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Any opinions on SVS, Rythmik, and JL subwoofers? - Page 2

post #31 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

It needs to be stated that you are comparing JL Audio's published anechoic spec (outdoor ground-plane measurement) to an in-room response. This is not apples to apples.

Hmmmmmm, it's not nice to get into it with a manufacture rep. Fair enough. Below, quasi anechoic measurement by JL Audio and Data-Bass.

JL Audio ESub e112...Frequency Response (Anechoic) 22 - 118 Hz (1.5dB) -3 dB at 21 Hz / 120 Hz

Data-Bass:

..............................................12.5....16.0.....20.0.....25.0.....31.5....40.0.....50.0.....63.0.....80.0...100.0...125.0...Hz

Rythmik Audio, FV15HP(1 port)
Single 15" driver:

...............................................98.5...104.0...108.3...111.7...115.3...117.8...118.0...117.9...117.8...117.6...117.2...dB

In room we're down to 11Hz. I was responding on a forum and yes, my response reflects this point. On a more subdued response, out of consideration that I'm having a professional interchange with a manufacture's rep, my comments, even if quasi anechoic comparisons are made, are still accurate.

Here's our in room, no smoothing applied, REW, frequency sweep graph:



In my opinion, I've offered up sufficient information to validate my in-home claim vs quasi anechoic (open plane/apples to apples) comparisons.


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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/9/14 at 12:13pm
post #32 of 71
Bragging that a FV15HP digs deeper than a sealed 12" from JL Audio is just nuts. They are very different subs. You don't even have any measurements by which to compare them. It's nice that you like your subwoofer, but I wouldn't be using it to knock other subs when you know virtually nothing about their performance, especially given the kind of drivers JL Audio uses.
post #33 of 71

The FV15HP would be a horrible option for the ops needs.  He wants a sealed, musical sub for a small room that is flat to 200Hz.  The FV15HP would be one of the worst recommendations possible for this scenario.

post #34 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

The FV15HP would be a horrible option for the ops needs.  He wants a sealed, musical sub for a small room that is flat to 200Hz.  The FV15HP would be one of the worst recommendations possible for this scenario.

Just saying, a suggestion, reread my comments so as to maintain context of the comment. Intentionally taking one's comments out of context, is being intellectually dishonest.
post #35 of 71

Nothing is out of context.  The op asked for advice for his specific situation.  Your suggestion was off base.  I felt the op deserved to know such a suggestion was probably not his best option(pretty sure he already knows this)  You are welcome, as is anyone, to post opinions.  But if you are off base in your suggestions, others have a right to say so as well.  The FV15HP was your suggestion for the OP, and it is a terrible one, which I pointed out.  There is no argument here.

post #36 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Nothing is out of context.  The op asked for advice for his specific situation.  Your suggestion was off base.

Back to dragging the thread off topic I see.

In your opinion, my suggestion is way off base. In my opinion, it was germane to the question and for me, was an intellectually honest response, hence why I responded with the comments that I did.

Just because someone doesn't think like another, doesn't make one or both parties wrong.

I guess some people aren't happy unless they're telling those around them how wrong they are as they find need to continue dragging fine threads off topic.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/9/14 at 1:46pm
post #37 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post
 my recommendations would be to add some money to your budget, buy a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs and be done with it because a pair of FV15HPs, properly dialed in, would kill, bury and dance on your above thoughts regarding SVS and JL.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

 

 I have decided to go between the SVS Sb-2000, Rythmik F12, and JL's new E-Sub.  . Everything will be placed in a 1400 Sq.ft. sealed room.

 

My usage is about 70% music and 30% HT

 

 

Great advice.  Actually, I would recommend dual Orbit Shifters.(not really)

post #38 of 71
Thread Starter 

Like I said earlier, I would really prefer a sealed 12" sub over ported. 15" just seems too big to me. If I end up getting any sub over the Rythmik I will be bringing it to my uncles to do a comparison between it and my uncles Rythmiks. "I decided to bring it there instead of having to go get his and bring it back."

 

I wish I could do a DIY Subwoofer. But I am not the best when it comes to wood work. I know someone that is but I don’t feel comfortable investing that much into a build which I have no idea how it would perform.

 

Does anyone know of any other "pre-built" Subwoofers that I may have overlooking?

 

 

 

post #39 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

Like I said earlier, I would really prefer a sealed 12" sub over ported. 15" just seems too big to me.

I try to post to the question and underlying issues. I find intrinsic details are just that, stop signs that need to be overcome. Based on what you've posted, I don't believe you'll be happy with what you suggest in your above.

If wanting to stick with sealed and small, my recommendation would be to look at a pair of SB2000s.

Tech Specs

Or a pair of PSA XS15s, but now you're back into 15" drivers.

In my opinion, at this price point, a pair of XS15s are the price/performance top dog but at this price point, either SVS or PSA, both are going be a winner.

Have you checked out the first couple of posts in the ULF thread?

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/9/14 at 5:10pm
post #40 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Back to dragging the thread off topic I see.

In your opinion, my suggestion is way off base. In my opinion, it was germane to the question and for me, was an intellectually honest response, hence why I responded with the comments that I did.

Just because someone doesn't think like another, doesn't make one or both parties wrong.

I guess some people aren't happy unless they're telling those around them how wrong they are as they find need to continue dragging fine threads off topic.

-
So says the pot to the kettle.

We get it. You like your Rythmik subs.

I like my SVS.

Your "advice" is a cut and paste from nearly every thread in the sub forum.

It's old and stale. Maybe come up with something new for the next year of copy and paste.
Thanks.
post #41 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Your "advice" is a cut and paste from nearly every thread in the sub forum.

It's old and stale. Maybe come up with something new for the next year of copy and paste.
Thanks.
+1
post #42 of 71
Here's the threads title: "Any opinions on SVS, Rythmik, and JL subwoofers?"

The thread must have run it's course as there seem to be fewer and fewer opinions being posted on the available products made by the three manufactures listed in the thread title.
post #43 of 71
You may be able to find a nice used JL Fathom F112 or F113 for around the price you mentioned. They would work quite well for both home theater and music.
post #44 of 71
Thanks for taking it easy on me, BeeMan458... I'm too old to argue on the internet. smile.gif

Just curious about the numbers you posted for the Rhythmik, though... are these FR numbers or Max output at various frequencies at some distortion limit? I'm seeing an F3 at about 28 Hz if those are FR numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Hmmmmmm, it's not nice to get into it with a manufacture rep. Fair enough. Below, quasi anechoic measurement by JL Audio and Data-Bass.

JL Audio ESub e112...Frequency Response (Anechoic) 22 - 118 Hz (1.5dB) -3 dB at 21 Hz / 120 Hz

Data-Bass:

..............................................12.5....16.0.....20.0.....25.0.....31.5....40.0.....50.0.....63.0.....80.0...100.0...125.0...Hz

Rythmik Audio, FV15HP(1 port)
Single 15" driver:

...............................................98.5...104.0...108.3...111.7...115.3...117.8...118.0...117.9...117.8...117.6...117.2...dB

In room we're down to 11Hz. I was responding on a forum and yes, my response reflects this point. On a more subdued response, out of consideration that I'm having a professional interchange with a manufacture's rep, my comments, even if quasi anechoic comparisons are made, are still accurate.

Here's our in room, no smoothing applied, REW, frequency sweep graph:



In my opinion, I've offered up sufficient information to validate my in-home claim vs quasi anechoic (open plane/apples to apples) comparisons.


-
post #45 of 71
I'm really torn between a Toyota, Ford, or a Tesla Roadster... Help me!
post #46 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

Thanks for taking it easy on me, BeeMan458... I'm too old to argue on the internet. smile.gif

This is your lucky day. I'm too old to argue on the internet also. tongue.gif

Quote:
Just curious about the numbers you posted for the Rythmik, though... are these FR numbers or Max output at various frequencies at some distortion limit? I'm seeing an F3 at about 28 Hz if those are FR numbers.

They are numbers posted by Data-Bass.

Here's their graphs for the FV15HP in one port mode.

The posted graph is a REW measurement of our two FV15HPs as REW plays and measures a 10Hz to 150Hz sweep.
post #47 of 71
Msmith,

I really want a stealth box!
post #48 of 71
Thread Starter 

I would be willing to buy a used JL Fathom. There is even one being sold locally. But, Unfortunately the seller is mentally insane. The box looks like someone took a hammer to it and he even admits the amplifier is bad. Yet, he is still asking $1,200!

 

Has anyone gotten ahold of the SVS Sb-2000 yet? If you have could you post up some pictures of the Driver? Like I said no one has a picture of it and not even SVS themselves are willing to provide a picture of it. It is making me really curious about what changes they made.

post #49 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

I would be willing to buy a used JL Fathom. There is even one being sold locally. But, Unfortunately the seller is mentally insane. The box looks like someone took a hammer to it and he even admits the amplifier is bad. Yet, he is still asking $1,200!

Has anyone gotten ahold of the SVS Sb-2000 yet? If you have could you post up some pictures of the Driver? Like I said no one has a picture of it and not even SVS themselves are willing to provide a picture of it. It is making me really curious about what changes they made.

They come up from time-to-time on Audiogon.
post #50 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeDelmo View Post

I would be willing to buy a used JL Fathom. There is even one being sold locally. But, Unfortunately the seller is mentally insane. The box looks like someone took a hammer to it and he even admits the amplifier is bad. Yet, he is still asking $1,200!


Did he tell you what he did to it? That's crazy. A Fathom that wasnt used as a crash test dummy is a great sounding sub that is built like a tank and holds its resale. It's not the end all be all. but fretting over a few db here and there will get you nowhere anyway. Just don't go looking for single digit numbers or even numbers in the teens with it. If that's important to you, look elsewhere.
post #51 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

This is your lucky day. I'm too old to argue on the internet also. tongue.gif
They are numbers posted by Data-Bass.

Here's their graphs for the FV15HP in one port mode.

Thanks for the link, BeeMan458. This confirmed my hunch that the Data-Bass numbers you posted are test results of maximum output at various frequencies, and not a frequency response measurement. As such, these are not in any way comparable to our published FR specs for the E-Sub or Fathoms.

It's important to acknowledge that all subwoofer manufacturers and DIY designers operate under the same laws of physics and that a subwoofer's size sets certain hard limits of achievable performance. More aggressive designs push very close to those limits with lots and lots of power, careful processing and highly capable drivers, but there is always another level of performance that can be more easily reached by going with a larger design. With the Fathoms and the E-Subs, we have successfully created compact subwoofers which not only maximize output and extension in their size class, but also maintain linear behavior and are reliable. But, they are relatively compact, sealed designs, so they can be at a natural disadvantage in the overall output game against larger, often ported, designs. (We haven't figured out how to bend the laws of physics, either). smile.gif

Anyone seeking to find the right subwoofer combination considers size, cost, performance and even cosmetics in that decision. Performance not only comprises output capability, but also fidelity and feature content. If a subwoofer (or pair, or more) has enough output and extension for a room and a listener's desires, then you can check that box and start looking at fidelity, features, cosmetics, size and everything else. Having a bunch of extra output capability that you won't ever use becomes secondary to the other factors.

Just my opinion, of course... your mileage may vary.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
Edited by msmith_JL - 2/11/14 at 10:05am
post #52 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post

Msmith,

I really want a stealth box!

Well, what are you waiting for? smile.gif Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
post #53 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

...and not a frequency response measurement.

No fair! You asked me a much different question regarding max output numbers, not frequency response measurements. Here are my in-room measurements:

10Hz to 150Hz, frequency measurements, no smoothing applied:



10Hz to 150Hz, spectrograph, no smoothing applied:



Quote:
]Just my opinion, of course... your mileage may vary.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Thanks! As I posted, I'm not here to get into it with a factory rep. I gave my information and will let it stand on it's own merits.

Best regards in return
Thomas Nobody

(on the internet, private people are wise in maintaining a bit of anonymity)

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/11/14 at 9:44am
post #54 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Thanks! As I posted, I'm not here to get into it with a factory rep. I gave my information and will let it stand on it's own merits.

Best regards in return
Thomas Nobody

(on the internet, private people are wise in maintaining a bit of anonymity)

I think he was just saying that your information wasn't comparing apples and apples, and went into why... What else is there to "get into?":rolleyes:

 

I gave a funny (some might say lame) quib earlier. 

 

JL Audio are indeed like the Tesla Roadsters of Subwoofers. No one puts more technology into their subs (definitively) NOBODY. However, the end result might not be the best fit for many (some might argue most) people. I'll let the factory rep prove me wrong... I might even "get into it" with him... I haven't decided. Price is the largest concern.

 

However, I won't put a different sub/amp in my car for aftermarket. <---- that's a period. 

post #55 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post

I think he was just saying that your information wasn't comparing apples and apples, and went into why... What else is there to "get into?

A stupid online argument that does nothing but clog up a thread with trash-talk?

I did amend my comment as his comment impugned my comment by asking for max information and then falling back on frequency response measurements, two different horses. Fortunately, I have real world frequency measurements that back up my real world usage data which unequivocally back up my comments with empirical testing data.

I don't get into it with factory reps as their position is to defend and sell their products and I don't begrudge them this point. I have no dog in the fight to defend but if asked, I will defend the two dogs we have.
post #56 of 71
Quote:
I have no dog in the fight to defend but if asked, I will defend the two dogs we have.
I thought subwoofers were cats. smile.gif
post #57 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post


I thought subwoofers were cats. smile.gif

No, llamas... Can't buy just one, impossible to train 'just right,' and everyone else thinks it's a complete waste of money. 

post #58 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I thought subwoofers were cats. smile.gif

Okay, you have me on this point.........it depends on their mood.

Meow
post #59 of 71
BeeMan458, there was no intent to impugn your comments or measurements. Each of those measurements is useful and valid. They just illuminate different things and can't be directly compared against our ground plane measurement.

Your spectrogram of the Rhythmik sub is an in-room measurement (after Room EQ, I presume), as opposed to the ground-plane measurement that our FR spec is based on. This is what I was commenting about initially.

You subsequently posted the Data-Bass numbers. Not being clear on what these numbers were, I looked at them and correctly guessed they were not FR numbers, either. This was later confirmed after you posted the link to the Data-Bass site.

The in-room FR plot you posted is indeed impressive, but can't be compared directly to our ground-plane measurement. We would need to measure the other subs, in your room, after EQ to have a true apples-to-apples situation.

No harm, no foul. I just wanted to make sure everyone understood what these various measurements were, and what they weren't.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
Edited by msmith_JL - 2/11/14 at 1:28pm
post #60 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

No harm, no foul. I just wanted to make sure everyone understood what these various measurements were, and what they weren't.

(EQ'g provided by Audyssey MultEQ XT32/SubEQ HT, in-sub amplifier provided PEQ and REW to guide final efforts.)

Out of respect, I posted both ground plane and in room measurements in an effort to make sure "not" to confuse the issue as was indicated by comparing ground plane to ground plane measurements. For succeeding in confusing the issues, my apologies. The intent of posting this information (ground plane and in-room measurements) is to allow for an apple-to-apple comparison as measurement in one room is not indicative of measurement in another room but a measurement in a room, based on one's EQ'g skill level, is a reasonable indication of what another equally skilled person will be able to get in their room, using similar EQ'g methods.

Quote:
Best regards,

Yes, I too wish you well.

Thomas

(see how easy life is when conversations of this nature doesn't spill over into an unnecessary online argument)

(being too old has it's advantages and again, I prefer not to get into it with factory reps. In my opinion, it would show very bad on my part if I were to do so)
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