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Furutech GTX-D - Page 3

post #61 of 172
It's not even worth a response other than, you're incorrect.

This is all we agree upon:
Quote:
For the purposes of this thread the bottom line is if your 15 amp plug fits loose in a 15 amp receptacle, change the defective receptacle to a new receptacle (15 amp) and your plug will fit the receptacle properly. No special receptacle is required other than a good properly rated receptacle.
post #62 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The use of a 20 amp outlet in a 15 amp circuit is not a fire hazard any more than a 15 amp outlet on the same circuit. To say otherwise is hogwash. You still have a 15 amp breaker in the panel. The use of a 15 amp breaker with a 20 amp outlet and a 20 amp plug (piece of equipment that requires a 20 amp circuit) will most likely blow the 15 amp breaker during normal use.


What will draw more current? One single 20 amp receptacle, one 20 amp duplex receptacle on a 15 amp breaker, one 15 amp duplex receptacle on a 15 amp breaker or ten 15 amp duplex outlets on one 15 amp breaker?


Changing a 15 breaker to a 20 amp breaker without use of the correct gauge wire is a fire hazard. The installation of a 15 amp or 20 amp outlet on the same circuit does not create a fire hazard.
Unless the breaker fails and the wiring is not rated for the 20 amp plug...in which case, as you said, it is a fire hazard! And, I'd take a WAG (wild a$$ed guess) that if the electrician installed a 15 amp breaker in the box for that circuit, it's pretty darn likely they used a lesser gauge romex for the branch, because otherwise there'd be no reason not to put a 20 amp breaker there. But, without inspecting the wiring and verifying, it's probably safer just not to use it...besides, what's the point, so long as it's working, the breaker will pop.

At best it's misleading, at worse, the breaker fails and the wiring heats up and burns the house down and the insurance company denies the claim.

I wouldn't take my chances...would you?

P.S. This is all a pretty stupid argument anyway...it's mostly common sense -- why would you even bother to install a 20 amp plug to which you can't actually plug anything that draws 20 amps without popping the breaker? And spend a ton of extra money (on this particular product) to do so....
post #63 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The use of a 20 amp outlet in a 15 amp circuit is not a fire hazard any more than a 15 amp outlet on the same circuit. To say otherwise is hogwash. You still have a 15 amp breaker in the panel. The use of a 15 amp breaker with a 20 amp outlet and a 20 amp plug (piece of equipment that requires a 20 amp circuit) will most likely blow the 15 amp breaker during normal use.


What will draw more current? One single 20 amp receptacle, one 20 amp duplex receptacle on a 15 amp breaker, one 15 amp duplex receptacle on a 15 amp breaker or ten 15 amp duplex outlets on one 15 amp breaker?


Changing a 15 breaker to a 20 amp breaker without use of the correct gauge wire is a fire hazard. The installation of a 15 amp or 20 amp outlet on the same circuit does not create a fire hazard.
Unless the breaker fails and the wiring is not rated for the 20 amp plug...in which case, as you said, it is a fire hazard! And, I'd take a WAG (wild a$$ed guess) that if the electrician installed a 15 amp breaker in the box for that circuit, it's pretty darn likely they used a lesser gauge romex for the branch, because otherwise there'd be no reason not to put a 20 amp breaker there. But, without inspecting the wiring and verifying, it's probably safer just not to use it...besides, what's the point, so long as it's working, the breaker will pop.

At best it's misleading, at worse, the breaker fails and the wiring heats up and burns the house down and the insurance company denies the claim.

I wouldn't take my chances...would you?

P.S. This is all a pretty stupid argument anyway...it's mostly common sense -- why would you even bother to install a 20 amp plug to which you can't actually plug anything that draws 20 amps without popping the breaker? And spend a ton of extra money (on this particular product) to do so....


It is a simple discussion, not an argument. I don't see the need to install a 20 amp outlet in a typical dwelling unless you have special equipment that requires a 20 amp plug along with a 20 amp circuit installed to code.

I have plenty of 20 amp circuits in my home, but they all use multiple 15 amp duplex outlets.

It is easy to overload a typical dwelling 15 amp circuit that has the typical multiple 15 amp receptacles and correct wiring. If you have a defective breaker, it does not matter what you use for outlets. The circuit is a safety and fire hazard.
post #64 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Your referring to a single outlet branch circuit only states that the receptacle shall not be less then the rated branch circuit, however that does not permit your interpretation of usage of a higher rated receptacle, making possible the use of appliances that are over sized for the circuits capacity. By your logic that would permit the installation of any higher rated receptacle as long as it is not below the stipulated matching amperage. A really ridiculous interpretation - I am by your logic permitted to install an 100Amp arc-tight outlet to a 15 amp singly terminated circuit?
Your advice should be eliminated from the posting as they are a clear code violation by someone who cannot read what the code states.
It is dangerous to anybody and potentially a life threatening fire-hazard. You are a nincompoop, dear sir.

I am not an electrician but I did low voltage course work and hold a supplementary ticket to the gas ticket to wire gas fired heating appliances and I have worked in industrial camps with connections up to 100 Amps.
Let me start by saying that your concern for the safety of members is noted and heartfelt, the jab at my IQ notwithstanding smile.gif.

You say that what I suggested is a clear code violation. The code uses three different types of specifications: minimum, maximum and specific (i.e. the one and only thing accepted). In this case, the specification sets a minimum standard and no maximum. It would be like building code saying I post has to be 2x4 and I put in 2x6. There is no code violation. My recommendation matches the code word for word. Using 20 amp outlet on 15 amp circuit is fully compliant with the code.

Your interpretation is just that, an interpretation that even though the code is setting a minimum, in really it is setting at a specific value, i.e. the circuit capacity. You say my answer is dangerous and life threatening but you don’t explain the theory behind that and the specifics in this situation. So let’s parse it on our own. I welcome your comments.

I imagine your concern stems from the fact that if there is a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, someone can plug in an appliance that can exceed that rating. As I noted in the table I posted from NEC, this is clearly allowed for 40 amp circuits:

i-CBxjnZW-XL.png

The 40 amp circuit is clearly allowed to have a 50 amp outlet. For the code to be so specific here, clearly there is no danger in having an outlet that exceeds circuit’s current rating.

It is not like the 15 amp outlets protect the circuit from over current in that manner anyway. Personal example: in one our bedrooms we have five duplex outlets on the same circuit. That is 10 outlets total. Let’s say I plug in a 10 amp vacuum and a 12 amp space heater in another. So now the total is 22 amps. Are you saying that I am going to have a fire? Remember, I have 8 other outlets to still plug things into! So the opportunity to overload a circuit is ample even with 15 amp outlet.

The code allows that many outlets on one circuit and with it, implicitly accepts that you can pull way more current out of that circuit than it is designed to do. If your worry is right, then they would have to limit you to a single outlet since any more than that would allow the homeowner to exceed what the circuit is designed to feed.

Let’s look at what you are recommending and see if that is a “safe” thing given your concern. We have a 15 amp circuit breaker and 14 gauge wire connected to a 15 amp outlet. Now imagine someone plugging in an appliance that has a dead short in it. The amount of current it takes to vaporize and open that short could be enormous – way more than the 15 amps rating of the circuit. Do we have a hazard now? Of course not. The breaker’s job is to provide current limiting to protect the downstream portions of the circuit. It will trip in a second or less (hopefully much less) during which the wiring *will* be subjected to the much increased load and hence heat rise. The wire will not be allowed to reach the temperature at which it will catch on fire or pose any safety risk because the breaker will pop after that short period. This scenario is one of the key ones the code intends to protect the homeowner from. We can't stop the homeowner from creating a short. But we can avoid that causing a fire. If we have protection against such high amount of current, the difference between a 15 and 20 amp outlet/usage is surely covered just the same.

So to answer your question, yes, if there were a 100 amp outlet that was designed for 120 volt operation you could indeed use that. It will tolerate a lot more abuse than the 15 amp and be the strongest link in the chain.

Note that your local municipality may have different rules than what the national code mandates. In your case you live in Canada so the CEC would be your concern, not the US NEC. The treatment may be different there.

So in short, there is no safety risk here. If you can identify it, I am happy to be convinced otherwise smile.gif.
post #65 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

Unless the breaker fails and the wiring is not rated for the 20 amp plug...in which case, as you said, it is a fire hazard!
The fire hazard is the failing breaker. That will cause many scenarios under which you could have that fire, far more than anyone using 20 amp appliance on a 15 amp circuit. The code has no provision for double protection here. If the breaker fails, you are in trouble no matter what.
Quote:
And, I'd take a WAG (wild a$$ed guess) that if the electrician installed a 15 amp breaker in the box for that circuit, it's pretty darn likely they used a lesser gauge romex for the branch, because otherwise there'd be no reason not to put a 20 amp breaker there. But, without inspecting the wiring and verifying, it's probably safer just not to use it...besides, what's the point, so long as it's working, the breaker will pop.
As J_Palmer and I have explained, there is no added measure of safety here. You can overload the 15 amp circuit readily and easily by plugging in multiple appliances that together exceed the 15 amp circuit's current carrying ability. If the code is not concerned about this, how could it be an added safety risk????
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At best it's misleading, at worse, the breaker fails and the wiring heats up and burns the house down and the insurance company denies the claim.
Nope. The insurance company has people who know the code and the real meaning as we have explained and there is no issue there. The issue will be the failing breaker and if that is accidental, you will be covered.
Quote:
I wouldn't take my chances...would you?
There are no chances to take. As we keep saying, you are already in that situation with multiple 15 amp outlets or someone shorting it out. Now, would any of us or an electrician run a 15 amp circuit and then put a 20 amp outlet on it? Of course not. In my case, my entire house has 14 gauge wiring and 20 amp outlets. The incremental cost was negligible to do this in my case. The code sets minimum standards which in this case is 12 gauge and 15 amps. There is no reason to comply with that minimum standard. Our homes keep using more and more power equipment than in the past. My son in his bedroom has one of my older subs and complete audio system including the genelec powered speakers I gave him. Then he has a computer, etc. On top of that he may plug in a vacuum to clean his room. If you are building a new home or major remodel, it pays to go with 20 amp circuits and be done with it.
Quote:
P.S. This is all a pretty stupid argument anyway...it's mostly common sense -- why would you even bother to install a 20 amp plug to which you can't actually plug anything that draws 20 amps without popping the breaker? And spend a ton of extra money (on this particular product) to do so....
Reading and understanding the code can be very difficult. Explaining the logic will be helpful to people in other situations now. All the worry about risk of fire shows that understanding is not there. So we have accomplished something beyond OP's question.

Edit: fixed the typo of the wire gauge (14 instead of 12). Maybe not! smile.gif The forum software seems to have a bug. The preview shows 14 but when I hit submit, it keeps saying 12....
Edited by amirm - 2/10/14 at 8:50am
post #66 of 172
Quote:
implicitly accepts that you can pull way more current out of that circuit than it is designed to do. If your worry is right, then they would have to limit you to a single outlet since any more than that would allow the homeowner to exceed what the circuit is designed to feed

Multiple outlets are clearly - as stated on the table - limited to the total amount of load the breaker protects against. Each outlet can draw a maximum of 15 amps (actually 12 amps considering the power factor)
and if more draw for the total of outlets is drawn - the breaker de energizes,
Quote:
We have a 15 amp circuit breaker and 14 gauge wire connected to a 15 amp outlet. Now imagine someone plugging in an appliance that has a dead short in it. The amount of current it takes to vaporize and open that short could be enormous – way more than the 15 amps rating of the circuit. Do we have a hazard now? Of course not. The breaker’s job is to provide current limiting to protect the downstream portions of the circuit.

A breaker is designed to protect against dead shorts, but not so good working when an overdraw happens. I have seen the result of a heat-tracer that was wrongly terminated, the ground likely touching with only a few wires the hot wire. Imagine the amazement when the breaker did not trip, but the heat tracer burned up - and half the mobile home too....so much for your theory.
Edited by kraut - 2/10/14 at 8:00am
post #67 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Multiple outlets are clearly - as stated on the table - limited to the total amount of load the breaker protects against.
That "limit" is only enforced by the circuit breaker. And that same circuit breaker must trip when you use a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit and pull more than ~15 amps.
Quote:
Each outlet can draw a maximum of 15 amps (actually 12 amps considering the power factor) and if more draw for the total of outlets is drawn - the breaker de energizes,
Same things happen if you have a 20 amp outlet pulling more than what the 15 amp circuit can provide.
Quote:
A breaker is designed to protect against dead shorts, but not so good working when an overdraw happens. I have seen the result of a heat-tracer that was wrongly terminated, the ground likely touching with only a few wires the hot wire. Imagine the amazement when the breaker did not trip, but the heat tracer burned up - and half the mobile home too....so much for your theory.
I mentioned no such theory. I gave an example. The code does not guarantee that there are zero risks. It is intended to provide an acceptable level of safety. I can create a fire in an appliance with far less than 15 amps. All I need to do is create enough heat next to something ignitable and I will have a fire. The building codes do not get involved in appliance safety anyway. They have their own standards.

So again, no risk has been identified that is any different than exists in every home today with multiple outlets, overcurrent, and shorts.
post #68 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

If you're upgrading all of your home receptacles, you probably should upgrade everything else also. smile.gif
http://www.electrical-forensics.com/CircuitBreakers/CircuitBreakers.html

Bottom line is.... sh!t happens. Even licensed electricians get a jolt.
No need for "scare tactics" or over-engineering. (or putting lipstick on a pig)
Use what you think is best for your personal satisfaction.
Scare tactic would be telling people there is an additional fire risk when there is not! Let's not use layman assumptions of a "20 amp is more than 15 so there must be risk of fire." This is a specialized field and one has to have proper knowledge to provide correct advice. Otherwise, it becomes a scare tactic with no foundation
post #69 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post


Pardon me but I couldn't help noticing a discrepancy in your replies. How can you tell if it's good information when you're not acquainted with it?
I will quote US supreme court justice Stewart for the answer:

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. [Emphasis added.]
—Justice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 U.S. 184 (1964), regarding possible obscenity in The Lovers.

If you are a general practitioner and you go to a seminar about the latest advances in lung cancer treatment and you hear a presentation by an oncologist/researcher, I am sure you can identify if he knows what he is talking about or not even though your specialty is not in cancer treatment. it is a judgement call and one "knows it when he sees it."

By the same token, as a fellow engineer I can tell when someone explains things properly and works in the relevant field. We have shared knowledge that allows me to examine what he is saying and then listen to his explanation above and beyond. I can also tell if someone is not in the same standing by quoting forum posts or random stuff from the Internet.

Surely you can tell your doctor apart from some random person on the Internet giving you advice on what ails you even though you yourself are not a doctor.
post #70 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

So again, no risk has been identified that is any different than exists in every home today with multiple outlets, overcurrent, and shorts.

It doesn't matter what you opine about the risk. What matters is what the Code is, and I think it does not allow 20A receptacles on 15A circuits.
post #71 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

It doesn't matter what you opine about the risk. What matters is what the Code is, and I think it does not allow 20A receptacles on 15A circuits.
Well it does. That is the first thing I post. Here it is again:

"(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit.
A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."


Not less than does not in any way mean equal. 20 amp outlet is more than 15 amp branch circuit current rating. So we are compliant. Anything else is an opinion, not what the code clearly says.

I have explained the theory, given the relevant code, and a number of examples. Yet you all keep insisting it is wrong without explaining the theory, proper examples of risks, and code supporting your point of view.
post #72 of 172
The code you cite does not pertain to the duplex receptacle of topic. You provided that code section as well.

As to the rest, my (and your) personal assesment of risk and theory is irrelevant to what the Code requires.
Edited by whoaru99 - 2/10/14 at 10:31am
post #73 of 172
You cannot and should not use a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. No matter how one would like to argue the statement.
post #74 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

You cannot and should not use a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. No matter how one would like to argue the statement.

Yes, that is the code and I assume it's to prevent the accidental plug in of a 20a device and the nuisance tripping that would cause. In such an application the user may be inclined to just install a 20 breaker leaving the 14ga wire in place. That is what I believe this code is for.

But from a technical point of view, there is no immediate danger installing a 20a receptacle on a 15a circuit because as stated it is protected by a 15a breaker.

I have found over the years that the team who decides the NEC every three years are really not idiots at all even though their decisions sometimes make no sense. If you analyze the decision in depth like I did above, it starts to make some sense. There is a lot of human psychology that goes into code decisions along with the pure technical science. We humans live to do stupid things when afforded the opportunity!

P.S. and let's not forget the 80% rule. A device that pulls 19amps could not obtain a listing for use on a 20a circuit. It would require a 30amp plug. Look at most 2400kva UPS units. They all have 30a plugs.
Edited by Glimmie - 2/10/14 at 11:44am
post #75 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

It doesn't matter what you opine about the risk. What matters is what the Code is, and I think it does not allow 20A receptacles on 15A circuits.
Well it does. That is the first thing I post. Here it is again:

"(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit.
A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."


Not less than does not in any way mean equal. 20 amp outlet is more than 15 amp branch circuit current rating. So we are compliant. Anything else is an opinion, not what the code clearly says.

I have explained the theory, given the relevant code, and a number of examples. Yet you all keep insisting it is wrong without explaining the theory, proper examples of risks, and code supporting your point of view.


My code handbook is old, but in Table 210-24 Summary of Branch-Circuit Requirements it clearly states that for a 15 amp circuit rating, the receptacle rating is 15 amp maximum. However, the table is for two or more receptacles of the duplex type that the OP posted.

The code seems to state that a single receptacle outlet has to be a minimum 15 amp rating. I can find nothing in the code that prohibits the 20 amp single receptacle (AKA not duplex) from being used on a dedicated single outlet 15 amp circuit.
post #76 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

The code you cite does not pertain to the duplex receptacle of topic. You provided that code section as well.
But does pertain to the supposed fire risk you all seem to be concerned about. There is no increased risk at all. And the section on multiple outlets had an example of a 40 amp circuit having a 50 amp outlet.
Quote:
As to the rest, my (and your) personal assesment of risk and theory is irrelevant to what the Code requires.
Sadly none of you seemed to know what the code says or I would not be the only one citing it. So if it is so important, it is surprising that you don't lead with the code, and argue with the person (me) who did.

And by the way, there was no "assessment of risk" as if I am speculating. Nice try though smile.gif. The discussion is about correcting the notion that some kind of new risk exists in this situation that did not exist otherwise. It involved the simplest notion in this area not being understood: that every home today is wired in a way that the 15 amp maximum rating of the circuit can be violated by any homeowner with 15 amp outlets. And that the it is the job of the breaker to keep things safe which it does in both situation.

So yes, your opinion in this area is incorrect and without foundation and shows lack of experience in this area. That does not apply to me. Let's not try these debating tactics. If you have something new to share, please do.
post #77 of 172
I suppose it really boils down to this advice of kamiraa's :
Quote:
A good connection, with low resistance is worth it if powering power hungry equipment and if the gauge of wire behind the wall supports it.

So, let's have an example, even hypothetical , of 'power hungry' home audio setup that would audibly benefit from upgraded receptacles , and what gauge of in-wall wiring would be needed to support it?

If all is meant that, a high-grade receptacle is less likely to break/wear out/ corrode, that's a different thing. I'm talking about both receptacles operating in good condition. Under what conditions would a listener take an audible 'hit' from using the standard ones? Let's assume the listener has good hearing too, and the room isn't abnormally noisy.
post #78 of 172
LOL...
Personally, I won't lose any sleep. Take the info, try to comprehend and do what you think best.

IMHO, I wouldn't do something stupid and compromise my home, insurance or ... the life of my family based on BS. The codes are there for a reason. You can choose to do what you perceive to be better.
post #79 of 172
Beside the code there is what in the trades is considered "good practice". If in doubt regarding code interpretation - you consider what is good practice, and good practice is to not try to overload circuits. Which means you terminate 14AWG wire protected by a 15A breaker (actually max load 12 Amps) with a 15 Amp receptacle (usually dual receptacle), a 12AWG wire with a 20 Amp breaker with a 20Amp receptacle, a 10AWG wire protected by a 30Amp breaker with a 30Amp receptacle. I would not expect any electrician wiring any of my boiler or pump installs to do less.
post #80 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I suppose it really boils down to this advice of kamiraa's :
So, let's have an example, even hypothetical , of 'power hungry' home audio setup that would audibly benefit from upgraded receptacles , and what gauge of in-wall wiring would be needed to support it?

If all is meant that, a high-grade receptacle is less likely to break/wear out/ corrode, that's a different thing. I'm talking about both receptacles operating in good condition. Under what conditions would a listener take an audible 'hit' from using the standard ones? Let's assume the listener has good hearing too, and the room isn't abnormally noisy.

Well let's clarify "high grade".

If you mean a $5 specification grade, yes it is well worth the money over a 79cent receptacle. You could even go to a green dot hospital gerade for about $10 but you really don't have to worry about insulation ground leakage on an AV system.

But if you think "high grade" means a $200 plus audiophile grade receptacles, that's snake oil. We know that most audiophile receptacles are made from stock spec grade receptacles, it is my firm belief that the "audiophile upgrades" done actually diminish the receptacle quality.

My beliefs aside, these so called upgrades surely void any safety certification unless re-certified.
post #81 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

LOL...
Personally, I won't lose any sleep. Take the info, try to comprehend and do what you think best.

IMHO, I wouldn't do something stupid and compromise my home, insurance or ... the life of my family based on BS. The codes are there for a reason. You can choose to do what you perceive to be better.



How many 120 VAC 15 or 20 amp single receptacle outlets installed on a dedicated circuit (AKA one receptacle on breaker) do you have in your home? I don't have even one of those so it is a non issue to me.

The OP was talking about a two receptacle outlet, so the one receptacle rule does not apply even if there was one outlet (2 receptacles) on a dedicated line.
post #82 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post


So yes, your opinion in this area is incorrect and without foundation and shows lack of experience in this area. That does not apply to me. Let's not try these debating tactics. If you have something new to share, please do.

The point remains, you opinion about it doesn't matter. Only what the code says. The code says no 20A duplex receptacles on 15A circuits, just what the OP asked about.

Citing non-applicable code shows irresponsible behavior in this area. So, let's not try the appeal to authority tactics to support non-applicable code reference.
Edited by whoaru99 - 2/10/14 at 1:15pm
post #83 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The code seems to state that a single receptacle outlet has to be a minimum 15 amp rating. I can find nothing in the code that prohibits the 20 amp single receptacle (AKA not duplex) from being used on a dedicated single outlet 15 amp circuit.

Right, and do you know why that is?
post #84 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The code seems to state that a single receptacle outlet has to be a minimum 15 amp rating. I can find nothing in the code that prohibits the 20 amp single receptacle (AKA not duplex) from being used on a dedicated single outlet 15 amp circuit.

Right, and do you know why that is?


The NEC handbook does not say why that is, but I assume it is total current capacity related (shared multiple receptacles verses single dedicated).

What do you say is the reason why that is?
post #85 of 172
I say the same as you. Single point load vs. distributed loads. With one single receptacle you know all the load is going to be there, therefore a single receptacle cannot be less than the circuit rating.
post #86 of 172
One 20 amp single/duplex receptacle on a dedicated circuit with 14 AWG and a 15 amp circuit breaker is wrong.
If you use 12 AWG and a 20 amp breaker.... use a 15 or 20 amp outlet. Simple
post #87 of 172
J_Palmer_Cass / amirm,

Thank you for pointing out something I glaringly overlooked -- the fact that most circuits in the house can be overloaded and a breaker failure itself is a fire hazard regardless of what receptacle was at the end of it. I will concede that regardless of the outlet used, most multi-outlet runs can easily be overloaded regardless of the outlets used.

That said -- I still think we can all agree that regardless of the code interpretation, it is still stupid to install a 20 amp receptacle on a circuit rated for 15 amps. Whether or not it is an additional fire hazard or an insurance company would use its presence to deny a claim is, I suppose a "scare tactic" that I will admit I used to keep the O.P. from doing something I think we can all agree is fundamentally dumb.

To that end, I'll bow out gracefully. Thanks for making me think a bit more on the topic. I still wouldn't bother to install a 20 amp receptacle on a circuit that couldn't make use of it. Moreover, I sure as heck wouldn't spend the money on this particular product. Given I believe we all can agree there, I think I've had enough, lol.

P.S. J_Palmer_Cass, I still think things are getting a bit argumentative and it's still dumb, wink.gif. But, I do appreciate your righting my glaring stupidity overlooking a simple fact of life about the breaker...sometimes in trying to make an "argument" I'll say something stupid that I didn't think through and need to be set straight, haha frown.gif.
post #88 of 172
See post #3. smile.gif
There really shouldn't be a discussion. You're welcome.tongue.gif
post #89 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

J_Palmer_Cass / amirm,

Thank you for pointing out something I glaringly overlooked -- the fact that most circuits in the house can be overloaded and a breaker failure itself is a fire hazard regardless of what receptacle was at the end of it. I will concede that regardless of the outlet used, most multi-outlet runs can easily be overloaded regardless of the outlets used.

That said -- I still think we can all agree that regardless of the code interpretation, it is still stupid to install a 20 amp receptacle on a circuit rated for 15 amps. Whether or not it is an additional fire hazard or an insurance company would use its presence to deny a claim is, I suppose a "scare tactic" that I will admit I used to keep the O.P. from doing something I think we can all agree is fundamentally dumb.

To that end, I'll bow out gracefully. Thanks for making me think a bit more on the topic. I still wouldn't bother to install a 20 amp receptacle on a circuit that couldn't make use of it. Moreover, I sure as heck wouldn't spend the money on this particular product. Given I believe we all can agree there, I think I've had enough, lol.

P.S. J_Palmer_Cass, I still think things are getting a bit argumentative and it's still dumb, wink.gif. But, I do appreciate your righting my glaring stupidity overlooking a simple fact of life about the breaker...sometimes in trying to make an "argument" I'll say something stupid that I didn't think through and need to be set straight, haha frown.gif.
Well, you are being a true gentleman in your response smile.gif. There is a lesson on how we should conduct ourselves in such conversations.

And yes we agree. I would personally never think of installing a 20 amp outlet on the 15 amp line because it is misleading to the next homeowner as to the capability of the line. Also agree on the need for such an outlet. I much rather pay the electrician to run a 12 gauge wire than to pay the same amount for a fancy outlet on the 15 amp line.
post #90 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

The point remains, you opinion about it doesn't matter. Only what the code says. The code says no 20A duplex receptacles on 15A circuits, just what the OP asked about.

And I answered that very question in my post when I cited the code:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If you have more than one outlet, then the following applies:

(3) Receptacle Ratings.
Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)


This is table 210.21:

i-CBxjnZW-XL.png

So we see that in this case you are limited to 15 amp outlets. I suspect that is specified so that the wrong expectation is not set for the user. I can't think of a safety hazard. Indeed note that for 40 amp, you can have 50 amp outlets.

I have bolded the answer to OP.
Quote:
Citing non-applicable code shows irresponsible behavior in this area. So, let's not try the appeal to authority tactics to support non-applicable code reference.
Again, you are not following the conversation in the thread. I post the single receptacle code because of claims like this which were made at the very start of the thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I don't think using a 20 amp receptacle/outlet on a 15 amp circuit is code. (fire hazard)

By showing that the code actually allows 20 amp outlet on 15 amp circuit, one has ample proof that there is no fire hazard. You yourself jumped on the bandwagon:
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Even in the case of a single receptacle I'm not sure it's a simple as the few lines that were posted. A paragraph or two past where that table comes from it states a circuit cannot be loaded beyond the circuit rating. Putting a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit facilitates applying more load than circuit rating. That's why the 20A is different....to help avert overloading the smaller circuit.
The bolded section is just wrong. I can using multiple outlets overload a 15 amp circuit as much as I want. The next sentence is wrong too. If I have a 20 amp circuit and multiple 20 amp outlets as I do all over my house and workshop, I can still overload them by utilizing multiple outlets. This is basic stuff that is not understood. So no "appeal to authority" is needed to correct.
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