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Validty of blind testing - Page 12  

post #331 of 355
I hope the OP got the info he was seeking.
post #332 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Please provide us with documentation on an equal level with that which I have already provided such as an article in a well-known audio publication (HFN&RR), professional journal (JAES), on a web site (www.pcabx.com)., or even just in this thread.

Currrent score: Arny 4, Amir 0.
That link doesn't work Arny.

Of course not as a direct link.

I told you earlier that you could find it on the Wayback machine.

I guess that means that you can't find the Clark AES aritcle, either. :-(
post #333 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I hope the OP got the info he was seeking.

I think the OP got exactly what he was expecting...and then some

are we done here yet? I think so...considering the number of reports received...
post #334 of 355
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I hope the OP got the info he was seeking.

I wanted to know if the citations made in my initial opening post were at all valid. It appears not. I did not expect this discussion to drag on to 12 pages, but any discussion on this is appreciated, so don't stop on my account.

At least I offered some excellent entertainment via AVforums. biggrin.gif
post #335 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post

Perhaps you would have more luck if you offered to do the testing at their place, rather than at yours.

In fact, I always offer to visit them, up to a 2-hour drive away. I do this because if they come to my home and can't tell which [whatever] is which, they'll claim my system isn't "revealing" enough as an excuse.

--Ethan
post #336 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I hope the OP got the info he was seeking.

I think the OP got exactly what he was expecting...and then some

Only if he got some help with that forum in Zanzibar.

Quote:
are we done here yet? I think so...considering the number of reports received...

Yup, no surprises.
post #337 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

In fact, I always offer to visit them, up to a 2-hour drive away. I do this because if they come to my home and can't tell which [whatever] is which, they'll claim my system isn't "revealing" enough as an excuse.

--Ethan
Exactly how most are done at their homes. The Zipser test was at his house in Florida. Nousaine traveled lots of places to do those tests. The test Chris performed or try to, and posted to AVS, was at Mike's custom built listening room.
post #338 of 355
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Only if he got some help with that forum in Zanzibar.
Yup, no surprises.

Who cares? You don't even bother answering my PMs. rolleyes.gif It is South Africa, not Zanzibar.
post #339 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I think the OP got exactly what he was expecting...and then some

are we done here yet? I think so...considering the number of reports received...

it is a lively debate. what do you have against it?
post #340 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Only if he got some help with that forum in Zanzibar.
Yup, no surprises.

Who cares? You don't even bother answering my PMs. rolleyes.gif It is South Africa, not Zanzibar.

I only answer emails asking new questions. I already answered you once about that forum.
post #341 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Only if he got some help with that forum in Zanzibar.
Yup, no surprises.

Who cares? You don't even bother answering my PMs. rolleyes.gif It is South Africa, not Zanzibar.
And you don't sing me love songs, you don't send me flowers anymore.
post #342 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

Just so I'm clear. Is it really being suggested that when taking a DBT, our brain could subconsciously push us towards not hearing a difference?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Absolutely.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

Suggested in post #277, yes. Backed up by any evidence, no.

Thanks. I guess I'm not surprised, that's a variety of the same technique used by masters of all types of belief related "woo".

So basically it's the same tactic used by anti-science folks everywhere. Rather then provide positive proof of their position, they attempt to shoot holes in the science which disputes their beliefs. Somehow they think by succeeding it some how means their belief is true. Of course even if they were to successfully refute the science, the burden of proof still lye's with them.

 

Maybe some drug company ought to complain about the tests of their products, being blind, interfering with the efficacy of their drugs.

post #343 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

But that implies that sighted testing is accurate to some degree, no? And DBT is just more accurate.

To this degree only: a person can establish themselves as a more reliable difference-detector than average , i.e., a true 'golden ear'. This for example is the basis fo Harman's 'trained listener' subject pool.

It means their 'guesses' at differences are more likely to be correct than the average listener's.

It doesn't give them a free pass to act as if every difference they claim to hear, must be real (certain sound engineers I can name act this way....as do virtually all audiophile reviewes a.g. Mikey Fremer, who I don't doubt has good discriminating ears)

And typically none of 'us' know, on this side of the computer if 'they', on that side, are really 'trained' listeners. They can claim to be such. Plenty of audiophile claim to have golden ears...I won't necessarily believe them, without some supporting evidence like, I happen to know for a fact that they've taken listener training, or.... they show me trustworthy DBT results. wink.gif

Even then, if the claim is really extraordinary, trained listener or not, skepticism is the more rational response absent blind test and measurement results.
post #344 of 355
If I challenged you to a "triple blind test", that would be like a triple dog dare and you'd have to put your tongue on the cold flagpole. tongue.gif
post #345 of 355
I think this thread has out lived its stay, say good night mrs calabashes.
post #346 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post

In fact, I always offer to visit them, up to a 2-hour drive away. I do this because if they come to my home and can't tell which [whatever] is which, they'll claim my system isn't "revealing" enough as an excuse.

--Ethan

Nousaine used to do the same: take the test to the claimant. And some here at AVSF did it for Mike Lavigne. Anyone tired of this thread but wanting more -- and wanting an example of how human nature can deny, deny, deny what it doesn't want to be true -- should go look up *that* episode.

EDIT: got the name wrong...corrected now.

And here's the thread part I and II

http://www.avsforum.com/t/918365/james-randi-s-attack-on-high-performance-audio/0_100

http://www.avsforum.com/t/941184/observations-of-a-controlled-cable-test/0_100
Edited by krabapple - 2/6/14 at 2:51pm
post #347 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I expect any page now we'll be down to debating whether cause and effect are real or an illusion.

they result from the observer's interference, of course.

And since time may be a mental construct not corresponding to an actual dimension of any n-dimensional universe, cause and effect lose their meaning ('cause the cause cannot be shown to precede the effect)

WHEEE!
post #348 of 355
Classic example of audiophile hoo-hah here, trying to explain away inconvenient DBT results:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/941184/observations-of-a-controlled-cable-test/0_100#post_12265204
Quote:
Don't be discouraged by the results, many of these kinds of listening tests are amazingly INSENSITIVE to subtle sonic differences, and the fact that you thought that you were hearing things under the sighted informal sessions before the formal session really doesn't mean much, the formal portion literally changes the way your brain works and 'analyzes' the music. Thus, you may have been hearing what you thought you heard during the initial sighted sessions, and then later, you literally could no longer do so, your brain was running in a different mode than it was at first!

but later, a response from some authority on the *validity of blind testing*.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/941184/observations-of-a-controlled-cable-test/100_100#post_12271345

and requirements for a highest-sensitvity DBT

http://www.avsforum.com/t/941184/observations-of-a-controlled-cable-test/300_100#post_12671960

Quote:
If you really want highest sensitivity, first you have to train the listeners. Train, train, train, and give them full knowledge.

Then let them try DB trials, with feedback (i.e right vs. wrong ID). Allow them to do open trials for practice (but not for test results, obviously). Always ID the two test conditions even in the blind trials, only blinding the choice of 'X' in the ABX test.

All trials have to be clicklessly switched at the listener's demand with low latency.

This is what test after test has shown to provide the absolute most sensitivity to very small changes in auditory stimulii.

Any of this looking familiar, nvidio?
Edited by krabapple - 2/6/14 at 3:38pm
post #349 of 355
Sounds like the stress defense to me, Krab.
post #350 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Sounds like the stress defense to me, Krab.

Jon Risch's babble about formal and informal brain modes? Yeah. JJ shut him down pretty well in the response I linked to.
post #351 of 355
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Please provide us with documentation on an equal level with that which I have already provided such as an article in a well-known audio publication (HFN&RR), professional journal (JAES), on a web site (www.pcabx.com)., or even just in this thread.

Currrent score: Arny 4, Amir 0.
That link doesn't work Arny.

Of course not as a direct link.

I told you earlier that you could find it on the Wayback machine.

I guess that means that you can't find the Clark AES aritcle, either. :-(

Not taking sides here you both have some good points in this thread. ,You guys are killing me ! Can't stop laughing. This thread is interesting at times when it's not vitriolic or off topic . I will once again provide the links from post 154 to the original PC ABX test site and the ABX Scrapbook web pages archived in ~2007 @the Wayback Machine these links are very easy to find with Google it took much less than a minute .
OTOH I'm not sure that bing could find them although I do like win 7x64 and 8.1 just fine. I also like Linux Ubuntu for some things also.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070815054647/http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_scra.htm


http://web.archive.org/web/20070813001013/http://www.pcabx.com/
Edited by tubetwister - 2/7/14 at 3:56am
post #352 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

Quote:
Quote:

OTOH I'm not sure that bing could find them although I do like win 7x64 and 8.1 just fine.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070815054647/http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_scra.htm

Umm, you're killing me! ;-)

Arny in 1982:



Leonard Feldman was a great gentleman and pretty reasonable to talk to.

versus

Arny in 2005:



Kinda surprising that the guy who invented the Internet while a Microsoft Vice President (or something like that!) can't master a simple search.... ;-)

Edited by arnyk - 2/7/14 at 4:00am
post #353 of 355
I know you know how to find it Arny.... I'm surprised some other folks for whatever reason didn't find it it jumped right out of Google !
It's like you told me a while back do some research ! biggrin.gif
Google usually beats the heck out of the Dewey Decimal System in a library . Must be at least a generation or two that draws a blank if you mention it.
Edited by tubetwister - 2/7/14 at 4:06am
post #354 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

I know you know how to find it Arny.... I'm surprised some other folks for whatever reason didn't find it it jumped right out of Google !
It's like you told me a while back do some research ! biggrin.gif

I wonder if a free lifetime subscription to Bing isn't part of the exit package at MS!

If you really screw up, maybe they give you two of them. ;-)
post #355 of 355
thank you

some posters are going too far: please take note
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