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Inuke vs. CV 5000 - Page 2

post #31 of 141
btw, a nominal 4 ohm load at 2200 watts requires 93.8 volts. 93.8 volts into a 2.67 ohm load gives about 3300 watts. so in all fairness to the inukes shutting down, they were being run at 50% over capacity.

that's nominal too. if actual re on the driver is 3.5 and that is where it is in the region where the content was hitting hard (low teens/single digits) the net load would be around 2.33 ohms and power would be 3777 watts. ouch.
post #32 of 141
From what I can tell the cv-5000 can run on a 240v circuit.. The IEC connector is only rated for 16amps but bursting on a 20amp 240v circuit should work. What I can't find any info on is whether the power supply is auto ranging(Can it just be plugged into a 240v source as is)

20amps 240v = 4800 watts right?

I don't have the guts to try it. Carp?

Think we could get John Playerson to be the crash test dummy?
post #33 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

that's actually a very good test that you have conducted there.

nice job!


Thanks man - it was fun, but then got a little scary there at the end. smile.gif
post #34 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

btw, a nominal 4 ohm load at 2200 watts requires 93.8 volts. 93.8 volts into a 2.67 ohm load gives about 3300 watts. so in all fairness to the inukes shutting down, they were being run at 50% over capacity.

that's nominal too. if actual re on the driver is 3.5 and that is where it is in the region where the content was hitting hard (low teens/single digits) the net load would be around 2.33 ohms and power would be 3777 watts. ouch.


Yikes!! No wonder they sounded very angry!!
post #35 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Oh yes, I've very familiar with Pop's setup smile.gif I was at his place a couple weeks or so ago. He was tripping breakers about as often as I do - which is to say 2 or 3 times total during a loud night of demo's.


Archaea posted a very cool video of our weekend up there, 4 rooms in 3 days. Pop's is the first part of the video. Great time! smile.gif

I found a previously unknown video of your testing, taken when you guys weren't looking:
post #36 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

From what I can tell the cv-5000 can run on a 240v circuit.. The IEC connector is only rated for 16amps but bursting on a 20amp 240v circuit should work. What I can't find any info on is whether the power supply is auto ranging(Can it just be plugged into a 240v source as is)

20amps 240v = 4800 watts right?

I don't have the guts to try it. Carp?

Think we could get John Playerson to be the crash test dummy?


eek.gif

post #37 of 141
lol...
post #38 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

eek.gif


Me too. I do think that would solve the breaker tripping problem and really let you test/compare that amp. After researching the IEC 320-c19 connector, that's about the only safe option to stay within the limits of it....if the amp can do it.

I'll email Cerwin Vega and see what they say. Coincidently they are owned by Gibson which is local but I don't think that will help get any answers.
post #39 of 141
I just called their tech support and the guy was just down the street so he started asking me questions. It was actually a pretty cool conversation....

He said that it is safe and the connector will handle 30amp 120v service without worry. He said they've never had a problem and reccommend 30amp with a rv adapter or even a new cable with a 30amp twist lock plug end. He wasn't sure about the 240v switching and is askinig their engineeriing department and is supposed to call me back.

I'll probably add a 30amp drop and get an RV adapter to test regardless of what happens on the 240v question.
post #40 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Ok, so today I level matched the inuke 3000dsp and CV using frequency sweeps and matching them up. I made sure to use the same 3 subs for both sweeps and for the comparison. I wanted to see which amp would clip first.
I'm not sure what level matching has to do with it. You should set up the proper gain structure instead and then measure the output with the receiver volume at max.

How do you know you weren't clipping due to to your gain controls set wrong? The iNuke has an input sensitivity of .75 volts (manual, pg 10) and the CV of 1.42 volts.

You could use the Rane method for setting levels. Maximum input signal means turn your receiver volume to max for the test.
Quote:
Setting Power Amplifiers
If your system uses active crossovers, for the moment, set all the crossover output level controls to maximum.

Much confusion surrounds power amplifier controls.

First, let's establish that power amplifier "level/volume/gain" controls are input sensitivity controls. (no matter how they are calibrated.) They are not power controls. They have absolutely nothing to do with output power. They are sensitivity controls, i.e., these controls determine exactly what input level will cause the amplifier to produce full power. Or, if you prefer, they determine just how sensitive the amplifier is. For example, they might be set such that an input level of +4 dBu causes full power, or such that an input level of +20 dBu causes full power, or whatever-input-level-your-system-may-require, causes full power.

Amplifier input sensitivity controls do not change the available output power. They only change the input level required to produce full output power. Clearly understanding the above, makes setting these controls elementary. You want the maximum system signal to cause full power at the amplifier.

Many loudspeakers are not designed to reproduce full power sine waves or pink noise test signals for extended, or sometimes even short periods of time. This is especially true of multi-way loudspeaker systems which are designed to handle extended periods of loud music or speech signals which are considerably less demanding than sine or pink noise signals. Paging systems that use 70/100 volt distribution transformers are more likely to be OK when driven with full power sine and pink noise signals for a little while.

To set the amplifier controls to achieve full power with your maximum input signal use the following procedure. If your system uses active crossovers, for the moment, set all the crossover output level controls to maximum.

1. At the amplifier, disconnect the loudspeakers that cannot handle demanding sine and pink noise test signals, or for those confident the test signal will not harm their loudspeaker(s), warn everyone you are about to make a LOT of noise! Can you say "ear plugs?"

2. Turn the amplifier sensitivity controls all the way down (least sensitive; fully CCW; off).

Warning: even at this minimum sensitivity setting, many amplifiers still produce considerable levels. Since all upstream level controls are currently set to deliver the maximum signal, use an upstream level control that is easily and accurately reset to its current position to turn down the test signal. This is most likely the console's main output level.
3. Turn on the first power amplifier.

4. Return the system level to its previous setting at the console's main output to make sure the signal at the device driving the amp is again delivering max (unclipped) signal.

5. Slowly rotate the amplifier sensitivity control until clipping just begins. Stop! This is the maximum possible power output using the maximum system input signal. In general, if there is never a bigger input signal, this setting guarantees the amplifier cannot clip. (Note: if this much power causes the loudspeaker to "bottom out," or distort in any manner, then you have a mismatch between your amp and speaker. Matching speakers and amps is another subject beyond this note.)

6. Repeat the above process for each power amplifier.

7. Turn the test signal off, reconnect the loads to the amplifiers if need be.
post #41 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

How do you know you weren't clipping due to to your gain controls set wrong?


The input signal was not clipping on the inuke if that means anything.
post #42 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

The input signal was not clipping on the inuke if that means anything.
You already said it was. confused.gif
Quote:
The inuke clip light blinked 2 db's before the CV every time.


From the iNuke manual:
Quote:
All channels feature . . . clip LEDs to indicate when the signal is distorted and you need to reduce the input signal.
post #43 of 141
I got a call back from the tech at Gibson Pro Audio(Cerwin-Vega) after he spoke with the engineers. The SMPS/power supply in the CV-5000 is not auto ranging so it can not be hooked up to 240V service. He said I could rewire the power supply internal connection for 240V but didn't have the specifics.

30amp 120V is the recomended connection from Gibson Pro Audio(Cerwin-Vega)

Carp sorry for the off topic in your thread. I just wanted to follow-up on the resolution.
post #44 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

You already said it was. confused.gif
From the iNuke manual:


No, I was talking about the output clip light (top right below) on the inuke, the input (bottom right below) never clipped and never came very close. I'd say the highest I saw the input was around 6 db's under clipping.





post #45 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

I got a call back from the tech at Gibson Pro Audio(Cerwin-Vega) after he spoke with the engineers. The SMPS/power supply in the CV-5000 is not auto ranging so it can not be hooked up to 240V service. He said I could rewire the power supply internal connection for 240V but didn't have the specifics.

30amp 120V is the recomended connection from Gibson Pro Audio(Cerwin-Vega)

Carp sorry for the off topic in your thread. I just wanted to follow-up on the resolution.


Not at all, I appreciate it. Makes me wish I would have gone with a 30amp line but it's not that big of a deal since the breaker has NEVER tripped when the CV is not clipping.
post #46 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

No, I was talking about the output clip light (top right below) on the inuke, the input (bottom right below) never clipped and never came very close. I'd say the highest I saw the input was around 6 db's under clipping.
Per the manual, the output meter only shows if the DSP is clipping something. It is an output meter for the DSP. Did you have any EQ in the DSP? If you didn't have any EQ, then did you have the limiter turned on? Did the LED clip lights ever come on?

The main question I'm trying to find out is how did you determine where to set the gain controls on the iNuke amp?

Edit: I have two nu6000's and one nu3000 sitting here, but none of them are the DSP model.
post #47 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Per the manual, the output meter only shows if the DSP is clipping something. It is an output meter for the DSP. Did you have any EQ in the DSP? If you didn't have any EQ, then did you have the limiter turned on? Did the LED clip lights ever come on?

The main question I'm trying to find out is how did you determine where to set the gain controls on the iNuke amp?

Edit: I have two nu6000's and one nu3000 sitting here, but none of them are the DSP model.



No, no eq and no limiter on either. I was watching for clipping on my laptop with the dsp software like in the picture above, I wasn't watching the actual amps. For the CV I had to watch the amp since it has no software like the inuke does.

I set the gain controls on the amp to match the output of the CV amp using frequency sweeps on the onmimic.
post #48 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I set the gain controls on the amp to match the output of the CV amp using frequency sweeps on the onmimic.
If you get a chance, I'd be curious what the results are when you set the gain controls using a methods like Rane's.
post #49 of 141
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

If you get a chance, I'd be curious what the results are when you set the gain controls using a methods like Rane's.


Me too, and thanks for that BTW. The thing is..... I'm a little gun shy about doing any more testing like that with the inukes. You should have heard how loud those fans were, in was unnerving! eek.gif

That and the fact that they shut down (well, not really shut down since I could hear the fans blowing like crazy but the audio cut out for 10 seconds or so) makes me nervous that I'm going to blow them up.

So, really I have my answer already. No way I could switch from the CV to the inuke6000dsp to power my 6 subs up front since the CV has been powering all 8 for the past year and has been clipped to hell and back and has never skipped a beat and the fan never increases in volume either. I would be too nervous to push the inuke and I like to know that I can't hurt anything no matter how stooopid I get. smile.gif
post #50 of 141
dynamic EQ carp

mmmmm

dynamic EQ...




The iNuke 12,000 is a coming. That'll destroy your 5000 watt Cerwin Vega, and it supports 2 ohm stereo. Course you'll need a new power line run. mad.gif

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU12000DSP-2000-Watt-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00HRKWS0Q/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1392325649&sr=8-3&keywords=inuke+nu12000dsp

Start saving your pennies.
post #51 of 141
With a 2 ohm load, the output power is severely limited after a short period. Instead of a 2.67 ohm load, you could test each amp with a 4 ohm load.

If you haven't, you might want to read the translated review that was in the German Tools 4 Music magazine.
Quote:
So, really I have my answer already.
I feel like we are going in circles. biggrin.gif I say you can't have an answer unless you are using proper gain setup; you say you have an answer since the input meter didn't clip. Since both amps clearly have a different spec for input sensitivity, but the same voltage gain (36 dB), then level matching by using the gain controls should put one amp at a disadvantage. If you have enough voltage to drive the CV 5000 to full power, then I would think you have too much for the iNuke. Likewise, if you have enough to drive the iNuke to full power you might not be driving the CV 5000 to full power.

I think I'm going to order one of these to check out. I'll probably get the iNuke nu6000DSP. Anyone want to buy it from me in a few weeks? Having two iNuke 6000's for 8 subwoofers is better than 1 iNuke 12000 if you are going to have the subs spread around the room. This lets you set the delay differently for 4 different locations.
post #52 of 141
Except the 6000 units aren't spec'd to run run two ohm stereo loads frown.gif (basically 6000s are two 3,000 units is one chasis already bridged), while the 3,000 and the 12,000 models can run 2 ohm stereo.


DD - you think you'd actually sell it? wink.gif
post #53 of 141
Carp verified earlier in this thread that he has dual 4 ohm voice coils wired in series for 8 ohm's per driver. With two nu6000's, he would put two drivers parallel per each channel for a 4 ohm load.

Order placed. Amp should be here tomorrow or Monday. Cheaper than Sweetwater, too. tongue.gif

My office is getting crowded with too much audio gear biggrin.gif:
Two Hsu VTF-2 subs
One dual opposed 12" DIY sub
Two iNuke nu6000 amps
iNuke nu3000 amp
Hafler 9210 amp
Dayton SA1000 amp
Face Kinetic 4 channel amp
QSC RMX1450 amp
One Solid State Logic SSL Alpha Link MX 16 channel DAC with MadiXtreme card
One Steinberg MR816x 8 channel DAC
Four Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ drivers
Two Eminence MFW-15 drivers
Four ELT525 speakers
post #54 of 141
DD,

Carp wants to run six of the subs up front (2.67 ohm load per 3) and 2 in the back.


At least at the current time --- wink.gif



I've been working on convincing him to buy a few more of the same subs from the now discontinued line at the sale price SI is currently offering. cool.gif

18 18's sounds like a terrific whole comfortable number.
post #55 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Carp wants to run six of the subs up front (2.67 ohm load per 3) and 2 in the back.
If running two drivers per channel, you can obviously put 6 up front and 2 in the back with an easier to driver 4 ohm load per channel. wink.gif What am I missing? He wants the amp very close to the subs?
post #56 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

The thing is..... I'm a little gun shy about doing any more testing like that with the inukes. You should have heard how loud those fans were, in was unnerving! eek.gif

That and the fact that they shut down (well, not really shut down since I could hear the fans blowing like crazy but the audio cut out for 10 seconds or so) makes me nervous that I'm going to blow them up.

Personally I'd worry more about toasting voice coils with that much power for more than a few sec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The iNuke 12,000 is a coming. That'll destroy your 5000 watt Cerwin Vega, and it supports 2 ohm stereo. Course you'll need a new power line run. mad.gif

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU12000DSP-2000-Watt-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00HRKWS0Q/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1392325649&sr=8-3&keywords=inuke+nu12000dsp

Start saving your pennies.

I'd get two 6000DSP's for less money and the flexibility of 4 ch, unless you don't have the space.
post #57 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Carp wants to run six of the subs up front (2.67 ohm load per 3) and 2 in the back.
If running two drivers per channel, you can obviously put 6 up front and 2 in the back with an easier to driver 4 ohm load per channel. wink.gif What am I missing? He wants the amp very close to the subs?

just one simple fact:
He was only considering buying one 6000 (not two) to power his front six and selling his CV-5000, and making a bit of green in the trade. Hence the whole testing in the first place - to see if one 6000 could compete with his CV-5000 on output - but without a 6000 to test with he used his 3000 with half the drivers bridged - which should be the same as a 6000 with six drivers.


I feel like we are going in circles here. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
post #58 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


I'd get two 6000DSP's for less money and the flexibility of 4 ch, unless you don't have the space.

Unless you want to drive six of the SI at 2.67 ohm on a single amp like carp has said he'd like to do.
post #59 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I feel like we are going in circles here. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
Yes, but then you brought up the 12000 and I said two 6000's would be better - which they are. In other words, two nu6000's for all 8 subs are better than a 12000 for 6 subs and another amp for the remaining 2 subs. cool.gif

(now at 127 degrees on the second rotation of the circle)
post #60 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Yes, but then you brought up the 12000 and I said two 6000's would be better - which they are. In other words, two nu6000's for all 8 subs are better than a 12000 for 6 subs and another amp for the remaining 2 subs. cool.gif

(now at 127 degrees on the second rotation of the circle)

Yup.

Personally, I'd keep the CV5k for the front six and .... wait maybe I missed a part. redface.gif
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