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1080p for under $700? Optoma HD25E or Benq 1070????

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
I currently have an Optoma HD65 with a few hundred hours. Great projector but i want to upgrade to 1080p. My budget is really around $700 which means using Amazon and Ebay. What are some other models in this price range? I just want to be sure it will be a noticeable improvement over the HD65. Thanks
post #2 of 14
The Acer H6510bd is often under $700.
post #3 of 14
Optoma HD131Xe, I strongly recommend this model over the Acer H6510bd or the sister model from viewsonic.

It really has to do with your preference, personally, I try to find deals on higher end products rather than get a lower end one in my price point. You could probably find a deal on a projector that runs between $800 and $900 and be happy with the improved performance.

I have tried out the Acer H6510bd and was very disappointed in its color and grayscale performance, try to find a model that is at least made for HT and has calibration in mind.
post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 
After further research, I ordered the Optoma HD131EX. I am hoping it will outperform my HD65.
post #5 of 14
please let us know what you think of it (I'm interested in this particular model as well)
post #6 of 14

I am also considering these two/three models (HD131Xe or HD25e and W1070).

It will be my second projector within the last two weeks: The ViewSonic PRO9000 was a utter disappointment and issue ridden crapjector. might just have been the model i got though...

 

Anyway, how do these projectors fare when it comes to RBE? It was easily noticeable on my PRO9000, so I really want a less RBE-prone projector next.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maconi View Post

Here's the color wheel info the the W1070 (RGBRGB wheel) thanks to velconti:

1080p24 - 192Hz - 3.2x (192Hz/60Hz=3.2)
1080p50 - 300Hz - 5x (300Hz/60Hz=5)
1080p60 - 240Hz - 4x (240Hz/60Hz=4)

Here's the color wheel info for the HD131Xe/HD25e/etc. (RGBCYW wheel) thanks to neo-1771:

1080p24 - 144Hz - 2.4x (144Hz/60Hz=2.4)
1080p60 - 120Hz - 2x (120Hz/60Hz=2)

It's possible the HD131Xe speeds up when set to 1080p50 (like the W1070 does) but no one has tested that yet to my knowledge.

To be fair, the wheel speed is a bit deceptive due to how they're made. The list above is the "effective" speed, not the mechanical speed. Mechanically the W1070 runs @ 2.5x (yes 2.5x, they round up when they say 3x and thus 6x, at least according to the testing done) and the HD131Xe runs @ 2.4x (maybe higher @ 50Hz, dunno yet). The W1070 can say that they run at "6x" (5x according to testing) due to the color wheel repeating colors (RGBRGB). The RGBCYW wheel isn't allowed to claim double the speed due to it not repeating the same colors.

So technically both the W1070 and HD131Xe run @ 2x mechnical speed @ 60Hz. Supposedly the repeating colors (RGBRGB) show less RBE than RGBCYW, although you'll hear conflicting stories depending on who you ask.

That's the reason why Optoma quit publishing their color wheel info, because most people want to hear that big number (6x or etc.) and if they published they were only 2x it would be an instant turn-off. They chose the RGBCYW wheel because it gives higher lumens and better contrast at the cost of color. Whether it causes more RBE or not I can't say for sure (haven't seen both projectors personally and stories on the internet are conflicting).

To be fair, a color wheel would have to be 27x to eliminate RBE completely. Given that it's impossible to reach that with a single-chip DLP all we can do (in this price range) is learn to live with it or wait a few more years for multi-chip DLP/LED/Laser/etc. prices to drop.

EDIT: Here's a nice post I stumbled upon that explains why companies choose the color wheels that they do:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494504/infocus-h8606hd-new-dlp-full-hd-3d-ready-isfccc/60#post_24108069

 

So both Optoma projectors feature a RGBCYW color wheel, while the BenQ has a more color-accurate, though less bright RGBRGB colorwheel, with the BenQ lowering the RBE effect by a factor of at least 2, thus being less prone to RBE.

However, is that difference worth it? Because if I consider the W1070, it still comes with two major downsides:

- Worse black performance (and contrast?)

- Noisy fans

 

I found this little video that compares the two (i think the HD25 is as loud as the HD25e and HD131Xe): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NLV-6JYWeA

 

While its not a perfect comparison and difficult to estimate, how itll fare ~1m above my head, I'm afraid itll annoy the hell out of me...

 

So has anyone compared the RBE effect of the two? Is there much of a difference at 120/144Hz between the two when it comes to RBE?

post #7 of 14
I own a W1070 and I'd say the video clip is pretty accurate: the fan isn't loud, but it's not particularly quiet. It's got a somewhat unusual tone to it, too.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the HD25e was even quieter than that video since according to here, it's a lower-wattage bulb than the HD25 in that video so I'd expect less heat. (Incidentally, the HD25 appears to have also been RGBRGB; unlike the HD25e/HD131Xe).

That said, with the W1070 ceiling mounted directly above us (just under 1m above our heads), none of us finds it distracting even in quiet scenes; the air conditioning fan is louder in that room.

As for rainbows: I'm pretty sensitive (to the point that I force my output to 50hz - at which I almost never perceive them; whereas at 24hz they drive me insane). At 24hz (on the W1070), we get a 192Hz spin-rate. At 50hz, it's all the way up to 300hz (and listening to the projector when changing resolutions, this wheel spin speed is audible and contributes a tad more to the noise).
If you're rainbow sensitive, 300Hz is going to make a serious difference compared to 144Hz: but only if you run at the right framerate. At 24hz, the two projectors are probably similar in this regard.

If your output device lets you choose refresh rate, then go for the W1070 if you're rainbow sensitive.
If you're stuck at 24p, then choose whichever better suits your room in terms of throw ratio: they're both known to be great projectors.
post #8 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post

I own a W1070 and I'd say the video clip is pretty accurate: the fan isn't loud, but it's not particularly quiet. It's got a somewhat unusual tone to it, too.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the HD25e was even quieter than that video since according to here, it's a lower-wattage bulb than the HD25 in that video so I'd expect less heat. (Incidentally, the HD25 appears to have also been RGBRGB; unlike the HD25e/HD131Xe).

That said, with the W1070 ceiling mounted directly above us (just under 1m above our heads), none of us finds it distracting even in quiet scenes; the air conditioning fan is louder in that room.

As for rainbows: I'm pretty sensitive (to the point that I force my output to 50hz - at which I almost never perceive them; whereas at 24hz they drive me insane). At 24hz (on the W1070), we get a 192Hz spin-rate. At 50hz, it's all the way up to 300hz (and listening to the projector when changing resolutions, this wheel spin speed is audible and contributes a tad more to the noise).
If you're rainbow sensitive, 300Hz is going to make a serious difference compared to 144Hz: but only if you run at the right framerate. At 24hz, the two projectors are probably similar in this regard.

If your output device lets you choose refresh rate, then go for the W1070 if you're rainbow sensitive.
If you're stuck at 24p, then choose whichever better suits your room in terms of throw ratio: they're both known to be great projectors.

Thanks a bunch for the info and quick reply! You were talking about ECO, right, just like in the video?

With my PRO9000, the fans also produced a high pitched sound along with its white noise... Please say it doesn't do that or the colour wheel @ 300Hz (150rpm) ^^

 

I'll be using it most of the time with my computer (80% movies, 20% games) and occasionally console games (nintendo, sony), too. So I can control the vertical frequency most of the time.

 

Anyways, is it possible to force frequencies above 60Hz via HDMI 1.4 with this projector? Like 100Hz, 120Hz, 180Hz or 300Hz directly? I'm not on top of the HDMI standard and whats the limitation exactly for 1.4, but did you test that yet? Would be good for more accurate frame time on screen (24fps @ 50Hz is suboptimal) and for the smoothest computer game experience ever :D

 

P.S. i noticed that the bulb of the w1070 is nearly twice the price of that for the hd25e or hd131xe... oh well, i just hope it doesn't die on me too quickly. I'm always short on money xD

post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post

Thanks a bunch for the info and quick reply! You were talking about ECO, right, just like in the video?
With my PRO9000, the fans also produced a high pitched sound along with its white noise... Please say it doesn't do that or the colour wheel @ 300Hz (150rpm) ^^

I'm using Smart-Eco (basically dynamic brightness)... fan noise is about the same as Eco.

The high-pitched color-wheel 'whine' at 300hz is very, very soft - I have to concentrate to notice it (but it is there!). But I'll re-iterate: no comments about noisiness from anyone quite yet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post

I'll be using it most of the time with my computer (80% movies, 20% games) and occasionally console games (nintendo, sony), too. So I can control the vertical frequency most of the time.

PC should be fine (even a 60hz refresh-rate does much better with rainbows than 24hz): and on a PC you can select 50hz regardless (even better).

But try as I might, though, my PS3 offered no ability to select 50hz; so double-check your consoles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post

Anyways, is it possible to force frequencies above 60Hz via HDMI 1.4 with this projector? Like 100Hz, 120Hz, 180Hz or 300Hz directly? I'm not on top of the HDMI standard and whats the limitation exactly for 1.4, but did you test that yet? Would be good for more accurate frame time on screen (24fps @ 50Hz is suboptimal) and for the smoothest computer game experience ever biggrin.gif

Dang, now you've piqued my interest! It's ceiling mounted with a long, old HDMI cable at present, but I've just plugged my laptop in to experiment.

At 1920x1080, I was limited to a maximum of 60hz (which, as above, beats out 24hz significantly in terms of color wheel speed). 50hz was also an option (even better).

Up to 120hz became available when dropping resolution (I just tried 1280x800) - here, 120hz was a-go:


(Pardon my blurry phone-camera pic wink.gif )

I can't tell you for sure if it'd be available at higher resolutions with another cable (it's several years old and rather long). Though I wouldn't count on 300hz being available over the HDMI implementation here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post

P.S. i noticed that the bulb of the w1070 is nearly twice the price of that for the hd25e or hd131xe... oh well, i just hope it doesn't die on me too quickly. I'm always short on money xD


The HD25 bulb used to be comparable in price (since it was the same wattage as the BenQ @ 240W); but both the HD25e and HD131xe are significantly cheaper (lower wattage @ 190W).

My pic above indicates 800 hours on my lamp, but there were an additional 300 or so before I upgraded firmware (which reset the timer) and it's still nice and bright. I suppose I can just hope to get anywhere near BenQ's 6000-hour estimate in Smart-Eco mode!
post #10 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post


But try as I might, though, my PS3 offered no ability to select 50hz; so double-check your consoles.
Dang, now you've piqued my interest! It's ceiling mounted with a long, old HDMI cable at present, but I've just plugged my laptop in to experiment.

At 1920x1080, I was limited to a maximum of 60hz (which, as above, beats out 24hz significantly in terms of color wheel speed). 50hz was also an option (even better).

Up to 120hz became available when dropping resolution (I just tried 1280x800) - here, 120hz was a-go:

(Pardon my blurry phone-camera pic wink.gif )

I can't tell you for sure if it'd be available at higher resolutions with another cable (it's several years old and rather long). Though I wouldn't count on 300hz being available over the HDMI implementation here.

the cables age probably isnt the limiting factor. Its a digital signal, so even if you use a HDMI 1.0 cable, it can still take HDMI 2.0 or whatever: The question however is, whether the built quality is good enough to transfer a higher frequency without issues... So if its a super cheap china cable with not even gold connectors, you might be out of luck. If you got high quality shielded copper cables with gold connectors, etc, your chances will be higher. Then there is the length: The shorter the better obviously. Lets say the cable is perfect in every way, we still have two more hurdles:

 

Can the bitrate for 1080p300 still be fitted in the HDMI 1.4 standard and does the projector understand the new format? I can force custom resolutions via the NVIDIA panel. That way, I got my TN panels to run at 70Hz instead of 60Hz. It looks like this:

 

P.S. may I ask how old you are? Hearing higher frequencies is easier when you are young and over time, you might not even hear above the 16kHz range. I'm 22 and have no issues hearing 18kHz (loud, clear and annoying). I can hear till ~19.5kHz actually, but at that point, the sound is already pretty quiet, so probably not an issue anymore

post #11 of 14
I'll see if I get an opportunity to experiment with refresh rates over the weekend and report back if I do. I still for some reason feel that 120hz is going to be our ceiling here (may be HDMI-spec related).

I'm also in my 20's, and have no issues hearing 18kHz based on my dog-whistle app! biggrin.gif
post #12 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post

I'll see if I get an opportunity to experiment with refresh rates over the weekend and report back if I do. I still for some reason feel that 120hz is going to be our ceiling here (may be HDMI-spec related).

I'm also in my 20's, and have no issues hearing 18kHz based on my dog-whistle app! biggrin.gif


I somewhat doubt your (or my) smartphone can properly produce high frequencies without distortions (17kHz+) ^^

I used Sennheiser HD 518 for my listening tests (paired with a Sound Blaster Z).

 

Anyway, I just ordered a W1070. :D

post #13 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBryant View Post

After further research, I ordered the Optoma HD131EX. I am hoping it will outperform my HD65.

I went from HD65 to HD25e (same difference as HD131xe). I’m pretty sure you will be HAPPY !!!

You should notice a benefit of 1080P right away, I did since I’m using HTPC with win7 desktop.
Tons of Lumens to satisfy any room configuration and very good 2D/3D performance. The fan noise even with dynamic contrast on HIGH (I don’t remember name) is not too bad.
The contrast/black level is about average for the price range. I went with N7 (natural grey) paint and it looks very good.
If anything there could be a problem with soft corners, depending on the copy you get and what you are using your projector for.
You might notice it when using it as PC desktop (browsing, reading text), however if you watch movies and/or play games you won’t even see it.
I’m surprised how well Optoma’s 3D is working (I’m using 2 RF Optoma glasses and 2 RF Optoma-knock offs). I didn’t buy the projector for it, but is very usable and
my family enjoys when we use it. For the price I think it is one of the best buys up there.

Also Optoma’s Customer Service is TOP NOTCH in case you will have a problem. Currently they are helping me out with my HD25e which lost its offset after they fixing soft corner issues.
post #14 of 14

My W1070 arrived today: RBE is still there, but much much muuuch less noticeable than what I got with the PRO9000.

 

I kinda want to buy the HD131Xe as well, to compare the two, but my budget wont allow it, so W1070 it is.

 

Compared to the PRO9000, it has a bit more noise (both image and fan-wise) and gets a whole lot hotter. Well, that was to be expected, but the PRO9000 became, like, lukewarm at best (bulbs suck!). With the W1070 i might be able to fry some eggs^^

 

Still, the menu is muuuch better and the image quality overall beats the ViewSonic by a longshot!

 

Bottom line: LED/Laser@1080p in the sub-2k category are just not worth it quite yet, though it looks promising. Maybe in a year or two! :)

 

For now, its remains a bulb based future!

 

 

P.S. still, that HD91 sure looks tasty!


Edited by Ceremony - 3/2/14 at 5:34am
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