calibration. Like all of us, we are in a constant state of learning. I don' know if you have taken any formal training like IFS or THX classes and I know to some they are expensive. May I suggest you look into Michael Chen's Video Tutorials, they are economical and informative. As for now I will strive to answer any question I can.

Good luck.
post #24 of 43
What exactly is the process for calibrating a colorimeter with a spectro? At what colors/levels/etc?
post #25 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by centex99 View Post

What exactly is the process for calibrating a colorimeter with a spectro? At what colors/levels/etc?

It goes through a set of RGBW readings with both the reference and target meters and then calculates a correction matrix. CalMAN does this in an automated way and defaults to 100% stimulus, but it can be done at any stimulus level.
post #26 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by randal_r View Post

These are not easy questions to answer in a quick phrase. First one must assume that you are calibrating a 10 point or a 20 points grayscale if you are going to be adjusting the display at these levels. If you are doing a 2 point or a 1 point calibration then the question does not apply. The 2 point method is to adjust the 30% / 80% levels while other displays suggest 30% / 100%. With this method 20% percent and below you really don't have much control. I have taken the liberty to look up the manual for the LCD display that you have. This is a 2 point white balance system.

I feel that every question deserves a fair answer and I am limited by my experience and knowledge; so here we go.

"if you only had i1Pro and had to calibrate all of grayscale - how would you do it if under 20% it wasn't good? "

As aforementioned, this is a 10 or 20 point grayscale calibration. One would adjust these levels the best they could but also one would look for discolouration out of the norm; such as the black having a Green tint to it. One would look at the DeltaE and to see where it is on the scale and adjust accordingly. According to some experts, the human eye can distinguish discrepancies better at 30% & above then at 0% - 20%.

The signal noise issues at dark levels causes the spectrometers to become less accurate hence the reason for the long read time and since a colorimeter is not effected in the same way one can see as to why a dual system is desirable. As for downloading a correction file this is like taking another person's prescription; it wasn't meant for you.

I am more than willing to try and answer your questions but there are many out there who would question your understanding of the foundation video calibration. Like all of us, we are in a constant state of learning. I don' know if you have taken any formal training like IFS or THX classes and I know to some they are expensive. May I suggest you look into Michael Chen's Video Tutorials, they are economical and informative. As for now I will strive to answer any question I can.

Good luck.

Er.... doing only 30% and 80/100% is not the way to go. I have an LCD with a 2pt controls and if I were only trying to get 30% right and 80/100% right - a whole lot of grayscale would be inaccurate. You need to do at least a 10pt read and get all 10pts as accurate as possible. Most movie content uses 5-35% so if you have to prioritize - that would be the range to prioritize. If you followed my posts and calibration results you would know that I do know what I am doing. What I do not know - I ask. I do not know much about spectrometers other than they are considered more accurate, but now it seems its no longer the case! First I asked about them - I got a whole lot of replies with links that show that Pros would go for a spectrometer for being more accurate OVER i1D3 colorimeter and now different people say "i1D3 changed the game - use that instead". It is a matter of opinion then.

I keep on asking people "if you had only ONE device" and half the answers are "you need more than one device if you want to get it right!" - I know and I also stated that I know, but that was not the question! So a whole bunch of pros would go for i1Pro instead of i1D3 and would use their eyes to calibrate 20%-10%? That would only help if the discoloration is obvious, but if you want to have a truly accurate calibration then i1Pro alone in some cases would be worse than i1D3 and vice versa. So, you couldn't really say which one to use unless you knew just how accurate i1D3 was on a specific screen.

OK, another question - HOW inaccurate is i1Pro 5-20%? Any i1D3 probe can be off by dE 2-9. If i1Pro is less accurate at 5-20% than at 20-100%, but still manages to be more accurate than i1D3 at 5-20% then it does make more sense to have just i1Pro as the only device. In MY experience - i1D3 is very accurate on CCFL screens and seems to be accurate on plasma screen, but is NOT accurate on LED screens.

I do know that each display needs its own calibration and profiling, but in case with many monitors - variances between the same exact model are not as high as with TVs. I downloaded profiles which I verified with my colorimeter and they were very close to being accurate. The downloaded correction file provided me a far better result and its obvious because the result is neutral and not purple!
Edited by MonarchX - 1/29/14 at 11:40am
post #27 of 43
@MonarchX

I know that for my last TV (a Toshiba LCD CCFL) I was using an i1D3 OEM and a C6 and getting excellent PQ and charts from CP and CM.
However there was that nagging doubt at the back of my mind regarding the ability of my TV to conform to its type. As you say it varies not only by type but also by individual display..
Eventually I bought a spectro (a colormunki photo) and checked it out.
Sure enough my display was behaving almost exactly as it was expected to do. In fact both Joel and Tom reassured me that this would be the case but what if.....

My new TV (an Edge Lit LED LCD) has also been profiled with similar results.

For me, to buy a spectro was a waste of money, but what if.....

Regarding which to buy, I do not know. Maybe you do?
post #28 of 43
First, don't bite the hand that trying to help you.

The fact that your statement about 2 point white balance displays and "a whole lot of grayscale would be inccurate" conveys volumes.

Understanding the mechanics and functions of spectrometers vs. colorimeters, as well as, their strengths and weaknesses is not an opinion, it is a science.

Asking people "if you had only ONE device" is seeking an opinion; you get what you asked for.

My final point is that I have reviewed your past postings and it is obvious that your knowledge of video calibrations is limited but I felt that lending a helping hand was in order. The only thing that you have brought to mind is one of Murrphy's laws, "No good turn goes unpunished". I am more than willing to extend help to you but not at the price of belligerence.
Edited by randal_r - 1/29/14 at 12:08pm
post #29 of 43
So the correction matrix is only correcting the color and not the luminance readings I take it? If that's the case, you only have to calibrate at a given output (say 75%) Are these corrections valid for any luminance or is there variations across different level outputs?
Generally speaking a spec. will stay within tolerance for longer, so by doing this, I assume you don't have to send the colorimeter in to get calibrated and you'd just make these adjustments before doing any calibration and do the correction on every type of set as they can make a difference as well.
post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by centex99 View Post

So the correction matrix is only correcting the color and not the luminance readings I take it? If that's the case, you only have to calibrate at a given output (say 75%) Are these corrections valid for any luminance or is there variations across different level outputs?

It does correct for luminance, but it does not correct for linearity.

The assumption is that the colorimeter is more linear than the spectro, so that is a trait you'd want to preserve in the target meter as oppose to override. If the spectro was better in every aspect, then you'd just use that meter.
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