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Anyone have the Sony DVP-NS999ES Yet? - Page 16  

post #451 of 689
Bob and I posted at about the same time. I think we are on the same page.

Regards,

Ian
post #452 of 689
One comment/question on black level with progressive out. I think that it is disabled no mater what the setting is on the menus (which is why it is grayed out when progressive is selected).

I am guessing they planned to have it toggle manually for progressive, wrote menus accordingly, then decided to deactivate it.

I noted you can turn it on or off when it is in interlaced mode, but when you switch back to progressive, it is grayed out (I interpret this as "always off" in progressive mode, but maybe it is "always on" and thats one of the culprits of the shimmering artifacts).

Can anyone confirm that changing the black level on/off in progressive (by switching to interlaced so you can change the setting, then back to progressive) makes any difference with the progressive picture? I tried this and saw no difference.

Thanks!
post #453 of 689
I didn't see any difference either Xphile. The shimmer was there whether it was on or off.

Yes Ian, this is a workaround. One that shouldn't have to be done on this $1000 player. It does work, though. The important this is to keep pushing Sony so we don't need workarounds.
post #454 of 689
Bob,

I'm trailing behind you by a couple of days due to my lack of free time. I played tonight with the first half of your discussion. Let me set some benchmarks and state some observations.

With ET, I have 2 sections of shimmer:

2733 to 2815

2824 to 2843

With progressive, here is something odd. If I let it play through both, the second section comes out clean the majority of the time . If after or into the second section I reverse back to the little guys feet, or anywhere within 2824 to 2843, there is a good chance I'll get shimmer in that second section. It's hit or miss. It can replay without any shimmer like a continuous through from 2700.

If I change out to interlace, shimmer is there 2733 to 2746, then falls out to a very mild case. It does not matter how the blacks are set. The second concern area does not react at all to reversing conditions, as it does in progressive.

I have not tried to get any improvement out of the poor interlace output. I put Diana Krall "Live In Paris" in and listened to it through my new speakers for the rest of the night - with a smile on my face. Good audio.
post #455 of 689
Yes, the audio is great! And as the player breaks in it gets even better!!

I do think you are seeing too much of the shimmer though. Especially if you're in interlace mode. If you are up to it, take the 999 in for an exchange. In your case I think you'll see a noticeable improvement. For whatever reason, it seems that your 999 is showing the problem worse than most others.

If you keep it or not is up to you. Some members are critical of the fact that I recommended using interlace mode as a work around. In fact, it's not really a work around. It's just using the interlace mode as Sony recommended in the manual and adjusting it to get the best picture you can. I'm getting as good a picture as I did in progressive. (The set is doing the 3:2 pulldown) If you get a great picture what difference does it make what mode you're in?

I'm not making excuses for Sony, mind you. I will continue to campaign to get this problem fixed. I don't understand why progressive mode is causing this shimmer. We ought to be able to use what ever mode we want.

Again, I have to say that even before I got the 999 I questioned how important progressive scan was with the TV being capable of the 3:2 pulldown. My older Toshiba was getting a great picture without p. scan. The Sony picture is even better. Some DVD owners report that the DVD player does a better job for them in p. scan. Everybody has their own idea of what's good for them. That's the bottom line. Everyone ultimatly has to make up their own mind.

I hope you don't give up on this player without at least trying another one. If the shimmer is bad enough that it bothers you on a new one, try setting it up in the interlace mode per my instructions. You may just find the video very good and the player worth keeping. Also, use the number I've provided earlier and call Sony. Tell them your concerns and push them to contact the engineers. I plan to call Sony again as soon as I enter this post. Even if the picture wouldn't be any better in progressive it should still not have any glitches!
post #456 of 689
Well, I just got off the line with Sony. After speaking with two reps I have an address I'm going to use to see if I can get some response. The main thing is to make Sony aware of the Progressive mode glitches. Then I'll keep pressing for some response if I don't get it soon. Both Reps I spoke with thought it would be a good idea for a quick fix from Sony. If I can have that kind of luck with the higher ups we may get one.

I spent the last three years as a quality facilitator for my employer. I worked hard to take care of quality issues brought up by our customers and other employees. Maybe I can get something done here. Audio engineers will be no different than any other engineers when telling them of a defect in a product they designed. They don't like to admit they made a mistake. Let's hope I can get through to them.
post #457 of 689
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Saylor

If you keep it or not is up to you. Some members are critical of the fact that I recommended using interlace mode as a work around. In fact, it's not really a work around. It's just using the interlace mode as Sony recommended in the manual and adjusting it to get the best picture you can. I'm getting as good a picture as I did in progressive. (The set is doing the 3:2 pulldown) If you get a great picture what difference does it make what mode you're in?

I'm not making excuses for Sony, mind you. I will continue to campaign to get this problem fixed. I don't understand why progressive mode is causing this shimmer. We ought to be able to use what ever mode we want.

Again, I have to say that even before I got the 999 I questioned how important progressive scan was with the TV being capable of the 3:2 pulldown.
hi bob.... i was talking to a video engineer at work, trying to better understand the differences between interlaced and progressive mode. i was confused by the fact that even if the dvd video is being converted to 24fps progressive, the monitor itself still needs to display regular old 29.97 interlaced video. here is a very short (and possibly butchered) digest of what he told me. it helped me understand the true benefit of a progressive signal:

in interlace mode, the dvd player puts out 29.97 frame per second interlaced video. there are two fields per frame (60 fields per second). when the frames are output, each field gets half of the available bandwidth.

in progressive mode, the dvd player removes the 3:2 pulldown. (this is the tricky part, and this is where artifacts can creep in). it then merges the video fields into 24 progressive frames (now there are 24 images per second instead of 60). when the frames are output, each frame uses all the available bandwidth, rather than dividing it up between two fields. this increase in bandwidth should produce a more detailed picture.

but the monitor can't display 24 progressive fps, right? well, since the monitor needs to see interlaced video, the dvd player actually takes those progressive frames and divides each of them them up into two fields again, 48 images per second, but each pair of fields has the same picture information on it. and each field is still sent out with the increased bandwidth. the monitor, set to progressive mode, then reintroduces the 3:2 sequencing, bringing the video frame rate back up to 29.97 frames per second.

hope this makes sense, and if i messed up the explanation, that someone will correct me.

ed

p.s. good luck on your sony efforts!! let us know what happens.
post #458 of 689
Bob,

I’m not critical of you using interlaced as the best mode to view the output of the 999es. In fact you posted your “interlaced formula†in response to my post of 12-10-02:

“… I have started to view all the 999es output entirely in interlaced and use the DRC in my 51HW40 for de-interlacing and 3/2 pull down. The picture is less problematic (and I’m not just referring to the c-bug).â€

My post of 11-10-02:

“…It looks like the deinterlacer is the problem on my machine. Switching to interlaced and setting the black level (component out) to off, resolves the flickering on the queens’ dress, and the other anomalies previously mentioned. Using these settings with the DRC on my 51HW40 generates a descent PQ.â€

These settings work for me because I have a decent deinterlacer (line doubler) and 2-3 pull-down in my display. So… the progressive mode displays problems and I have no idea wither someone else using different hardware will be able to work around them. Furthermore, I have no idea wither the newer sets are any less problematic that the first ones that shipped. So I indorse using the interlaced output if that works for you, but I cannot recommend to anyone that they should go out and spend $1k on this machine.

As to your efforts to get Sony to address these problems you have my full support. I hope a quick fix is feasible, and is forthcoming.

Regards,

Ian
post #459 of 689
Back to the 9000es for a sec, has anyone noticed a line accross the top of the scren in Lord of the Rings? I'm using a Panny 50" HD plasma with component cables by Wire World. Anyway, it's only that dvd, Willie wonka, 5th Element and others are fine, could it be the DVD itself?

It appears right near wear the edge of the Letterbox is.

Fulmitz
post #460 of 689
It sounds like it may be the DVD, Fulmitz. I didn't see anything on my copy.

Thanks for your support Ian. I agree, it's hard to recommend the 999 to someone new even if it does work fine in interlace. It should work in all modes.
post #461 of 689
QQQQqqqq2U,

What is "standby mode?†I would very much like to see the firmware version on my machine. If you have a source, I would also like to see the reference to the menu you are using so I can get into and out of it without bad things happening. Thanks for any info you have forthcoming.

Regards,

Ian
post #462 of 689
The service menu of my 999es purchased on 10/22/02 is as follows:

Main Menu:

Model: DPX-1690uc
Revision: 1.400

Revision Menu:

IF con. Ver: 1.000(0616)
Syscon Ver: 1.400 (00D1)
Model B0
Region 01
Servo DSP Ver: 1.021
AVD vcode Ver: 05E30047


Regards,

Ian
post #463 of 689
QQQQqqqq2u2,

How did you figure out how to get to the service menu? Is it in the user manual?

Thanks.
post #464 of 689
Quote:
Originally posted by QQQQqqqq2u2

By the way, my moniker keeps changing due to that fact that the moderator of this forum keeps preventing me from posting due to the Jerry G disagreement issues I have. But as you can see, they cannot prevent from posting! I've been in the computer business to long for them to keep me out....

Thanks!
You need some professional help. I haven't posted about the 999 for some time. At this point, I really don't care. Yet, you remain obsessed over this issue. And it really doesn't take a genius to clog up the works by constantly joining the forum under a new name.

And since you insist on perpetuating your twisted view of someone else expressing an opinion different from yours, let me reiterate that the 999 is plagued by artifacts and if you refuse to acknowledge them you are simply showing that you like to live your life in an "ignorance is bliss" state of mind. As I said, you need some professional psychiatric help.

BTW, in the last sentence of the above quote, "to" should be "too". Perhaps you should spend some time in the English business.

Have a nice day, Mr. Q.
post #465 of 689
C'mon now you guys. Neither of you is a dummy. If you would just settle down and quit throwing insults there are things we could learn from both of you. We all have different opinions and that should be accepted. Don't hurt someone just because you may not agree with his.

Jerry, thank you for pointing out the problems you encountered with your 999. As you may already know, I am pushing Sony to come up with some kind of fix for the shimmer problem. I mentioned some others (like the c-bug) but this seems to be the most annoying so I stressed it even more. I mentioned this forum and told Sony to check for themselves.

I have been sent to the next level, whatever that means. Hopefully not the next level of runaround. Sony, like Denon, must realize there is a problem and jump on it.

I don't know if you had tried to run interlace mode with proper adjustment but it does work very well for me. Of course, you may have had a worse player than mine as I've noticed quite a variation in the seriousness of these glitches. As I said, you seem to know what you are talking about and I appreciate your pointing out these problems.

QQQQqqqq2u2, you also seem to have knowledge that can be helpful to us. You and Jerry sure have gotten into it. This is unfortunate because if you guys would work together instead of hurting each other you may just find that you are both decent fellows. At least try to just ignore each other and try to realize that each of you in his own way is just trying to help.

Jerry was upset because he spent $1000 for a player that had glitches. Please try to understand how he felt. Maybe he was a bit more picky than some others but that's his right. He has his standards and couldn't live with these glitches. He merely expressed his frustrations and, if you think about it, he was spot on with his critique.

I don't like to see anyone banned. Couldn't you guys just pull in the horns and realize that your knowledge is valuable to us and get along? One of the reasons I join forums is because I knew people like you guys would be there with knowledge beyond mine. We would all be better off for it.
post #466 of 689
Quote:
Originally posted by QQQQqqqq2u2


Jerry G, considering that I am presently on a heavy duty narcotic after having surgery on Thursday for a hernia, my spelling is actually pretty good. Your potshot was pretty lame. I'm surprised that you are not 'ignoring' me after you said you would. In replying to Ian about the service menu, I find that my moniker no longer gives me permission to post. I can only assume that you cried to momma again to try and get me banned from this forum.
For the record, I have NEVER complained about you or your posts to the owners or moderators. If someone did, I promise you it was NOT me that did so. I really don't care whether or not you participate in this forum.
post #467 of 689
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Saylor
C'mon now you guys. Neither of you is a dummy. If you would just settle down and quit throwing insults there are things we could learn from both of you. We all have different opinions and that should be accepted. Don't hurt someone just because you may not agree with his.

Bob,

As you mentioned, I simply presented my observations with very specific titles that were easily verified by others. Mr. Q did not want to participate in that verification, but instead imagined that I was trying to destroy Sony. Even after I stopped posting on this issue, he continued to bring up my name. He simply can't seem to accept the fact that this player is flawed. I have no problem with someone who decided that the player is still the right one for them. I do have a problem with someone who says the player is perfect because they don't see the artifacts in every scene they happened to look at.

Mr. Q elected to bring me into the foray again with his more recent posting. Too bad. Had he not done so, none of these following posts would have been made.

BTW, I was able to return the player without a restocking fee, so I'm very pleased about that. I'm glad I had a chance to test the 999, but it clearly was not up to the quality I expect in a higher end DVD player.
post #468 of 689
Jerry G,

How is the 47Ai holding up for you? Any problems with it? Are you still satisfied with it?

Just wondering...
post #469 of 689
Quote:
Originally posted by mpedris
Jerry G,

How is the 47Ai holding up for you? Any problems with it? Are you still satisfied with it?

Just wondering...
I'm very pleased with the Pioneer 47Ai. No problems whatsoever. I think picture quality is excellent. Although I only use it for audio about 15% of the time, I still wanted SACD and DVD-Audio capability and I'm pleased with the audio reproduction.
post #470 of 689
I have now had my 999ES for about 1 week now. I have noticed a significant improvement in the Audio quality over my other 3 Sony Players: 500D; 560D; 900V.

The video is overall superior as well. The chroma bug issue is really not an issue. It is not present in many of the discs that have been know to have this issue.

However, there is another issue that is present much to my dismay. I do not know if there is a technical/practical term to describe it, so I will attempt to do so here.

In many scenes in several movies there is a non-normal representation of "brightness" where you have reflected light. For example, in 5th Element Superbit, when Leeloo is on the ledge of that building clothed in those "bandages", where the spotlight of the police vehicle shines onto her bandages, the bandages reflect back almost as if they had sparkles in them, or something similar to what would look like a TV screen with just snow on it. The same for when Pavla Laguna is signing. Wherever the reflected light is the brightest, same thing occurs.

This is also present at times in LOTR when they are showing a distant shot of the Fellowship group when they are first walking on the fresh snow on the mountain side.

Again, I am not sure what this may be called. I have made several adjustments on both my LCD Projector (Canon LV-S1), and on the 999ES itself with no better results.

I have run Avia on my machine and according to it's recommended settings, my Projector is set up perfectly.

Any ideas? I will check the service menu for Firmware Rev tonight.

BTW, I purchased it from Oade brothers on-line, and Jim was absolutely first class to deal with all the way.
post #471 of 689
Boy, that's a strange one. My only thought would have been to make sure one or more of the levels is not set too high. You might go to page 85 of the manual and try some of the picture troubleshooting ideas.
post #472 of 689
Quote: BTW, in the last sentence of the above quote, "to" should be "too". Perhaps you should spend some time in the English business.

Reply: Spoken like a true pedant.

I've been away from the thread for a while. I'm glad to see Bob Saylor made some progress with a workaround (hopefully this will only be necessary as a temporary fix). I have faith in Sony, especially if the complaints reach the right office.

Even though I'm enjoying great success with the progressive output mode, I tried setting up the interlaced mode (as per Bob's instruction's) and was quite surprised to see the great results. Hey, Bob, I finally got to see a layer-change delay while watching Star Wars II; it wasn't all that noticeable and none of my guests caught it. But then again, they are more or less normal everyday people who are not cursed with the dreaded A/V obsessiveness. :)

Well, I'm off to (did I spell that right?) watch a few more movies.

Ciao,
Peter M
post #473 of 689
Kinda on the topic, expensive vs. less expensive Progressive scan DVD. I just picked up a Panasonic cp-72 and have been comparing with the 9000ES I have for trial and I'm having a hard time telling the difference. I can't seem to find the chroma bug in 5th Element in the red button or the Zorg sign with either player. The Panasonic seems to have blacker blacks with it's increase black level option. Obviously the build of the Sony seems sturdier and looks cooler than the Panasonic but noise is about the same. What should I be looking for? I haven't compared movie sound or CD sound as my reciever isn't in yet. Been waiting 3 weeks for a Denon 3803. If the installer can't give me a definite date tomorrow I'm gonna get a refund and buy from someone who has it in stock locally. Any suggestions to test? What should I be looking for between the 2?

Fulmitz

I've heard of people having a tin ear, but what about a lead eye? ;)
post #474 of 689
I've been watching for layer changes on mine too videonut. I was surprised to find that they weren't taking as long as I thought they were. I'd say they were about a second or less.

On the interlace setup I found that if I left one or the other black levels off in interlace you can vary the intensity of the picture. The black level is actually way too high out of the box as noted by a more knowledgble member. We can't adjust it much in progressive but we can with the interlace mode. If you watch dark scenes you'll lose all the detail in the picture in the too deep black. With proper adjustment you can still get a beautiful, crisp picture in daylight scenes but have much better resolution in dark scenes. I can't remember for sure but I think I turned on the component out black and turned off the other one... you'll have to expieriment. Then I used the Cinema 2 setting. Brightness is at +1.
post #475 of 689
hi all... h999ES from JandR arrived last night. before going out for the evening hooked it up to take a quick look. used LOTR for viewing, since i'm fairly familiar with the pq of that disc. i thought it looked great. my big disappointment, however, was the 999ES remote! previous machine, the sony 7700, had dedicated subtitle on/off, change subtitle buttons, plus other dedicated buttons. this can be quite useful and living without em is going to be difficult. as a result, i've ordered a universal remote, hoping to avoid frequent visits to the 999's menus. more news when i have something to report.

ed
post #476 of 689
The 999 remote can do many things . There is no dedicated button for them, however. You have to use the little digital screen. I didn't mind that. You do have to be careful when pushing the button and make sure you are pushing straight down or you trigger the next setting. Several times when checking the time/text which first on the list, I accidentally pushed the wrong way. The next setting on the list was video off. this made a bit of a panic move and a few cuss words happen as I tried to turn the video back on. They should have had something more suttle next or made it more positive to push down. Otherwise I really don't mind the remote.
post #477 of 689
Glad to know you got yours, editor. I'm still waiting for mine; ordered it last Thursday from J&R but they still haven't shipped it out yet!

Btw, I also just got the Sony RM-AV3000 to replace my 6 remotes, and it's a great universal remote!
post #478 of 689
thanks for the remote heads-up, bob. and thank you, sonus, for mentioning the sony remote. i just ordered an mx-500, hoping that the traditional remote style would work out for everyone that needs to use it. if not, i may try a different remote. to get a feel for the world of universal remotes, i asked an engineer at work if he had one, and he said, yes, several. (i see....!).

btw, sonus, j&r shipped last thursday, ground, and it arrived here in san francisco on tuesday.

ed
post #479 of 689
As I previously stated, the remote for the 999 is horrible. A step above the remote for the Denon 3800, but still a terrible remote. Sony gets so many things so right, why did they have to include a remote like this on a flagship product? The remote they include on their TiVo is vastly superior to this one. Sony's design teams need to get together IMHO.

All told, I'm about done with the various issues with the 999. The "jumping text" bug (very similar to shimmering) has pretty much ended my affair with the 999. The opening scene of Pulp Fiction (Collector's Edition) looks awful. The text jumps up and down worse than VHS. Mine's going back in favor of a Yamaha 2300. If that doesn't work out, I'm biting the bullet and getting another Denon 3800; hopefully, they'll have factory originals by then that have the new laser pickup mods to make them "stable". The picture on the 3800 was noticeably better than the 999. Now, if they can only play an entire DVD. :)

Brian.
post #480 of 689
Brian, I don't find the remote all that objectionable. As to the rest of your post, I have to agree.

The 999es is a good SACD player, which will serve as a backup DVD player in my system. This player cannot deliver the PQ of a player that can be had for 20% of the price of this machine. The 999es looks better and does not transfer vibrations, as some of the less expensive players do, but it falls short of delivering consistent PQ.

I was not looking for a SACD player when I purchased this machine, but rather a “high end†DVD player. The mistake was mine. I bought on the expectation that Sony would deliver a high end product rather than waiting to see how the product measured up. Sony does, however, loose some “good faith†in the deal. So it goes…

Regards,

Ian
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