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Audyssey Receiver/Preamp advice

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Looking for a receiver/pre-amp with Audyssey XT32 to be used as pre-amp.

I have the Denon X4000, Onkyo NR-1010, Onkyo NR-818 in mind.

My current setup is a 5.1 and have plans to make it a 5.2 in the next year. I read in the Audyssey website that all XT32 units support Sub EQ HT so having .2 would be good.

Are there any other units that can serve as a Audyssey box?
Edited by silverdream - 1/21/14 at 1:26pm
post #2 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdream View Post

Looking for a receiver/pre-amp with Audyssey XT32 to be used as pre-amp.

I have the Denon X4000, Onkyo NR-1010, Onkyo NR-818 in mind.

My current setup is a 5.1 and have plans to make it a 5.2 in the next year. I read in the Audyssey website that all XT32 units support Sub EQ HT so having .2 would be good.

Are there any other units that can serve as a Audyssey box?

If memory serves the NR 818 might be struck from the list on the grounds that its subwoofer support is missing some features that are present in the other XT32 implementations.
post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If memory serves the NR 818 might be struck from the list on the grounds that its subwoofer support is missing some features that are present in the other XT32 implementations.

You are right. 818 has XT32 but not Sub EQ HT.

Source: https://audyssey.zendesk.com/forums/64676/entries/20953442.html

That't too bad since the 818 was a lot cheaper than the other 2. Wondering now if Sub EQ HT that good?
post #4 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdream View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If memory serves the NR 818 might be struck from the list on the grounds that its subwoofer support is missing some features that are present in the other XT32 implementations.

You are right. 818 has XT32 but not Sub EQ HT.

Source: https://audyssey.zendesk.com/forums/64676/entries/20953442.html

That't too bad since the 818 was a lot cheaper than the other 2. Wondering now if Sub EQ HT that good?

 

SubEQ HT is an Audyssey technology that allows for the independent level and distance (delay) setting of dual subs. Once levels and delays have been set for each sub, Audyssey then EQs the two subs as one, taking account of their mutual interaction in the room.

 

So... if you only have one sub, SubEQ HT is not relevant.

 

If you have two subs and they are identical and equidistant from the MLP, then you don't actually need SubEQ HT because the levels and delays will be the same for both subs and you can happily let Audyssey EQ the pair as one.

 

If you have two subs which are not functionally identical and are at different distances from the MLP, this is where SubEQ HT becomes useful.  But, people were setting up dual subs way before Audyssey came along, so there are other options open to you. SubEQ HT just automates the process.  

 

The Denon X4000 can probably be found, with a little negotiation, for not much more than $1,000 and (speaking as an Onkyo guy myself) I would go for the X4000 if you can run to it. If you contact jdsmoothie at AVS sales, I am sure he will cut you a great deal on either unit.

post #5 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

SubEQ HT is an Audyssey technology that allows for the independent level and distance (delay) setting of dual subs. Once levels and delays have been set for each sub, Audyssey then EQs the two subs as one, taking account of their mutual interaction in the room.

So... if you only have one sub, SubEQ HT is not relevant.

If you have two subs and they are identical and equidistant from the MLP, then you don't actually need SubEQ HT because the levels and delays will be the same for both subs and you can happily let Audyssey EQ the pair as one.

If you have two subs which are not functionally identical and are at different distances from the MLP, this is where SubEQ HT becomes useful.  But, people were setting up dual subs way before Audyssey came along, so there are other options open to you. SubEQ HT just automates the process.  

The Denon X4000 can probably be found, with a little negotiation, for not much more than $1,000 and (speaking as an Onkyo guy myself) I would go for the X4000 if you can run to it. If you contact jdsmoothie at AVS sales, I am sure he will cut you a great deal on either unit.

Curious, what's the reason to recommend X4000 over the NR-818 which is a few hundred $ cheaper and NR-1010 which is retailing at almost the same as the X4000?
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdream View Post

Curious, what's the reason to recommend X4000 over the NR-818 which is a few hundred $ cheaper and NR-1010 which is retailing at almost the same as the X4000?

I'm no expert on this, but what I've read about Onkyo bad HDMI board from last couple of years or more is preventing some of the consumers to again go with Onkyo.
post #7 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If you have two subs and they are identical and equidistant from the MLP, then you don't actually need SubEQ HT because the levels and delays will be the same for both subs

They won't necessarily be the same since the subs may not interact with the room in the same manner. Only if the room were perfectly symmetrical with respect to the primary listening position and sub placement, then your statement would be correct.
post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If you have two subs and they are identical and equidistant from the MLP, then you don't actually need SubEQ HT because the levels and delays will be the same for both subs

They won't necessarily be the same since the subs may not interact with the room in the same manner. Only if the room were perfectly symmetrical with respect to the primary listening position and sub placement, then your statement would be correct.

 

That is theoretically true. But if they are equidistant from the MLP it's hard to see how the distances will be different, and I am struggling a little to envisage a room where, if the subs are equidistant, they will also be subject, usually, to different room influences. But yes, it is certainly possible.

post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverdream View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

SubEQ HT is an Audyssey technology that allows for the independent level and distance (delay) setting of dual subs. Once levels and delays have been set for each sub, Audyssey then EQs the two subs as one, taking account of their mutual interaction in the room.

So... if you only have one sub, SubEQ HT is not relevant.

If you have two subs and they are identical and equidistant from the MLP, then you don't actually need SubEQ HT because the levels and delays will be the same for both subs and you can happily let Audyssey EQ the pair as one.

If you have two subs which are not functionally identical and are at different distances from the MLP, this is where SubEQ HT becomes useful.  But, people were setting up dual subs way before Audyssey came along, so there are other options open to you. SubEQ HT just automates the process.  

The Denon X4000 can probably be found, with a little negotiation, for not much more than $1,000 and (speaking as an Onkyo guy myself) I would go for the X4000 if you can run to it. If you contact jdsmoothie at AVS sales, I am sure he will cut you a great deal on either unit.

Curious, what's the reason to recommend X4000 over the NR-818 which is a few hundred $ cheaper and NR-1010 which is retailing at almost the same as the X4000?

 

Well, they are all pretty good I'd say. But the X4000 has SubEQ HT which the 818 doesn't and also, if this was of interest to anyone (it is to me) the X4000 is Audyssey Pro enabled which means that it is ready for the user who may wish to advance to Audyssey Pro at some stage in the future. I struggle to fully recommend the NR-1010 because it is still subject the Onkyo HMDI board failure issues, AFAIK. There may be other differences that I am unaware of too of course. But that was what shaped my suggestion.

post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Well, they are all pretty good I'd say. But the X4000 has SubEQ HT which the 818 doesn't and also, if this was of interest to anyone (it is to me) the X4000 is Audyssey Pro enabled which means that it is ready for the user who may wish to advance to Audyssey Pro at some stage in the future. I struggle to fully recommend the NR-1010 because it is still subject the Onkyo HMDI board failure issues, AFAIK. There may be other differences that I am unaware of too of course. But that was what shaped my suggestion.

Got it. Thanks for the inputs.
post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is theoretically true. But if they are equidistant from the MLP it's hard to see how the distances will be different, and I am struggling a little to envisage a room where, if the subs are equidistant, they will also be subject, usually, to different room influences. But yes, it is certainly possible.

It's because subwoofer wavelengths are very long and tend to bounce around the room creating nulls and peaks in unpredictable locations. I agree the logical distance should be the same, but the gain most likely wouldn't be if everything isn't symmetrical. Even then, you shouldn't assume anything regarding what audyssey is going to do.
post #12 of 17
Guys

Is Antimode performing the same function as SubEQ HT? I am asking this as some AVR don't have subEQ HT and I have two subs that are identical but placed in different locations.

Thx
post #13 of 17
You CAN assume what Audyssey is going to do to to the sub outs of two similar AVRs with MultiEQ XT32, one having Sub EQ HT and the other not. The two sub outs on each receiver would be manipulated exactly the same except for the individualized timing and volume control on the one with Sub EQ HT. And the last two tweaks can be handled manually with a little effort.

Keith is there a Pro Kit for XT32 or is it still based on XT? Personally I think I would take XT32 over XT with a Pro KIt.
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post

You CAN assume what Audyssey is going to do to to the sub outs of two similar AVRs with MultiEQ XT32, one having Sub EQ HT and the other not. The two sub outs on each receiver would be manipulated exactly the same except for the individualized timing and volume control on the one with Sub EQ HT. And the last two tweaks can be handled manually with a little effort.

Keith is there a Pro Kit for XT32 or is it still based on XT? Personally I think I would take XT32 over XT with a Pro KIt.

Saying what it will do and what settings it will set aren't the same thing. Setting the gain is straight forward, but not setting the distance. Most subs have a phase knob which many think is the same as distance, but it's not the same. It's only use if for integrating a sub with the mains. Not integrating 2 subs. You need to set distance with dsp, not with an analog control. I think you're greatly underestimating the value of having dual sub calibration.
post #15 of 17
The correction curve applied to the two sub outs on AVRs with XT32 will be the same. Beyond that I think you're overthinking the volume/timing tweaks.

Without Sub EQ HT you can run Audyssey with only sub A connected. When your done scroll to the left for volume changes and make note of the sub adjustment. Scroll to the right check the subs distance.

Repeat with sub B. Make note of the volume and distance settings differences.

Reset the sub volumes by splitting (+/-) the differences.

Noting the subs distance differences you can help with movement and phase adjustments.

Rerun Audyssey with both subs on. XT32 is so good with the lower registers you'd be hard pressed to tell the one with Sub EQ HT.

The best multi sub situation is identical subs and similar locations in relation to the MLP. Very dissimilar subs and locations while having you leaning toward Sub EQ HT might be handled better by XT32 with a single sub.

One caveat, I just changed main L/R speakers from Meridian to GoldenEar Triton 7. Previously my distance settings were right on with my Onkyo TX-NR929. I reran Audyssey twice with the 7s and it said 27 feet for the sub when it is actually 14 feet. So even with a single sub I had to manually set the distance this time.

I've taken my second sub out to repair it. I've since made room changes. When and if it returns we'll see what Audyssey says with the new mains and the second sub.
Edited by Patrick Collins - 1/28/14 at 8:48am
post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post

The correction curve applied to the two sub outs on AVRs with XT32 will be the same. Beyond that I think you're overthinking the volume/timing tweaks.

Without Sub EQ HT you can run Audyssey with only sub A connected. When your done scroll to the left for volume changes and make note of the sub adjustment. Scroll to the right check the subs distance.

Repeat with sub B. Make note of the volume and distance settings differences.

Reset the sub volumes by splitting (+/-) the differences.

Noting the subs distance differences you can help with movement and phase adjustments.

Rerun Audyssey with both subs on. XT32 is so good with the lower registers you'd be hard pressed to tell the one with Sub EQ HT.

The best multi sub situation is identical subs and similar locations in relation to the MLP. Very dissimilar subs and locations while having you leaning toward Sub EQ HT might be handled better by XT32 with a single sub.

One caveat, I just changed main L/R speakers from Meridian to GoldenEar Triton 7. Previously my distance settings were right on with my Onkyo TX-NR929. I reran Audyssey twice with the 7s and it said 27 feet for the sub when it is actually 14 feet. So even with a single sub I had to manually set the distance this time.

What you're suggesting may be better than doing nothing, but I don't see how it's a replacement for having a real correct distance setting for each sub channel. Taking an average distance will result in both subs not being aligned with each other in addition to not being aligned with the mains.

If you have two subs, you should not adjust the phase. You should keep it at 0. The reason is phase is used to align at a single frequency. The crossover between the mains and subs. You shouldn't use it to align speakers that play at overlapping frequencies like 2 subs would. The problem with using phase instead of distance is phase will set a different distance at each frequency. It's the way capacitors work in variable phase controls. The higher the frequency, the more current that flows through them.

The reason audyssey set your distance to 27 feet is probably because you had a strong reflection and it's possible that the physical distance was 14 feet, but the logical distance was 27. Since sub wavelengths tend to bounce around a room much more so than shorter wavelengths, this isn't too much of a surprise. You may actually be better off leaving the setting at 27 feet since the logical distance is really what matters. This brings up a valid point in that audyssey adjusts based on logical readings, not physical, and you can't assume the two will be the same.

I stand by my original comment that having two identical subs placed equidistant from the MLP in an asymmetrical room will most likely not result in identical correct logical settings for each sub since room interactions at sub frequencies is much more important than at higher frequencies.
post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post

You CAN assume what Audyssey is going to do to to the sub outs of two similar AVRs with MultiEQ XT32, one having Sub EQ HT and the other not. The two sub outs on each receiver would be manipulated exactly the same except for the individualized timing and volume control on the one with Sub EQ HT. And the last two tweaks can be handled manually with a little effort.

Keith is there a Pro Kit for XT32 or is it still based on XT? Personally I think I would take XT32 over XT with a Pro KIt.

 

Pro uses the underlying MultEQ version, so one Pro kit fits all.  If you have an XT32 unit, then Pro runs 'on top of' that. You are right that straight XT would be better than XT+Pro.

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