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Antimode 8033S-II Question and Best Practice Advice

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Hello all, I am hoping that I could get some feedback on integrating two Antimode 8033S-II into my system.

I currently have two Rythmik CI 1510 with PEQ600XLR3 sealed subs that I just finished building and have purchased two Antimode 8033 units to go with them. My thoughts for getting two was to utilize one 8033 per subwoofer as I have a Yamaha CX-A5000 pre pro with two sub outs.

After receiving the units I realized that the best way to integrate the 8033s was to utilize a Y cable to connect both subs up to one 8033 and calibrate them together.

My dilemma is that I want to run XLR cables to the subs as they have these type of inputs and eliminate a slight hum my rca cables seem to be picking up. So I talked to a local audio store and showed them the schematic from VLS on how to make the RCA to xlr cable and they can make it for me.

I initially thought that I could then use an XLR Y splitter to then connect both subs but the store owner said he would not recommend that as it might lower the impedance to much for the 8033.

So here is my plan, please offer any advice or guidance as most members here who have an antimode know far more that me regarding this outstanding device.

Steps;

1. Calibrate first antimode with both subs connected via RCA and a Y cable to the O output on the anitmode

2. Swap out and calibrate second anitmode exactly the same as the first (mic position, sub gain, ect.)

3. Reconnect first antimode using RCA to XLR adapter and run to sub 1 (connect antimode to sub out 1 on Yamaha pre pro)

4. Reconnect second antimode using RCA to XLR adapter and run to sub 2 (connect antimode to sub out 2 on Yamaha pre pro)

5. Run YPAO on receiver

6. Adjust sub gains up or down and rerun YPAO until it sets sub output to 0db (or close)

7. Use pink noise generator and SPL meter to do final adjustment of speaker levels

Does this make sense? and will it keep the subwoofers from cancelling each other out null wise?

Thank you for any help and/or advice you folks can provide. I will say that integrating the antimode into my system has made a dramatic positive change to my system and cannot imagine not having one from this point forward.

Smitty
post #2 of 22
The 8033S II is designed to handle two subs. Each Anti-Mode independently measures and EQ's what ever is attached to it and that's going be dependent on each subs location.

Run Anti-Mode for one set of subs first. Second, run the second Anti-Mode for the second set of subs. Third, run the EQ program in the Pre-Pro.

It reads as if you have a ground loop as opposed to your subwoofer cable causing the problem. My guess, there's a dissimilarity in the ground where the subwoofer is plugged in and where the subwoofer cable connects to either the Pre-Pro or the Anti-Mode. My understanding, anything under twenty-five feet and there's no benefit XLR vs RCA connectors.

I ran three subs off of one 8033S II.

For your subs, I cannot recommend using Anti-Mode as it cuts off everything below 20Hz. Below are two graphs, one with Anti-Mode 8033S II and one with Audyssey XT32.

W/Anti-Mode 8033S II, no smoothing applied:



W/Audyssey XT32, no smoothing applied:



Because of this information, I can no longer recommend Anti-Mode 8033S II. All I can respectfully suggest, sell the Anti-Mode units, sell your Pre-Pro and amplifiers and buy a XT32/SubEQ HT capable AVR.

Us? I boxed up the Anti-Mode 8033S II, the Marantz SR5007, upgraded the subs and bought a Denon AVR4520CI what has dual independent subwoofer Pre-Outs and is XT32/SubEQ HT equipped and took our listening experience to a whole new level. As to cost, I charged everything and like most, I'm making monthly payments on the CC.

As to lowering the impedance, that's not going be a problem. If you don't know already, independently set the gain on the subs and take SPL measurements at the MLP where the measuring microphone is going be placed. At the MLP, with AVR provided pink noise going through the one sub while the other sub is turned off, turn the gain up until you're getting a close to consistent 75dB. Do the same with the other subwoofer. Now you're ready to run Anti-Mode.

Quote:
Does this make sense? and will it keep the subwoofers from cancelling each other out null wise?

That's going be dependent on subwoofer placement.

I could not believe that Anti-Mode was so restrictive. Again, in the beginning as much as I loved the benefit of Anti-Mode, from personal experience, I cannot recommend Anti-Mode. Hope the above experience helps with your questions.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/19/14 at 7:30am
post #3 of 22
Does 8033 Cinema also cut off sub 20hz content? I have disabled the sub sonic filter, I'm sure you can do that on the S-II as well? The only LED that is on, is the power LED. Default is with both lift 25 & 30 hz lit, which means sub sonic filter is applied as well.
post #4 of 22
You do know that there is a setting in antimode (that is default after calibration) that is a subsonic filter right?! It helps prevent DIY subs from hitting their limits. You have to manually go in and turn it off.

I had antimode and I had no roll off. In fact you even choose a <25hz boost.

Read your manual before selling
post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Does 8033 Cinema also cut off sub 20hz content? I have disabled the sub sonic filter, I'm sure you can do that on the S-II as well? The only LED that is on, is the power LED. Default is with both lift 25 & 30 hz lit, which means sub sonic filter is applied as well.

Turning the subsonic filter off does not help with below 20Hz content nor does it help measurements but in our case, turning the subsonic filter off, made the measurements worse. In my thinking, because of the restrictive nature of Anti-Mode for <20Hz content, Anti-Mode is a "BUST" and considering the price of Cinema, one is better putting their money into a XT32/SubEQ HT capable AVR. Better results, less electronics in the chain, less to cause ground loop problems, fewer cables, looks better not having little boxes all over everything with more blue lights and wall warts.

The short version, as an owner of an Anti-Mode 8033 II and a XT32/SubEQ HT capable AVR, Anti-Mode is a "TOTAL" bust on many levels and it has no socially redeeming qualities.

(that's as strong as I can get)

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post #6 of 22
I can only chalk that up as user error
post #7 of 22
The alternative is a £9000 Anthem av pre-power..
Quote:
one is better putting their money into a XT32/SubEQ HT capable AVR

Change from av pre to avr? No thanks
Edited by fatbottom - 2/19/14 at 6:34am
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

The alternative is a £5000 Anthem av pre-power..
Change from av pre to avr? No thanks
Your antimode is fine. Once you turn off subsonic filter it will work perfectly. Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. Keep your pre/pro and you antimode. You are doing it right.

They are better options than selling and spending a boatload on a new setup.
post #9 of 22
Price of Cinema, $395.00 USD/2ea/$790.00USD and each handles a single subwoofer. Two are needed and they give less than desirable results and adds unnecessary complications to the subwoofer signal chain.

Price of a Denon X-4000 with XT32/SubEQ HT on Amazon, $1,299.00 USD and if you check with JD of AVR audio sales, you'll expectedly get an even better price.

Sell what you have, step-up to new technology, obtain better EQ results and depending on how much you receive in exchange for your used gear, you'll more than likely put money back into your pocket.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/19/14 at 7:33am
post #10 of 22
Quote:
2.6. Multiple Subwoofers
Having multiple subwoofers reproducing the same signal (dual mono) will result in a smoother
response. Anti-Mode can be used with any system allowing you to use corner placement of your
subs. Connect the Anti-Mode to the signal going into each sub, and calibrate them together. When
calibrated together, the nulls created by one sub are filled in by the other sub. Anti-Mode takes this
into account, creating a smoother overall response than if the subs were calibrated separately.
If you want to reproduce low frequencies in stereo, you need either two Anti-Mode 8033's or one
Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core. Stereo at low frequencies is generally not needed, because low
frequencies are omnidirectional and directional cues are determined from harmonics and other
aural information. It is usually better to use the dual mono arrangement instead of stereo to get a
more even response.

Also why on earth would I change from Lexicon to Denon? rolleyes.gif
post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Also why on earth would I change from Lexicon to Denon? rolleyes.gif
Because since he has xt32 it's the end all be all and if you don't get it your wrong wrong wrong.
post #12 of 22
Yeah I've read a couple of people that say you should choose a avr based solely on what type of EQ it has rolleyes.gif I'd do it the old way, run each with EQ disabled, either in pure or through bass management mode only which sounds best. My Yamaha 671 doesn't have the best EQ by far...but so what?

As to OP, I guess best method is working out best place for both subs, then connct both to one anti-mode, run calibration (so you get flattest summed bass) then run AV amp calibration. Check crossovers and levels manually with a dB meter. Not a sub expert, and only have one sub per system.
post #13 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Price of Cinema, $395.00 USD/2ea/$790.00USD and each handles a single subwoofer. Two are needed and they give less than desirable results and adds unnecessary complications to the subwoofer signal chain.

Price of a Denon X-4000 with XT32/SubEQ HT on Amazon, $1,299.00 USD and if you check with JD of AVR audio sales, you'll expectedly get an even better price.

Sell what you have, step-up to new technology, obtain better EQ results and depending on how much you receive in exchange for your used gear, you'll more than likely put money back into your pocket.

-

Beeman 458

While I respect your opinion and value your knowledge regarding subwoofers, I must repectfully disagree on your stance. My system consists of the Flagship pre pro from Yamaha the CX-A5000, Two ATI AT 2000 series amps equaling 11 channels at 200W each, Klipsch upper echelon Reference series speakers (11 of them to be exact), Oppo BDP-95, 2 Rythmik subs I built over many months, and other assorted audio gear. It has taken me years to be able to afford and purchase this equipment which I greatly appreciate, so selling and starting over is not an option (although it would be 1/10 the cost). I guess my question boils down to;

By calibrating each antimode connected to both subs via RCA Y cable, then seperating them and going a single xlr connection from each antimode into a single sub. Would that cause issues. My logic says once each antimode is calibrated exactly the same connected to both subs, then when seperated individually the calibrated settings should remain the same and the subs will sound no different.

Make sense?

Respectfully

Smitty
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

I guess my question boils down to;

By calibrating each antimode connected to both subs via RCA Y cable, then seperating them and going a single xlr connection from each antimode into a single sub. Would that cause issues. My logic says once each antimode is calibrated exactly the same connected to both subs, then when seperated individually the calibrated settings should remain the same and the subs will sound no different.

Make sense?

First things first, I have no knowledge regarding Yamaha's YPAO programming.

We went with the Denon 4520CI so I could get our hands on XT32/SubEQ HT, separate dual sub pre-outs and an amplifier section that precluded the need for outboard amplifiers and despite being 9.2, the 9.2 Pre section, my understanding, is the guts of the 11.2 Marantz AV8801. Not too shabby. And I'm not knocking Yamaha or pushing Denon.....I'm just having an online conversation and posting information for a better understanding of my position.

Regarding your question, unless XLR are the only hookups to the subwoofers, other than my not seeing a need for XLR connectors and the mention I made regarding ground loop issues, I would calibrate each Anti-Mode separately as each subwoofer location has it's own interaction with the acoustics in the room. One calibration location, will not work for both subwoofers as the acoustic interaction for differing locations are totally different from each other and will require different/separate EQ'g.

I see you have the PEQ600XLR3 amplifier, which has a RCA LFE connection. For convenience, that too is helpful. Have you tried the PEG function? Has it helped with your dilemma? What happens to the buzzing sound when you disconnect the subwoofer cable?

Now the rub, I know you nixed what I suggested and on that point I'm fine but now one has to deal with any built in Pre-Pro EQ software issues and unless one has dual separate subwoofer Pre-Outs, when it comes to final EQ'g efforts, from personal experience, even with dual 8033S IIs, the individual is going be fighting the Pre-Pro software that sees the subwoofer signal in mono terms. In my opinion, the main tools one has left to save the day will be REW to be able to physically see the interaction of the acoustics in the room and hopefully a continuous phase potentiometer on the subwoofer to deal with phase/distance problems that will show themselves. With my limited understanding of things, that's about the best I can do; your system to my system/experience. Maybe somebody else will weigh in with cogent information that will give you more insight than what I shared.

Quote:
Respectfully

Smitty

In return, my pleasure,

Thomas

(we more than likely have similar Klipsch speakers and the FV15HPs, my understanding, have the same driver and similar amplifier but without the XLR connectors)

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/19/14 at 8:41am
post #15 of 22
Thread Starter 
Beeman

I agree with the pre pro eq causing issues as I have allways disabled it on my pre pros. the YPAO is just setting the distance, gain, and phase. I did as you suggested and ran two 8033S-II units each one from a dedicated sub out on my Yamaha as I purchased 2 to start. I then ran the calibration for each sub individually. It sounded good, but then I used one 8033 with a y splitter into both subs and ran calibration on them and they sounded better. I am using REW and learning its layout and just doing initial tests till I get the hang of it. I have tweeked the PEQ on the rythmiks to boost some bands as the 8033 only cuts not boosts bands to my understanding. One thing I have found on the Rythmiks is I seem to have to have my gain set at about 2 o'clock to get them to match up spl wise to my Klipsch RF-63's. In you experience, did you have to turn your gain past 12 o'clock on your subs to get them matched? I only ask because I spent a lot of time on these and the last thing I want to do is overdrive or clip them.

Thank You

Smitty
post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

I did as you suggested and ran two 8033S-II units each one from a dedicated sub out on my Yamaha as I purchased 2 to start. I then ran the calibration for each sub individually. It sounded good, but then I used one 8033 with a y splitter into both subs and ran calibration on them and they sounded better.

---intentionally expanded---

I am using REW and learning its layout and just doing initial tests till I get the hang of it.

Can you post an unsmoothed graph, using 5dB lines of definition, 10Hz to 120Hz?

Quote:
I have tweeked the PEQ on the rythmiks to boost some bands as the 8033 only cuts not boosts bands to my understanding.

If I might suggest that you do the opposite and the peak to the left of the dip, use the PEQ to pull it down as opposed to jacking a dip up.

Quote:
One thing I have found on the Rythmiks is I seem to have to have my gain set at about 2 o'clock to get them to match up spl wise to my Klipsch RF-63's. In you experience, did you have to turn your gain past 12 o'clock on your subs to get them matched? I only ask because I spent a lot of time on these and the last thing I want to do is overdrive or clip them.

For verification purposes, I just checked the "volume" on each of our subs and they are set at 10:30.

(for clarification purposes, Gain is the potentiometer for the PEQ and Volume is the setting for what most, who don't have PEQ would call gain. a bit confusing, hence the clarification so as to hopefully remove any confusion)

Quote:
Thank You

For what, two like minded guys having a conversation?

...wink.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/19/14 at 9:58am
post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 
Beeman

I meant the volume control my bad. I forgot that is what its labeled. Please disregard my mention of "Gain" as that is specific to the PEQ section of the sub amp. So is 2 o'clock to unreasonable a level to level match the front speakers?

Smitty
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

I meant the volume control my bad. I forgot that is what its labeled. Please disregard my mention of "Gain" as that is specific to the PEQ section of the sub amp. So is 2 o'clock to unreasonable a level to level match the front speakers?

I had to edit my comments also. tongue.gif

As to your sub and how you have the volume set, it's going depend on the cubic footage of the room and how far the MLP is from each of the subwoofers. The higher the volume is set, the less headroom the subwoofer has. Are you using a handheld sound meter to set the volume of the subwoofer at the MLP?

We have a 3300^3 room with openings to large adjacent spaces. The first subwoofer is place nearfield and is three feet from the MLP and the second subwoofer is about ten feet from the MLP. I think we have the same driver and similar amplifier that you have and each of the subs volume controls are set to 10:30.

If it helps, below are placement images I took last night:

The first image is from the MLP looking to the subwoofer ten feet away. The second image is of the nearfield subwoofer at the back of the chair, three feet from the MLP.

...

The second image shows all three openings in the room. Closest opening into the kitchen. Next opening behind the crocheting wife, the kitchen sink pass through and at the end of the room, entry way opening.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/19/14 at 2:48pm
post #19 of 22
Thread Starter 
Yes, I am using a Radio Shack SPL Meter, set it at 80, C weight, Slow response. I have read that to set the SPL level between your front speakers and subwoofers you would want to take measurements at 1 Meter away from the subs. I have always measured from the MLP, then taken additional measurements at my alternate MLP and averaged them out. I will say that even though you "Hear" a lower volume from the sub, the meter measures pretty high, gotta love ultra low frequencies. I did run multiple tests with my Yamaha YPAO and subs and adjusted the Gain on the Yamaha and the volume on the subs so that the Yamaha Sub level was as close to 0 db as I could using the sub volume for fine tuning. There are mulitple theries on wether to use the gain on the AVR/Pre Pro or the sub to get the levels between the subs and the LCR the same. Which method did you use?

Smitty
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

Which method did you use?

Matching both subs, sound meter one meter from the sub, is gain matching your subwoofers. Matching separate output using a sound meter at the MLP is level matching the subwoofers.

In the AVR subwoofer menu, I set the levels control to the subwoofers at +/-0 dB and in the case of Rythmik subwoofer amplifiers, use the "volume" control to match the output of each sub woofer at +70dB to +73dB. When both subs are playing pink noise, the total equals ~+75dB to +78dB. Then I run Anti-Mode and finally Audyssey or in your case YPAO. After the AVR room EQ program is run, using REW as a guide, I set all speakers to small, subwoofer to LFE = 120Hz and all speaker crossovers to 80Hz.

Final adjustments are made at the AVR speaker menu level, adjusting subwoofer and center channel up and down to steer (create) a +/-3dB flat graph. Since we have the same driver and similar amplifier, I'd expect us to have similar results but I can't say how Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT translates over to Anti-Mode and YPAO.

After the subwoofers are dialed in flat, I experiment with a "House Curve." In our case, for regular cable provided programming, I run both subs and the center channel +3dB hot. For blu-ray movie viewing, I add an additional +7dB to the subwoofer channel and to the CC channel I add in an additional +3dB. The mains and surrounds (we have a 5.2 system) I leave their settings alone. This gives us crazy good dialogue, sound effects and great, seat/floor/room thumping bass with the MVC set to -17.5dBfs.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/19/14 at 12:20pm
post #21 of 22
Thread Starter 
Beeman

Thanks for the info, thats pretty much exactly how I have done it. I think the reason for the high volume on the subs is I have a very large open area to the right of my system and an adjoining hallway going to the front door at the rear right of the room and stairs going upstairs at the rear left of the room. One thing I will say is that by utilizing the antimode it really helped tame such an open floor plan just running the calibration takes an average of 20 min and it runs through at least a dozen if not more sweeps. If you look at my profile you can get an idea of the room layout as I have some pictures posted. I usually try not to use the volume control on my subs past the 12 o'clock position but in this case less than 2 o'clock just seems lacking in output and the RF-63's overpower them.

Take Care

Smitty
post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

I usually try not to use the volume control on my subs past the 12 o'clock position but in this case less than 2 o'clock just seems lacking in output and the RF-63's overpower them.

That's why the need for a personal house curve above flat. Turning up the volume (gain) on the subwoofer reduces the headroom. Correcting the output at the level of the AVR subwoofer level menu, preserves headroom so you minimize the chance of bottoming or compressing; distortion.

Good luck and hope our interchange was found helpful.

Thomas

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