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Sony TV business on its final way out? - Page 3

post #61 of 108
Former Sony Fan Boy:

Purchased a 25" Sony XBR set that sported S-Control and an integrated Composite/audio interconnect.
Almost no other Sony product offered S-Control or the new interconnect. Sony dropped the ball.

Purchased a Sony 32" WEGA tube set. It sported a horizontal distortion that could not be eliminated despite several
attempts by Sony. Gave set away.

Purchased a 60" Sony rear projection set that needed several replacement display engines and then
blew out its power supply. Sony had no spare parts so they shipped me a basic 52" LCD display that works just fine.

Apparently Sony lost the ability to produce a quality high end product that worked in the real world.

Don't get me started about its betrayal of all those consumers who bought into SACD.

Let's call it what it is: Bad Management!
post #62 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feirstein View Post

Former Sony Fan Boy:

Purchased a 25" Sony XBR set that sported S-Control and an integrated Composite/audio interconnect.
Almost no other Sony product offered S-Control or the new interconnect. Sony dropped the ball.

Purchased a Sony 32" WEGA tube set. It sported a horizontal distortion that could not be eliminated despite several
attempts by Sony. Gave set away.

Purchased a 60" Sony rear projection set that needed several replacement display engines and then
blew out its power supply. Sony had no spare parts so they shipped me a basic 52" LCD display that works just fine.

Apparently Sony lost the ability to produce a quality high end product that worked in the real world.

Don't get me started about its betrayal of all those consumers who bought into SACD.

Let's call it what it is: Bad Management!


Bad management is what I have saying all along. And its because of bad management and bad business decisions that Sony finds itself in trouble. Sad really because its a long fall from what they once were. I think Sony had its last really good year in 2012.
post #63 of 108
All TV makers should be worried, the general public views the TV as an appliance and when it doesn't break you don't replace it. Don't expect the Chinese to dominate in a no profit business, they are not stupid and will move to products where there is profit to be made. As will the Japanese and the Koreans. Will the last surviving TV maker please turn off the light.
Vizio may be the last man standing...
post #64 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post

All TV makers should be worried, the general public views the TV as an appliance and when it doesn't break you don't replace it. Don't expect the Chinese to dominate in a no profit business, they are not stupid and will move to products where there is profit to be made. As will the Japanese and the Koreans. Will the last surviving TV maker please turn off the light.
Vizio may be the last man standing...


tenthplanet,

with Vizio's prices you are probably right. They may be very well the last company standing. Sorry but I would dread that. frown.gif
post #65 of 108
There are American shoe companies that make shoes in Vietnam for nothing and sell them for a premium and make alot of money in the process.

Why couldn't an American company do the same with OLED?

Apple has alot of money. Could they do such a thing? Will the Apple TV monitor EVER happen?
post #66 of 108
Wow! Apple must be paying everyone off to be quiet.

If I was Apple I'd build the TV monitor plant close to China Beach and hire a few Vietnam Veterans to run the place.

Apple + Vietnam may be the weapon needed to stop LCD fascism.
post #67 of 108
I think I have finally hit a nerve with LCD fascism.

If Sony is getting out of the TV business--how many Japanese companies will still be in the TV business 5 years from now?

Is it time to start the death prayer vigil for Samsung and LG?

Apple has so much money. Are people afraid to talk about them?
post #68 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood 
I think I have finally hit a nerve with LCD fascism.

If Sony is getting out of the TV business--how many Japanese companies will still be in the TV business 5 years from now?

Is it time to start the death prayer vigil for Samsung and LG?

Apple has so much money. Are people afraid to talk about them?
Lets talk about Apple _

Steve Jobs wanted to be Sony
http://www.sonyrumors.net/2011/10/11/steve-jobs-wanted-apple-sony/

..and he wanted Sony VAIO's to run OS X.
http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/5/5380832/sony-vaio-apple-os-x-steve-jobs-meeting-report

post #69 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood 
I think I have finally hit a nerve with LCD fascism.

If Sony is getting out of the TV business--how many Japanese companies will still be in the TV business 5 years from now?

Is it time to start the death prayer vigil for Samsung and LG?

Apple has so much money. Are people afraid to talk about them?
Lets talk about Apple _

Steve Jobs wanted to be Sony
http://www.sonyrumors.net/2011/10/11/steve-jobs-wanted-apple-sony/

..and he wanted Sony VAIO's to run OS X.
http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/5/5380832/sony-vaio-apple-os-x-steve-jobs-meeting-report



Wow! After reading these 2 articles I keep wondering what might have been had Sony taken up Steve Job's offer and what might have been if they had teamed up. frown.gif
post #70 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Dead Brand Walking?!

"Sony to shutter two-thirds of its US stores"

FEBRUARY 26TH, 2014 AT 3:49PM ET

http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/26/sony-stores-closing/

"Sony Electronics is closing 20 of its 31 US-based store locations, the Japanese consumer electronics giant announced this afternoon......


Dead Brand Walking? I don't think so. Just another cost saving measure. They aint the only one's closing stores, seems like a lot of companies are these days and a bad economy don't help either. Sony will be ok.
post #71 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Dead Brand Walking? I don't think so. Just another cost saving measure. They aint the only one's closing stores, seems like a lot of companies are these days and a bad economy don't help either. Sony will be ok.

Of course, the decision to close 2/3 of the stores can't be read as "we are serious about making our TVs the center of our CE strategy and so we intend to keep retail spaces to feature them."

It can only be read as "we are moving toward small, mobile devices, and our store strategy as currently constituted does not fit with that, especially as we get rid of PCs, which, incidentally, are way more mobile than TVs."

The writing is on the wall for Sony's TV division. When someone in upper management actually reads it is another matter.
post #72 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Dead Brand Walking? I don't think so. Just another cost saving measure. They aint the only one's closing stores, seems like a lot of companies are these days and a bad economy don't help either. Sony will be ok.

Of course, the decision to close 2/3 of the stores can't be read as "we are serious about making our TVs the center of our CE strategy and so we intend to keep retail spaces to feature them."

It can only be read as "we are moving toward small, mobile devices, and our store strategy as currently constituted does not fit with that, especially as we get rid of PCs, which, incidentally, are way more mobile than TVs."

The writing is on the wall for Sony's TV division. When someone in upper management actually reads it is another matter.


And I am sure the Sony haters will be dancing in the streets if Sony does get out of the tv manufacturing business.
post #73 of 108
Sony hater here with dancing shoes at the ready. biggrin.gif The part that's a shame is it's happening just as they were on the precipice of upending arguably the FALD contender for best PQ (the Sharp Elite). It would be a trifecta, though, of a similar scenario playing out all across Japan. Pioneer followed by Panasonic (they're not any better off than Sony, even though they have some sets scheduled to be released later this year) and pretty soon Sony.
post #74 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Sony hater here with dancing shoes at the ready. biggrin.gif The part that's a shame is it's happening just as they were on the precipice of upending arguably the FALD contender for best PQ (the Sharp Elite). It would be a trifecta, though, of a similar scenario playing out all across Japan. Pioneer followed by Panasonic (they're not any better off than Sony, even though they have some sets scheduled to be released later this year) and pretty soon Sony.

Well you better hold onto those shoes because Sony ain't going anywhere for awhile.
post #75 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Well you better hold onto those shoes because Sony ain't going anywhere for awhile.
I guess we need to know two things.
1. What Do you consider awhile
2. Are you talking about entire sony company disappearing at once.

Sony is bleeding cash on there tv division for most part of a decade. They don't manufacture tvs from start to finish. Sony PC are being axed. They will be forced to get rid of unprofitable products or slip into bankruptcy.
post #76 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason626 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Well you better hold onto those shoes because Sony ain't going anywhere for awhile.
I guess we need to know two things.
1. What Do you consider awhile
2. Are you talking about entire sony company disappearing at once.

Sony is bleeding cash on there tv division for most part of a decade. They don't manufacture tvs from start to finish. Sony PC are being axed. They will be forced to get rid of unprofitable products or slip into bankruptcy.

'Slipping into bankruptcy' sounds so refined and genteel, doesn't it...

I'm afraid that the reality is far more abrupt and traumatic (despite government hand-outs).

-fafrd
post #77 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

And I am sure the Sony haters will be dancing in the streets if Sony does get out of the tv manufacturing business.

Personally, I am not a Sony hater. I can't speak for anyone else here. But I have:

1) Spoken highly of the new XBR 950B
2) Owned a used an ES series receiver as the nerve center of my home theater for much of the 2000s (though not currently)
3) Owned a Vaio computer for several years
4) Think the Xperia phones are a very strong Android option

I'm just not passionate about the company, so I can be objective about where I think the TV business is going
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason626 View Post

Sony is bleeding cash on there tv division for most part of a decade.

10 years of losses. In a row.
Quote:
They don't manufacture tvs from start to finish.

Haven't made flat panels (of any size or quantity) at any point during the entire flat-panel era. That speaks volumes.
Quote:
They will be forced to get rid of unprofitable products or slip into bankruptcy.

So, it's pretty clear Sony understands its situation and has no intention of slipping into bankruptcy. I mean, it's not Sharp, not even a little.
post #78 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

And I am sure the Sony haters will be dancing in the streets if Sony does get out of the tv manufacturing business.

Personally, I am not a Sony hater. I can't speak for anyone else here. But I have:

1) Spoken highly of the new XBR 950B
2) Owned a used an ES series receiver as the nerve center of my home theater for much of the 2000s (though not currently)
3) Owned a Vaio computer for several years
4) Think the Xperia phones are a very strong Android option

I'm just not passionate about the company, so I can be objective about where I think the TV business is going
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason626 View Post

Sony is bleeding cash on there tv division for most part of a decade.

10 years of losses. In a row.
Quote:
They don't manufacture tvs from start to finish.

Haven't made flat panels (of any size or quantity) at any point during the entire flat-panel era. That speaks volumes.
Quote:
They will be forced to get rid of unprofitable products or slip into bankruptcy.

So, it's pretty clear Sony understands its situation and has no intention of slipping into bankruptcy. I mean, it's not Sharp, not even a little.


I agree with you on a lot of your points rogo. I just don't believe it will get to the point where Sony will close its doors, not going to happen. Sony may be bleeding right now due to low tv sales but I believe they can fix it. 2015 will tell the story. I was pissed about them selling off their Viao business but when I looked at it it made sense. Why keep making something when it aint selling and costing you money? Makes no sense so they got rid of it. Will their tv venture follow suit? I believe if they keep doing what they are doing it will. 4K is not the answer to their problems as I have said before, they should have learned that with 3D. What Sony should do is turn towards OLED. If any company can make a successful run with OLED Sony can. They have the means, capability, and money to do it. With OLED they can give Samsung a run for their money. But if their banking on 4K to save their falling tv manufacturing business then they are in trouble, big trouble. To me 4K is the new flavor of the month just as 3D was and it wont help Sony out one bit, not with all the manufacturers getting in on the 4K craze.
post #79 of 108
Did you forget that sony and Panasonic had a joint venture to come up with OLED manufacturing method that could produce yields and be affordable. They failed and went there seperate ways.
post #80 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Sony may be bleeding right now due to low tv sales but I believe they can fix it. 2015 will tell the story. 4K is not the answer to their problems as I have said before, they should have learned that with 3D. What Sony should do is turn towards OLED. If any company can make a successful run with OLED Sony can. They have the means, capability, and money to do it. With OLED they can give Samsung a run for their money. But if their banking on 4K to save their falling tv manufacturing business then they are in trouble, big trouble. To me 4K is the new flavor of the month just as 3D was and it wont help Sony out one bit, not with all the manufacturers getting in on the 4K craze.

In terms of 4K being the new flavor of the month and 3D being the last flavor of the month, I see it a bit differently.

3D was a complicated sales proposition. It was complicated to use, it caused some people headaches, it required new content to deliver anything truly worthwhile and 'better', it essentially needed the entire cinema and video industry lined up behind it which quickly sputtered (witness ESPN), and it required a significant investment in educating the consumer (which was pretty successfully achieved, in my opinion).

4K is a different matter. It sells itself. It essentially comes 'for free' on LCD technology (both from the perspective of investments in R&D as well as manufacturing cost). The consumer is already very well educated on resolution - more is better. It will offer immediate benefits through upscaling while the content industry starts to make more and more 4K content available. It is hitching its caboose to a powerful disruptive force in the industry, namely streaming, so the first 4K content is likely to be available much more quickly than it was in the case of 3D (which really never got out of the niche category).

No one has a crystal ball, but several years from now we are going to look back and see that either 4K displays rolled out and have taken over the entire high-end of the market (my bet) or they have not and 1080p remains the primary display resolution at the high-end as well as the only resolution available on content even through streaming (your bet).

There's not much value in arguing who may be placing the better bet now - we can take a raincheck on that until 2016/2017. But the important point is what this bet means for the major flat-panel industry players including Sony.

If you are right and 4K ultimately proves to be a flash in the pan and flops, you are correct that OLED is probably going to emerge as a significant technology for 1080p panels in the future. But imagine if Sony makes all of the investments required to execute that OLED-centric strategy and I turn out to be right. OLED probably cannot deliver 4K, may not be able to deliver very large panels, and LCD has proven a painless ability to do both while nipping away at weaknesses like dark-level performance and motion blur which each passing generation...

For Sony to bet on OLED in the way you are suggesting could amount to a Company-wide bet that does threaten Sony's very existence if the bet fails, and I believe the fact that Sony has already announced an intention to spin-off the TV division indicates that they are aware of this fact, have decided that is a bet they are not comfortable making, and so they will leave the TV division to see if they can find another investor willing to finance that or another strategy.

I'm afraid I believe Art is right. The emergence of 4K means LCD will likely take over the world. Without breakthroughs that have not yet materialized, OLED will be relegated to the small-size (55" and below) high-end of the market (and even for that they are going to have challenges getting costs down on the volumes that opportunity will offer).

We should also not forget that Sony has demonstrated an ability to deliver some darned good LCDs (just not at competitive prices). I found this recent review surprising and encouraging for Sony's future: http://www.trustedreviews.com/sony-kdl-50w829_TV_review#tr-review-summary

-fafrd

p.s. and I also believe that Panasonic's decision to kill its plasma business right at its technological peak is further confirmation that the entire flat-panel industry recognizes that the 4K train has left the station and ain't never coming back...
post #81 of 108

You discuss 3D as different from 4K here.  While I fundamentally agree, there are some small mistakes IMO:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

it required new content to deliver anything truly worthwhile and 'better',


"Truly" worthwhile?  This is usually argued to be the same case with 4K.
 

Quote:

it essentially needed the entire cinema and video industry lined up behind it

 

Another content issue: same with 4K according to most.

 

Quote:

which quickly sputtered (witness ESPN)

 

Sure but the ESPN give-up speaks for dedicated 3D TV channels.....quite a different paradigm than 3D movies.  Not going into all the reasons why, but suffice it to say that it's just not a big enough win in sports.  Particularly when they released the games late.  IMO, not a cleanly thought out idea, and not an indictment of 3D TVs.

 

Fafrd, you tend to write as a conversational stream of consciousness.  While this isn't necessarily bad and is often welcome, we all have our own writing styles afterall, the shear volume of what you write makes it difficult for me to parse all the points.

 

 

post #82 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 

Fafrd, you tend to write as a conversational stream of consciousness.  While this isn't necessarily bad and is often welcome, we all have our own writing styles afterall, the shear volume of what you write makes it difficult for me to parse all the points.



^^ give it a try smile.gif
post #83 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 

Fafrd, you tend to write as a conversational stream of consciousness.  While this isn't necessarily bad and is often welcome, we all have our own writing styles afterall, the shear volume of what you write makes it difficult for me to parse all the points.

 

^^ give it a try smile.gif

 

ok, ok.  LOL..... :)

post #84 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

You discuss 3D as different from 4K here.  While I fundamentally agree, there are some small mistakes IMO:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

it required new content to deliver anything truly worthwhile and 'better',


"Truly" worthwhile?  This is usually argued to be the same case with 4K.

I've spent some time with a Sony rep who walked me through variuos examples of upscaled 1080p video on a Sony UHD panel (forget which one). Viewing distance is another question, but if seated close enough to appreciate it,I am convinced that upscaled 1080p on a UHD panel is more worthwhile than 2D-3D conversion done on the panel (which my LG LCD does).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

it essentially needed the entire cinema and video industry lined up behind it

Another content issue: same with 4K according to most.

For UHD (including HDR, wide-golor-gamut, rec.2020, etc...), I agree. On the other hand, purely from the point of view of 4K resolution alone, much of that increased resolution is already available or at least can immediately be available using existing equipment (versus 'true' 3D which required an additional camera), and more importantly, upscaled 1080p offers immediate benefits that I believe are more apparent than 2D-3D conversion (as already stated).

Maybe the more important point is that, while 3D required the entire chain to support it for any real benefit, the 4K/UHD initiative seems to be getting structured in a way that delivers a series of incremental benefits each of which can build on another. So upscaling 1080p is immediate. Once there is 4K streaming available, upconversion is no longer needed from certain sources. When eventually there is 4K Blueray (if ever biggrin.gif) there will be less compression and also hopefully some HDR/wide gamut information that can be exploited by panels that have the necessary capability...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

which quickly sputtered (witness ESPN)

Sure but the ESPN give-up speaks for dedicated 3D TV channels.....quite a different paradigm than 3D movies.  Not going into all the reasons why, but suffice it to say that it's just not a big enough win in sports.  Particularly when they released the games late.  IMO, not a cleanly thought out idea, and not an indictment of 3D TVs.

Didn't mean to indict 3D TVs, just the entire 3D industry initiative.

There will probably never be OTA 4K/UHD broadcasts either, but the image quality of an ESPN 1080i/60 on a 4K set probably will look marginally better than on a 1080p set (and certainly better than trying 2D-3D conversion on the panel).

For movies, the changes required for the movie industry to support 'true' 3D were greater that they are for 'true' 4K resolution (most new movies already have sufficient resolution, and old film movies can be much more effectively scanned to 4K resolution than they can be made 3D. Moving to 'true' UDH with a different color gamut, etc, is a more similar (and even more extreme) change for the movie industry, but the benefits of increased 4K resolution alone as well as the capability of upscaling means that this change is much less 'all-or-none' as it was in the case of 3D. Movie makers can upgrade their resolution and eventually to full UHD whenever they want without worrying about missing out on all of the benefits of the evolution to 4K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Fafrd, you tend to write as a conversational stream of consciousness.  While this isn't necessarily bad and is often welcome, we all have our own writing styles afterall, the shear volume of what you write makes it difficult for me to parse all the points.


Guilty as charged. I've got to do something with all of the enthusiasm I have for these new FALD 4K panels, so I channel it into these verbose replies on the forum. I'll try to woek on being more concise going forward...

-fafrd
post #85 of 108
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

upscaled 1080p offers immediate benefits that I believe are more apparent than 2D-3D conversion (as already stated).

Yes.  I have a few times verified this on a Sony 4K.  However, the 4K Samsung I happened to see once, looked terrible.  Doesn't mean anything.....I'm sure it's a setting thing.  But I've been a fan of Sony's upscaling algorithms (SD->2K as well!!!) for some time now.

 

post #86 of 108
4K FALD with Passive 3D.
post #87 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post


Yeah, of course - everything I have stated is predicated on an assumption of an appropriate basic level of competence and execution...

-fafrd
Edited by fafrd - 2/28/14 at 2:10pm
post #88 of 108
post #89 of 108
Just found this article on HDVTTEST regarding Sony loss of 4K market share: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/global-4k-201402273647.htm

-fafrd
post #90 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

I agree with you on a lot of your points rogo. I just don't believe it will get to the point where Sony will close its doors, not going to happen.

Nowhere do I ever suggest Sony is closing its doors. (Except of course on the 20 retail stores it has announced it is closing.)
Quote:
I was pissed about them selling off their Viao business but when I looked at it it made sense. Why keep making something when it aint selling and costing you money? Makes no sense so they got rid of it. Will their tv venture follow suit?

They have lost money in TVs in 10 years out of the last 10 years.
They have lost money in TVs in 13 of the past 14 quarters.
Quote:
What Sony should do is turn towards OLED. If any company can make a successful run with OLED Sony can. They have the means, capability, and money to do it. With OLED they can give Samsung a run for their money.

To build an OLED fab that can make TVs is a multi-billion-dollar investment. To make OLED TVs profitably requires mastering either LG's technology (which is patent protected) or printables (which they just spent a year developing tech for and failed to get anywhere).
Quote:
But if their banking on 4K to save their falling tv manufacturing business then they are in trouble, big trouble. To me 4K is the new flavor of the month just as 3D was and it wont help Sony out one bit, not with all the manufacturers getting in on the 4K craze.

Yes, so basically your own analysis concludes that Sony should abandon the TV business.
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