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Subwoofer recommendation for a 6500 cu ft family room - rock and classical music mostly - Page 2

post #31 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Or, order up Rythmik FV15HPs, have them sent to a border box and if close, do a day trip and pay the taxes.
Not knowing Canadian taxing practices or the amount of hassle bringing something cross border creates, I can't say if it's time and money well spent. I can say from personal experience, three FV15HPs will rock the joint. We have a pair in a 3300^3 room with openings to large adjacent spaces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

There's not really any hassle, just taxes to pay at the border. Not sure where shunx lives, but in Ontario the combined provincial and federal tax rate is 13%.
Oh, and there's also the unfavourable exchange to take into account: The Canadian dollar has fallen to ~90¢ USD.

Yeah anything cost-effective sounds good. The Rythmik FV15HP's output is larger than the SVS subs, which sounds good to have in this case. If shipping wasn't an issue, are there reasons to choose a PB12-Plus or PB13-Ultra over it? I'd prefer direct shipping as much as possible though, which was the main reason why I simply ordered from SVS, who has a Canadian retailer. I'd have to look into ordering from Rythmik.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If easily done, I would encourage buying two FV15HPs. And due to the space being rather cavernous, if looking to reference level capability, I'd suggest looking to a pair of JTR S2's.

Interesting, any good reviews on the S2?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just saying, anybody who thinks someone can use a five hundred dollar sub to adequately fill a 6500^3 room with bass sound for music or otherwise, has totally lost it.

To be fair, some of us who are new to subwoofers have no idea what is sufficient, with a lack of simple guidelines for consumers. A month ago I was using a 50w HTIB sub which I thought sounded ok. Then I bought a 300w sub from SVS a few weeks ago. Now, with 1000w subs apparently being inadequate, we're starting to talk about a multi-kilowatt setup. IMAX theaters start at 12,000 watts for, what, 400 people? Yeah, I guess 5 kilowatts for my family room sounds like conservative expectation. I mean, we wouldn't want to go overboard, right? wink.gif
Edited by shunx - 1/24/14 at 4:01pm
post #32 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by shunx View Post

To be fair, some of us who are new to subwoofers have no idea what is sufficient, with a lack of simple guidelines for consumers.

My apologies for the misdirected nature of my comment. Forum rules state that my comments can't be personal in nature and someone was unnecessarily doing exactly that and I unnecessarily overreacted to their comment. As I'm sure you know, some people fail to see that the world and or online forums are not all about them and what they think it/they should be. So, my response was a generalized comment of frustration but at no time was it intended to be addressed to you or your comment. For better understanding of the comment, please see my comment in the full context of the post.

For the unintended personal offense, my apologies.

As to what is sufficient for a room, allow me to direct your attention to what I term, "The ULF thread." Look over the first couple of posts in the thread and you'll get an excellent idea of how much subwoofage one needs to fill a room with subwoofer based sound pressure.

Quote:
Interesting, any good reviews on the S2?

JTR Captivator S2

I don't readily have available a review for "JTR Captivator S2" subwoofers but if you use the search function to poke around AVS and the subwoofer forum, you'll find a boatload of anecdotal experience and I'm sure, at the same time, some good old fashion empirical information.

Hopefully the above information will get you moving in the right direction.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/24/14 at 12:40pm
post #33 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdugar View Post
Want to buy a quality subwoofer for < $500 if possible. My listening is 90% music. In fact my TV is not hooked up to my receiver. I probably will end up getting a sound bar and hook it up to the TV. I am not a bass freak. 50% classic rock and 50% classical music.
Rajesh

Sorry, I had been trying to respond to this first post.  The PA150 was probably his best option with these paramaters. He does not need to pressurize his room with super high levels of ultra low frequency multi thousand dollar home theater subs.

 

The other poster does.

 

Hop, I agree with you and the point you made.  Sorry :)

post #34 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
 

The OP never returned after the original post and it looked like his questions had been addressed as well as they could be until he returned with follow up thus when shunx changed the topic to include his space it seemed like a good idea because it gave us something new to talk about. What's the point of keeping on the topic of a thread for a poster who hasen't come back with feed back, especially since we are discussing his needs and wants. When he comes back and starts talking about his thoughts on what was suggested then we can get back on topic.  


Agreed.

post #35 of 65

It's all good guys, I hope the OP comes back at some point so we'll know if this thread helped him or not. 

post #36 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

It's all good guys, I hope the OP comes back at some point so we'll know if this thread helped him or not. 

I doubt it! When I started out there is no way I could come even close to whats being suggested. He just wants a sub to go with his soundbar. rolleyes.gifcool.gif After I was hooked, then it was a different story regardle$$ of WAF

My family room is about 30x24x9 cu ft. Panel walls. Open to the foyer on one side - about 8 ft opening. Another opening leading into a passage.
Want to buy a quality subwoofer for < $500 if possible. My listening is 90% music. In fact my TV is not hooked up to my receiver. I probably will end up getting a sound bar and hook it up to the TV. I am not a bass freak. 50% classic rock and 50% classical music.

What brand, size and type of sub should I look at? Willing to look at used subs too.

Eyeing the Hsu STF-2 or VTF2-MK4, - will those be too low powered for my needs?

Thanks in advance.

Regards
Rajesh
post #37 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post


I believe you get an average 6dB increase mutually coupled or spread for optimum in room response.  Mutually coupled, you get a roughly exact 6db increase that matches the frequency response of the single sub.  Spread out and placed optimally to smooth in room response, you still average a 6 dB increase, but you will get more than six in some of the valleys, and less than six, or none, in the peaks of the single subs response.  But the average is 6dB regardless.

However, the topic of the thread is mostly music, large room < $500.  Op's best option so far is probably the PA150(which you suggested Derrick), which has a boatload more output for music than most home theater subs under $1k.

When 2 drivers are within a 1/4 wave length, they will feel or share their pressure, this is mutual coupling. Two woofer in this case are more efficient and results in a 3 db increase in spl. Since you have two motor from the two sub working, this is doubling the power or another 3 db increase in spl to make 6db. If the two subwoofers are farther apart and don't have the mutual coupling, you are back to 3 db increase running the two subwoofers in the room.smile.gif
post #38 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I am not a bass freak.

Regards
Rajesh


We are the Borg, you will be assimilated.
post #39 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post


When 2 drivers are within a 1/4 wave length, they will feel or share their pressure, this is mutual coupling. Two woofer in this case are more efficient and results in a 3 db increase in spl. Since you have two motor from the two sub working, this is doubling the power or another 3 db increase in spl to make 6db. If the two subwoofers are farther apart and don't have the mutual coupling, you are back to 3 db increase running the two subwoofers in the room.smile.gif


I have to admit, I did not research this on my own, but rather relied on someone else's info regarding this matter.  This was the common conception that I had seen often repeated on this forum.  However, a poster who I consider to be one of the most knowledgeable and technically savvy in all things audio, states otherwise.  I was simply deferring to his knowledge on the subject.  According to Bill Fitzmaurice, two equivalent subs in a room adds 6 dB of spl, regardless of placement.  His explanation was that mutually coupling, or stacking the subs, does not alter the in room frequency response, which results in a smooth, matching, 6 dB increase across the frequency response of the single sub.  Spreading them(according to Bill), adds 6 dB of average spl, although not an exact 6 dB increase tracing the response of the single sub, but, rather, gaining more than 6 db in some valleys, and less than six in some of the peaks for example.  But the end result is an average of 6 dB with smoother response.

 

Would appreciate anyone else's input on this to clarify this.  If Bill is right, then it would seem there are a lot who are misinformed on this forum.  I am fairly new to all this just trying to find my way :)

post #40 of 65
Wow! That's a huge room to fill. My suggestion is to wait and save up to get more and capable subs. Duals minimum with that size room. You'll be missing a lot of bass content in movies and music if you go with a lesser and single sub.
post #41 of 65

LOL. I don't even know which room we are talking about anymore, the OPs or Shunx's. I guess it doesn't mater they are both big.

post #42 of 65
Not everyone needs to buy a $700 bottle of Scotch when a $70 one will do just fine for some people. That's what bass-appetite is really all about. Individual tastes. Despite measurements, meters, spreadsheets, the laws of physics and other empirical arguments, some will be more than content with a lesser sub setup than others. In their particular environment given their lifestyle.

I was actually quite interested in and have been following this thread, since my own needs are not unlike the OP's with similar space to (so-called) 'fill' but perhaps a slightly higher budget. Yet each time I see a similar thread starting with a plea for help such as the OP's, I recoil when it inevitably becomes a feeding ground for people to say 'you need 4x of these, 2x of those and $XXXXX' or it's totally inadequate/impossible/you're nuts.

Everyone's tastes are different and what represents an inadequacy for some is certainly not shared by others who either don't have the budget, auditory capacity or just plain desire for pant-flapping, ceiling cracking, rattle me off the shelves reference level output. Do certain people really not get this? I applaud those who have genuinely attempted to help the OP with his quest for info in keeping with HIS particular needs, and without attempting to impart their own personal tastes onto his. Those posts really do stand out against 'others.'

I have many years under my belt as a musician in both studio and live venue environments, having been immersed in levels of pure bass output/performance that most will not encounter in a lifetime (our bass player is a wealthy gear-freak....and the drummer...absolutely nuts smile.gif .

Yet I, personally, don't need or want such levels in my own home theater. 'Good enough,' for me, will do just fine thank you, 'pressurization and sliderules' be damned. In my case, bass performance is and will always remain one of many variables in the overall home-theater/music experience and although I can appreciate others have an insatiable appetite approaching addiction levels to low frequency massage, I am simply not one of those individuals. I dare say there may be others that are of similar mind. Like the OP. Or perhaps someone who indeed craves the higher-end goods but needs to compromise for one reason or another....budget, WAF, others in the house, neighbours, etc.

I've almost pulled the trigger on an SVS SB2000 pending further research, but keep hearing this is 'totally inadequate' for my 18' ceiling area. For my particular tastes this is almost laughable, for as much scorn as this may generate, during the last 10 years my $200 - 100w...8" 'Sound Dynamics" (think Mission, Energy..) sub, albeit corner loaded, has been to my ears at least, 'adequate.' Hard to believe a 500w 12" unit will be less so for MY requirements.

....just sayin'.
post #43 of 65

Your thoughts are certainly good and I agree that not everyone has the same appetite for bass. But, if a person asks a forum for help they must realize that they will get all sorts of replays from all sorts of people with varying view points. We are just giving our thoughts and opinions based on our experiences as well as our likes and dislikes. That's the best anyone can do.

 

It's up tho the reader to decide which post he will listen to or find worthy of consideration. The rest he can simply ignore, it's not like we are forcing anyone to accept anything said or debated. I'm glad you found some posts that you thought meaningful to you and the OP, but there was some valuable information in many of the other posts that might help broaden people's view of what entails the different types and levels of bass. And to me, that's that these forums are all about. They're not about strict narrow banded topics with no room for expansion, they're about helping one another broaden our understanding of all things audio. 

 

Personally I'm happy that the guys here guided me to different subwoofers than I was originally looking at. The truth is, I didn't know what I didn't know, and it was these forums where I learned so much more than I ever dreamed possible. 

post #44 of 65
The amount of subwoofer gain is complex due to room size, room acoustic or location in anechoic chamber. The second sub can produce a gain of 6 db at certain frequencies in a HT.. There may also be larger dips in the two subs frequency response. The main point is you cannot assume a static gain of any amount over a large frequency range when a system is emitting deep bass from multiple points in a room. There are some complex interactions taking place in a HT and gain is not assured at all at any frequency. Maybe Bill will chime in on this discussion.biggrin.gif.. I am not saying Bill is wrong, it all depends on what parameters are involved. My comment were directed to the OP adding a second sub will not assure him of a 6 db gain across his HT seating area. Also mutually coupling is equibalent to co-locating two subs.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 1/24/14 at 10:07pm
post #45 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzione View Post

Not everyone needs to buy a $700 bottle of Scotch when a $70 one will do just fine for some people. That's what bass-appetite is really all about. Individual tastes. Despite measurements, meters, spreadsheets, the laws of physics and other empirical arguments, some will be more than content with a lesser sub setup than others. In their particular environment given their lifestyle.

I was actually quite interested in and have been following this thread, since my own needs are not unlike the OP's with similar space to (so-called) 'fill' but perhaps a slightly higher budget. Yet each time I see a similar thread starting with a plea for help such as the OP's, I recoil when it inevitably becomes a feeding ground for people to say 'you need 4x of these, 2x of those and $XXXXX' or it's totally inadequate/impossible/you're nuts.

Everyone's tastes are different and what represents an inadequacy for some is certainly not shared by others who either don't have the budget, auditory capacity or just plain desire for pant-flapping, ceiling cracking, rattle me off the shelves reference level output. Do certain people really not get this? I applaud those who have genuinely attempted to help the OP with his quest for info in keeping with HIS particular needs, and without attempting to impart their own personal tastes onto his. Those posts really do stand out against 'others.'

I have many years under my belt as a musician in both studio and live venue environments, having been immersed in levels of pure bass output/performance that most will not encounter in a lifetime (our bass player is a wealthy gear-freak....and the drummer...absolutely nuts smile.gif .

Yet I, personally, don't need or want such levels in my own home theater. 'Good enough,' for me, will do just fine thank you, 'pressurization and sliderules' be damned. In my case, bass performance is and will always remain one of many variables in the overall home-theater/music experience and although I can appreciate others have an insatiable appetite approaching addiction levels to low frequency massage, I am simply not one of those individuals. I dare say there may be others that are of similar mind. Like the OP. Or perhaps someone who indeed craves the higher-end goods but needs to compromise for one reason or another....budget, WAF, others in the house, neighbours, etc.

I've almost pulled the trigger on an SVS SB2000 pending further research, but keep hearing this is 'totally inadequate' for my 18' ceiling area. For my particular tastes this is almost laughable, for as much scorn as this may generate, during the last 10 years my $200 - 100w...8" 'Sound Dynamics" (think Mission, Energy..) sub, albeit corner loaded, has been to my ears at least, 'adequate.' Hard to believe a 500w 12" unit will be less so for MY requirements.

....just sayin'.

Valid comments, fuzzione. I always chuckle a bit myself when I read some of these posts, but Hopinater also makes very good points. I think in general, most here on AVS would like to see people who are new to this arena not make the same mistakes they may have made. Then again, most here are certified bassheads, and obviously not everyone who comes here will share the same sentiments.

When I finally got into researching subwoofers, I didn't come to this site. I spent almost 4 months researching and auditioning on my own. It was only late in the game did I think to come here (and after I had made my decisions). There's a lot of great data one can glean to help "guide" a decision. But in the final scheme of things, it's up to each individual to set his or her own limits per their own home requirements.

I haven't heard the SB2000, so I cannot comment on that particular subwoofer. I will say that my SB13-Ultra can easily shake walls in every room of my 1750 sq. foot house (with certain pieces of music), and I don't listen at reference levels. I think you would be impressed with the sub you are considering, but if by chance you're not, you are out nothing but your time and effort (once they refund your money). Home audition is the best way to try out anything, and with SVS you have 45 days to find out if that subwoofer is the right one for you. It's also the only I.D. company I know that allows free shipping both ways, plus several other perks (of course one pays for that in SVS's pricing structure).
post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzione View Post

Not everyone needs to buy a $700 bottle of Scotch when a $70 one will do just fine for some people. That's what bass-appetite is really all about. Individual tastes. Despite measurements, meters, spreadsheets, the laws of physics and other empirical arguments, some will be more than content with a lesser sub setup than others. In their particular environment given their lifestyle.

I was actually quite interested in and have been following this thread, since my own needs are not unlike the OP's with similar space to (so-called) 'fill' but perhaps a slightly higher budget. Yet each time I see a similar thread starting with a plea for help such as the OP's, I recoil when it inevitably becomes a feeding ground for people to say 'you need 4x of these, 2x of those and $XXXXX' or it's totally inadequate/impossible/you're nuts.

Everyone's tastes are different and what represents an inadequacy for some is certainly not shared by others who either don't have the budget, auditory capacity or just plain desire for pant-flapping, ceiling cracking, rattle me off the shelves reference level output. Do certain people really not get this? I applaud those who have genuinely attempted to help the OP with his quest for info in keeping with HIS particular needs, and without attempting to impart their own personal tastes onto his. Those posts really do stand out against 'others.'

I have many years under my belt as a musician in both studio and live venue environments, having been immersed in levels of pure bass output/performance that most will not encounter in a lifetime (our bass player is a wealthy gear-freak....and the drummer...absolutely nuts smile.gif .

Yet I, personally, don't need or want such levels in my own home theater. 'Good enough,' for me, will do just fine thank you, 'pressurization and sliderules' be damned. In my case, bass performance is and will always remain one of many variables in the overall home-theater/music experience and although I can appreciate others have an insatiable appetite approaching addiction levels to low frequency massage, I am simply not one of those individuals. I dare say there may be others that are of similar mind. Like the OP. Or perhaps someone who indeed craves the higher-end goods but needs to compromise for one reason or another....budget, WAF, others in the house, neighbours, etc.

I've almost pulled the trigger on an SVS SB2000 pending further research, but keep hearing this is 'totally inadequate' for my 18' ceiling area. For my particular tastes this is almost laughable, for as much scorn as this may generate, during the last 10 years my $200 - 100w...8" 'Sound Dynamics" (think Mission, Energy..) sub, albeit corner loaded, has been to my ears at least, 'adequate.' Hard to believe a 500w 12" unit will be less so for MY requirements.

....just sayin'.

If you are considering the SVS SB-2000, recommend you also consider the SVS PB-1000 wink.gif
post #47 of 65
When I first read what Bill F said regarding 3-6dB or even more back when?? (I think he was correcting me) I had to think about it for a few minutes because my thinking was so set and hadn't really experienced any big nulls in the past with single or 2-3 subs except for suck out below 23hz. After taking nulls into account and dual sub placement it all made perfect sense. I still get in the habit of speaking in generalities to a degree like comparing two different subs. There might be a 3-6dB difference between the two but 7dB at ??hz and I’ll still say 3-6dB. In the case of nulls though it’s much more important to point out (as Bill does) that wiping the null out will have a greater effect. Although the room I’m in now is good +-2.5 3dB down to 13-14ish with a single, I would still benefit from a dual sub placement if I could get it right from the standpoint of localize. That being that, I’m tight enough as it is even though I have a few more subs laying around here.
Quote:
Bee> We are the Borg, you will be assimilated.

lol wink.gif
post #48 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

lol wink.gif

...biggrin.gif
post #49 of 65
Use the extra subs if the mismatch is not great. Earl Geddes has a nice paper on mixing different subs and how to set it up. I have mixed ported and sealed with good results. The current Identical sealed subs I have were tougher to integrate in two of my rooms. Identical subs are not always easier to setup due to their location they behave as two different sub and each has it's own room response. Multiple subs have the biggest effect on the nulls in the room. I am not a basshead like many on this forum even though I have four 18 inch subwoofers, since I am more into music.
post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I am not a basshead like many on this forum even though I have four 18 inch subwoofers, since I am more into music.

I'm sorry but the above stated fact, does serious damage to your plea.

...tongue.gif

Your honor, I am not a lothario.

(in my younger years, I wasn't into sex. I was into companionship. I let fifty or sixty woman take advantage of my body, just so I could be with them)


...tongue.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/25/14 at 8:15am
post #51 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Use the extra subs if the mismatch is not great. Earl Geddes has a nice paper on mixing different subs and how to set it up. I have mixed ported and sealed with good results. The current Identical sealed subs I have were tougher to integrate in two of my rooms. Identical subs are not always easier to setup due to their location they behave as two different sub and each has it's own room response. Multiple subs have the biggest effect on the nulls in the room. I am not a basshead like many on this forum even though I have four 18 inch subwoofers, since I am more into music.

I used to take on the subject but it gets so complicated and the variables.. that I just leave it alone now unless really warranted. In the end if it works for the OP and he likes it who am I to trash his rig. He might not care about under 20hz (I can understand) or his room is.. it just goes on and on. Could be a case of 30% better with like subs versus 25% better with a different. Or ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? smile.gif
post #52 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
 

LOL. I don't even know which room we are talking about anymore, the OPs or Shunx's. I guess it doesn't mater they are both big.


The op hasnt returned in a while, the thread has gotten confusing though, as one poster wants theater quality low frequency room pressurization, the other just wants to listen to music and spend less than $500, so two TOTALLY different sets of requirements.  Basically, its a PA-150 or dual Rythmik FV15HP's !

post #53 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post


The op hasnt returned in a while, the thread has gotten confusing though, as one poster wants theater quality low frequency room pressurization, the other just wants to listen to music and spend less than $500, so two TOTALLY different sets of requirements.  Basically, its a PA-150 or dual Rythmik FV15HP's !

I think having a range of expectations helps match the right sub to the room.

The following thread has a very nice spreadsheet that estimates the performance for a set of subs in a certain room size:
www.avsforum.com/t/1488059/your-home-theater-ulf-score

Groundplane SPL at 2 meters away, 20hz:

1x HSU VTF-1 MK2 ($459) = 90.2dB
1x SVS SB12-NSD ($649) = 96.2dB
1x Premier Acoustic PA-150 ($500) = 99.7dB
1x Rythmik F12 ($874) = 102.2dB
1x Rythmik F15 ($974) = 104.2dB
1x SVS PB-1000 ($500) = 105.8dB
1x HSU VTF-2 MK4 ($559) = 105.8dB
1x SVS PB12-NSD ($769) = 109.3dB
1x SVS PB12-Plus ($1399) = 112.5dB
1x Rythmik FV15HP ($1339) = 112.5dB (1 port mode)

Reference level:
1x SVS PB-13 Ultra ($1999) = 116.6dB (20hz mode)
4x SVS PB-1000 ($1896) = 117.8dB
2x Rythmik FV15HP ($2678) = 118.5dB
1x JTR Captivator S2 ($2999) = 120.0dB
1x JTR Captivator 2400 ($2499) = 120.0dB (20hz mode)
2x SVS PB-13 Ultra ($3799) = 122.7dB (20hz mode)
4x SVS PB12-Plus ($5447) = 124.5dB
1x JTR OS ($2999) = 126.0dB
2x JTR Captivator S2 ($5998) = 126.0dB
1x Seaton Submersive HP ($2395) = 127.6dB
4x SVS PB-13-Ultra ($7797) = 128.7dB
2x JTR OS ($5998) = 132.1dB

To stay on-topic, what kind of volumes and frequencies are involved in classic rock and classical music?

The following says that bands in the 1960's to 1980's played at up to 117-130dB live: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudest_band_in_the_world
So based on rock concerts, one might argue that the reference level is also 115dB+ peaks.

In classical music, this says that unamplified bass drums can hit 115dB: http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/frequency_e.html
Interestingly, that's also similar to reference levels in cinema.
Piano's range is 60-100dB and normally goes down to 27.5hz. However a 92-key Bösendorfer can hit 21.827 hz: http://bonesmusic.blogspot.com/2013/07/bosendorfer-pianos-worlds-best-pianos.html
Some pipe organs go down to 8 hz with 64-foot pipes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_%28music%29

Something interesting I read: scientists used a 23ft pipe to lace popular music with inaudible sounds at 60-80dB @ 17hz, and found a significant increase in emotional response. This may explain religious experiences in churches as a result of deep bass from pipe organs over the last 500 years:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3087674.stm
post #54 of 65

Previous post should be helpful for home theater enthusiasts, not so much for music only, as it places a lot of emphasis on low frequency and is dominated by home theater subs

post #55 of 65
Thread Starter 
Thanks all!

I guess I need to define how much bass I need smile.gif and how flexible is the $500.

I honestly don't know. I just want to be able to hear the low frequency notes on most of the music I listen do. No idea

Pink Floyd, The Who, Dire Straits, The Beatles, Bob Marley...
Beethoven's Symphonies, Brahms, Tchaikovsky.... (mostly orchestral, little chamber)

I like the idea of buying a quality sub and adding another later. I assume near field means I can situate it to give me what I need sitting on my couch or something.
So what I hear as consensus is a PA150 or Hsu STF-2 with another one to be added later. The one buy right now, to be situated near field, right?
post #56 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdugar View Post

I guess I need to define how much bass I need smile.gif and how flexible is the $500.

I honestly don't know. I just want to be able to hear the low frequency notes on most of the music I listen do. No idea

Pink Floyd, The Who, Dire Straits, The Beatles, Bob Marley...
Beethoven's Symphonies, Brahms, Tchaikovsky.... (mostly orchestral, little chamber)

Then you need a subwoofer you can run three to six dB hot and have sufficient headroom so when listening to movie sound tracks you won't bump up against the limits of the subwoofer. Bass is funny as we need more energy (10dB to 15dB more) in the lower couple of octaves. In the case of movie sound tracks, they've already figured in an extra 10dB bass boost. So at low volume like one would listen to chamber orchestral music, an extra few dB needs to be dialed in to compensate for this phenomenon, especially if the mixer didn't add it into the sound track at the time of the mixing.

Quote:
I like the idea of buying a quality sub and adding another later. I assume near field means I can situate it to give me what I need sitting on my couch or something.
So what I hear as consensus is a PA150 or Hsu STF-2 with another one to be added later. The one buy right now, to be situated near field, right?

I'm going push your budget to $800.00 and recommend either the SVS PB2000 or the PSA XV15. I'm good if that doesn't work for you. My expectation, based on your above, you'll find more happiness in the above recommendation as bass is the type of pleasure, the more money one throws at the solution, the more happiness one derives from the experience. That's why most here encourage people with question to buy more subwoofage, not less.

Add a second sub as soon as fiscally possible. Yes, it does make that much of a difference; from adding 6dB to the listening level output; smoothing of room modes (peaks and valleys) as well as improving the spacial quality of the bass notes. It's quite an upgrade.

As you surmised, nearfield is placed next to or behind the main listening position (MLP) and in doing this, helps reduce the negative effects of subwoofer produced sound waves as they bounce around the room and at louder levels expected "tactile sensations" in action based sound tracks are greatly improved. Tactile sensations are the thumps and chest bumps one looks for in an effects laden action flix; feel the boom.

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post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdugar View Post

Thanks all!

I guess I need to define how much bass I need smile.gif and how flexible is the $500.

I honestly don't know. I just want to be able to hear the low frequency notes on most of the music I listen do. No idea

Pink Floyd, The Who, Dire Straits, The Beatles, Bob Marley...
Beethoven's Symphonies, Brahms, Tchaikovsky.... (mostly orchestral, little chamber)

I like the idea of buying a quality sub and adding another later. I assume near field means I can situate it to give me what I need sitting on my couch or something.
So what I hear as consensus is a PA150 or Hsu STF-2 with another one to be added later. The one buy right now, to be situated near field, right?


I will say again that the PA-150 is probably your best option for your budget and your needs.  You don't need an expensive home theater sub capable of pressurizing your room with sub 20Hz extension.  Since that has absolutely nothing to do with what you want.   As long as you can play solidly to 30Hz for music you are fine, and the PA 150 easily has a lot more output for music than most home theater subs up to the $800 price point.  Spending this much for home theater subs will do nothing for your music needs and will likely give you less output where you want it. The STF-2, without looking up the measurements, I am taking a guess that it wont match the PA 150 for output, which is important for your large room.

 

You have to remember, 95% of people on this forum have home theater on the brain and are going to try to recommend home theater focused subs necessary to pressurize your room.  However, as stated in your thread, this is clearly not what you are looking for. 

 

I would recommend corner loading the PA 150 if you get it for maximum room gain.  Subwoofer crawl will probably be helpful as well.

post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
 

You have to remember, 95% of people on this forum have home theater on the brain and are going to try to recommend home theater focused subs necessary to pressurize your room.  However, as stated in your thread, this is clearly not what you are looking for. 

 

 

You mean there's something else besides pressurized home theaters with subwoofers that dig down to 10 Hz with clean reference level bass? Why? :)

post #59 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

You mean there's something else besides pressurized home theaters with subwoofers that dig down to 10 Hz with clean reference level bass? Why? smile.gif

I guess I'm hosed then. Our system will only do 11.0Hz. tongue.gif



It's the rare individual who doesn't give a movie based blu-ray or two a try. In the meantime, unless a subwoofer has headroom, it's hard to run a sub hot and not worry when ramping up the blu-ray action. Here's my opinion on the whole subwoofer thing:

"Subwoofers are a money pit of happiness. The more one throws down the rat hole labeled subwoofers, the happier the individual becomes."

The bass in classical music, quite often, is very subtle and a laid back subwoofer is not going properly reproduce the bass unless run a bit hot. Not in my experience.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/27/14 at 2:40pm
post #60 of 65
Something that digs deep can also be a great sub for music, just not a $500 sub. For that price range I can't think of a better sub than the PA 150, which does not have great under 20 Hz output. What sub under $500 really has great sub 20 Hz output. I can't think of one, he he.
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