Very High Quality DIY speakers anywhere? - Page 5

Neuner,

My dream speaker system happens to be 2 Ariels, and 3 ME-2's. maybe after I get off my ass and finish the Audax system I currently have in work, (for far too long). I already have a home for the Audaxes, but that person doesn't know it yet. I want to make sure they work first! The crossovers are being built by me, using specs from Audax page, and some help from speakerbuilder.net. The cool thing is Parts Express is just down the road from me!!

I am looking to see which sub I'm goona build. Right now I have an Infinity BU-2 fart box! Actually, it's not too bad, as long as I don't get crazy with the volume.

Film at eleven!!!!!

Griff

Family get-togethers and holiday shopping took more of my time than I expected. I'm behind schedule... (Perhaps I'll reconsider holding those who convinced me to flush mount the drivers responsible. )

One speaker is veneered, the other has only the wrap-around front and side piece left to apply. I'm so close to getting these completed.

Trimming the wrap around veneer for the front and sides was done with the razor knife shown here:


Here it is... ready for black aniline dye and finish.


Last time I was in the Woodworker's Supply store in Burlington, NC, I asked what I could use to get a really flat non-glare finish as I found that the satin finish I used on the Audax center speaker was still way more glossy than I would have liked. The salesman told me of a clear spray lacquer labeled "Dead Flat." He said it had no shine at all.

I tried some on a scrap of the veneer I had dyed after making the center channel. I think it will work out really well. It had no shine or gloss at all on my sample. I do not want to see light from my screen reflected from the sides of my Left/Right speakers. We'll soon see if it works as advertised.

Joe L.

Joe,
Again, great photos. My box-o-Audax parts will be here today. BTW, I'm trying to figure out how to use my new router to round the corners. I have a rounding bit but I think I may need one that has a roller-bearing on the tip. Got any pointers?
Jeff

Right on schedule at 9:45am, my Audax parts arrived! Too bad I'm leaving for Charlotte at noon for more family visitation. JL, I'm in the same boat as you...the holiday season has really slowed my progress.
Jeff

J.L.,

Nice work! I hope mine turn out that well. I have the boxes built, but haven't veneered them yet. What kind of veneer did you use? Did you order it over the 'net? If so, where? I've never veneered before, but have done some laminate work, so I think I'll be okay. I haven't bought the parts yet. After the holidays I'll go over to Parts Express and pick them up. I also have to build some boxes for my brother. He brought some speakers over, and wants me to build the boxes. I have no idea what brand drivers they are, so I'm gonna use a generic three-way crossover from PE. He thinks Home Theater in a Box speakers sounds good, so it oughta work.

Good Luck with the boxes, and keep posting pictures!!!!!


Griff

Griff,
Check out this site:
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/
I'm probably going to buy mine from them. I looked at lots of sites and this one has nice photos of each veneer and they quote the price right on their site...others don't.
Jeff

I would not worry about ordering over the web. (or calling an 800 number)

I used 10 mil paper backed Red Oak Veneer I purchased as Woodworker's Supply company of NC. Fortunately for me, they are in Burlington, NC, about 15 minutes down the road from where I work.

The first 4x8 sheet I purchased I was able to just walk in and they had it in stock. It was enough for the Audax Center, one of the Front speakers, and the top, bottom, and back of the other front speaker. (With a bit of luck and some planning for best use of the material for least waste)

The second time I visited their store, (just before Thanksgiving) they did not have the Red-Oak veneer in stock but offered to drop-ship it with no added shipping charges from the Casper Wyoming store. I took advantage of that offer. It arrived within a few days.

Woodworker's Supply Company - Web catalog page for veneer.

From what I saw of the samples on the oakwoodveneer.com site, the red-oak I have is similar to their more expensive rotary cut. It looks to me as if they and the local Woodworker's supply are within a few dollars of each other's price. With that in mind, go with whoever has the veneer you like.

Joe L.

Someone told me about a place called Tapeease.com. They seem to have excellent prices. I'll try to see if anyone has used them, and how happy they were. I don't mind paying a little extra for a good product and good service....

How happy are you guys with the veneers you got?

Griff

I definatly reccomend a bit with a bearing on it. Life is just easier with good bearings, so you don't burn any of the wood, it also makes for smoother more even rounds across the whole length of the cut. Make sure you buy the correct cutter for the router, the shank size, that is, and from what I remember, everyone says the larger the radius the better for edges of the cabinets, which normally means a 3/4" round for a 1/4" shank router bit.

I only have experience with purchasing two sheets of one type of veneer (10 Mil, Paper Backed, Red Oak) in one size (4x8 foot sheet) from one company (Woodworker's Supply of NC). I'm not sure if my veneer is representative of the other woods they stock, or if it is easier or harder to work with than other wood veneers.

With all that in mind....

The two sheets of veneer were very similar in grain pattern and in color even though I purchased them several months apart and that they were supplied from different store locations. One was supplied from the main warehouse in Wyoming, the other from the local warehouse in NC. I would not have any issue in building a project using pieces from each sheet. (In fact, I will do exactly that on one of my front speakers)

The quality was very consistent across the entire 4x8 sheet. It was supplied with the grain parallel with the long edge of the sheet. (Important, you may need to check with the vendor which way the grain goes) The pieces were rolled into about an 8 inch diameter tube across the grain. The cardboard carton was therefore about 4 feet long and 8 inches square.

I needed pieces about 35 inches by 28 inches with the grain parallel to the 28 inch side so I could wrap it around the front edges of the Left and Right speakers. This would NOT have been possible in a single piece if I had purchased a 2 foot by 8 foot piece of veneer. Did I mention that you should check with your chosen supplier, otherwise, you may not get the grain in the direction you need for the wrap around style cabinet.

I am very satisfied with the veneer I purchased and the company I purchased it from. The only issue at all was an extra day or two in delivery time when they drop shipped one piece to my house from their main store in Casper, Wyoming over the Thanksgiving holiday. (because their warehouse was closed for the holiday) However, the salesman had alerted me to that delay when I purchased the veneer, and asked me if it was acceptable. I don't think I could have had any easier time with the purchase.

Joe L.

J.L. man that is looking great!
I am almost at the pre-finishing point myself. I managed to get some things done during the break. Difficult since everyone wants to make merry, and give me spiked eggnog. I have a personal rule, no powertools after alcohol. (I still have all my digits) Therefore I had to quit early a couple of times.



So I need to do some bondoing, then sanding/sealing. I want a satin black since they are theater speakers. Any tips on finishing? I am not sure about trying the veneer thing. I feel insecure about it.

James

my Linus Array Variants

Thanks Scott,
My router is a 1/2" with a 1/4" adapter. I've been using a 1/4" straight bit. I'll go back to Home Depot and spend the extra $$ on the bit with a bearing.
jeff

James,

It is hard to see details in your picture of your line array enclosures. I can see the left and right edge of your enclosure are rounded over. Did you also round over the top and bottom edges?

If you did round over the top and bottom as well as the sides, it will make the use of veneer more difficult as you will need to deal with the corners that have curves in both the horizontal and vertical direction.

As far as tips... Surface preparation is the key to a good finish, even if veneering. If you can run your fingertips over the surface and feel any imperfections, they will show through the finish... even if using veneer.

If you use veneer, it will give you more choices for the final finish. I was looking for a flat black, wood grain finish, similar to one used on many commercial loudspeakers.

From what I have read, hardest to get is a piano gloss finish, the smallest of imperfections will show. Since you are looking for a satin finish, it will be a little easier. Note: even with a satin finish, imperfections will show.

I used Minwax Polycrylic Satin finish on my center channel. It turned out to have a lot of gloss, more than I would have liked. I would suggest you get a quart of whatever you are considering and experiment on a piece of scrap material before using it on your line array enclosure.

I will be using the "Dead Flat" spray lacquer over black, water based analine dye on the Left and Right enclosures. This, with luck, should get me the least reflective surface possible.

I spent far more time getting the surface sanded this time. I also made sure the glue I applied to attach the veneer went on more smoothly than on the center speaker. (I added water to the yellow glue to thin it about 5 percent. It made it a lot easier to apply and get an even coating)
Unevenness in the glue coating showed through the veneer on the back of my center channel. (It was the first piece of veneer I applied. I did it first since it would be least visible)

With all the work you have put into your line arrays, you will want to make them look as good as they sound... and then dissapear when your lower the lights to watch a movie.

Joe L.

JL or anyone else who may know...Can I purchase a veneer glue from Home Depot or do I need to find a woodworking supply shop? I'll probably go ahead and order two sheets for veneer from www.oakwoodveneer.com but they don't sell the adhesive.
Jeff

Jeff,

There are at least two different categories of glue I've read about used to apply veneer.

One category is "contact cements" of which there are two types. One type is water based, the other is not and requires a solvent for cleanup. I've read that the water based type is not recommended for veneer. The solvent based type is very flamable and must be used in a well ventilated area. It is available at your local "Home Depot" or "Lowes" home improvement store. It is commonly used for veneer and laminate.

The other type of glue is the same yellow wood glue you probably already have used in constructing your cabinets. I used "Titebond" brand, but I really don't think it makes much difference as to the brand.

With both categories, you apply a coating of glue to both the back side of the veneer and the surface to be laminated and let them sit until dry to the touch. (This drying step is much faster with the contact cement than with yellow glue)

Once the glue is dry, you can then apply the veneer.

In the case of contact cement, it bonds upon contact. You must keep the glue surfaces from touching until you have them aligned. I think that would have been very difficult with the wrap around front and side piece of veneer. Once the surfaces touch, they bond. (on contact!) they cannot be re-positioned.

With dried yellow glue, you use a hot iron to apply heat to the veneer to melt the glue between it and the cabinet. You can work from the center outward taking your time to smooth the veneer over the rounded edges of the cabinet. If you do not like the way it bonds, I imagine, heat could let you remove a piece of laminate and re-apply it (I did not have to resort to this since this method is very forgiving).

I used a double thickness of aluminum foil on the bottom of the iron to protect it from any glue for when we need to use it again to iron clothes. (Does anybody iron anymore?) If anything, it helped keep any residual steam (it was my wife's steam iron) from moistening the veneer.

Check out the following links:
How to apply veneer using hot iron and yellow glue and advantages over contact cement

Further details of hot iron and yellow glue veneer technique

Joe L.

Thanks JL,
I didn't realize that I could use the yellow glue. I think I also have Titebond Supreme or something like that. Thanks for the pointers.
Jeff

Since we have been talking about roundover bits...
I have always believed in rounding edges to lessen edge diffraction. Until recently I thought the 3/4" radius roundover bearing bit at the hardware store was the largest available, and I have used it all over.

Of course the more gradual the edge the better. I found out that they make a 1.5" radius roundover bearing bit! (I had no idea.) So I HAD to get one of these. I located one at an industrial tool store in town. It was very expensive $140. (Don't tell the wife...) I was extremely scared about whether my router could handle it and how it would cut, since the bit was HUGE, about 3 5/8" in diameter with a 1/2" shank! I had to manufacture a custom base for it since it was about 1" bigger than the current router opening. The bit is actually too large to sit within the router and I had to mount the bit below the router and make the base thick enough to engulf the edge. I used 3/8" clear acrylic.

I was very worried about whether it would work, but it cut just fine. It did make the most amazing amount of sawdust I have ever seen, I have a vacuum attachment for the router, but it couldn't even keep up with the 5 foot fountain of sawdust this bit was making. I mean it was pulverizing almost the equivalent of a 1" x 1" on a single pass.

Anyway here is a picture of the giant bit, my custom base, the dwarfed router, and the radius that was cut.

I love the broad radius, it begins almost at the end of the flush mounted drivers.

J.L. you can see in this picture I only rounded the vertical edges.

James

James,

Wow... you do things in a BIG way. That is one heck of a router bit. I'm pretty sure that was intended to be used in a table mounted router or jointer. I'll bet it took a bit of courage to take it to the sides of your enclosure.

Given that you did not round over the top and bottom edges of your enclosures, I would go with a veneer finish applied using the dry yellow glue and hot iron on technique. It is really hard to mess it up and the resulting surface would be great even if you decide to finish with a satin lacquer top coat rather than the more traditional stain, etc.

I really like the way the black aniline dye soaked into my veneer to give me a very uniform color with very little effort. It was much easier than the usual wax based stains I have used in the past. I used a 1 inch foam brush and it blended very well since it has the consistency of water. It results in a very flat black surface with a nice grain texture.

Once at that point, you can try different finishes on a scrap to get the desired gloss (or satin) finish. Only then do I recommend that you use the top finish on your line array cabinets.

Joe L.

Joe L., could you pass on more info on your dead flat spray? Brand name, MFG part number, whatever? I would like to see if my local HD or Lowes has it so I can try it!
jmiyake, HOLY CRAP BATMAN! That is one honkin bit! I don't think I would do that with a hand-held router! Scare the crap out of me to even try it! I beleive you when you say that your vacuum could not keep up, especially with MDF! Looking good! When you are all done, can I come over and check it out? I live in Manteca, about an hour from SJ.

I concur!

Scott,

The spray lacquer I purchased is made by "H. Behlen" as part of their "Master" brand. The MFG model number is B101-0883.

I purchased it from Woodworker's Supply in Burlington, NC. It is their catalog number 934-154. It was the salesman there who recommended it if I was looking for a flat finish with no gloss or shine.

If you go to their web-site (woodworker.com) and search for "dead flat" you will find it for $6.99 a can.

It is in a 13 oz blue colored spray can.

The label says:

H. Behlen
Master
Jet Spray
Lacquer Finish
B101-0883
Jet Spray
Lacq. Clr. Dead Flat


The back of the can says in small print:

For Industrial and Commercial Use only.
Manufactured by: H. BEHLEN & BRO.
Amsterdam, N.Y. 12010 - An RPM Company.

I have not seen the brand at either of the local Lowes or Home Depot. I did a search on the web and it looked like it was carried by places catering to refinishers and woodworkers.

As I said in an earlier message, I tried it on a piece of scrap veneer I had dyed black with the aniline dye and once it dried, I could not tell any difference from where I had applied the lacquer and where I had not. Both were flat black. The lacquer added no shine of its own.

Joe L.

Sure Scott, you'd be welcome.
Always happy to talk with another HT/stereo enthusiast. The sound of a Line Array is rather addicting, fast, big, dynamic, powerful.
Do you like ale?
James

Scott said: Holy Crap! Batman
Jeff said: Holy Crap! Batman
I had a speaker building friend come over yesterday.
When she saw the bit she said: Holy Crap!

It went really smooth. I took it slowly, but there was no jumping, no chatter and no real problems. So I don't know if I am reckless, or what.

James
(I still have all my body parts)

I made a bit of progress today on the Audax HT Left/Right Front speakers.

The wrap-around piece of veneer was attached yesterday evening to the front/sides of the second enclosure. I trimmed it this morning, gave the edges of the veneer a final sanding, and took the enclosures outside to apply the aniline dye.

After several coats of dye, the enclosures looked like this:


Here you can see the wrap-around veneer and how nice it looks once trimmed and dyed:


I used a roundover bit on the ports. I also cut about a 1/8th inch rabbet to make it easy to trim the veneer. Here you can see the rear of the enclosures. The second hole is for the terminal cup.


Since I did not have enough time for the water based aniline dye finish to dry and then apply the lacquer, I brought the enclosures inside to finish drying overnight. It would also let me judge how they would look adjacent to the screen in my theater. (Wife and I watched a movie this evening. The enclosures reflected very little light from the screen... We are both pleased with the appearance)


So close... Tomorrow is supposed to be warm. I just might be able to sand the grain raised from the first coats of applied dye, and then apply another coat of dye to even out the color. (As long as I don't get stuck at work too late)

Joe L.

James, you will have to let me know when they are done, and I will come on over. Do I like Ale? Depends what kind, I guess. I am more into the Cabernet's and the Tawny Ports and desert wines.

Joe, those speakers are looking great. Time for me to start some more projects with the woodworking skills. I want to re-do my equipment rack someday, I will try to get some of the laquer for that project and may end up re-making my speaker cabinets someday....

James,
I like ale;-) I also like a good Cabernet or an Aussie Shiraz! I also love those speakers you're building! JL, yours are looking great also.

As for my speakers, yesterday was in the 60s here and I didn't get anything done but priming. Today, it's a lot cooler and I have sanded and added a second coat of primer to the sonosub end caps. I have also started painting the tube but the temp is in the 40s and the paint probably won't dry. On the other hand, I finally opened the boxes of Audax parts to check against the packing slip and man, these are nice components! The individual Audax boxes are very well put together and presented very nicely. Madisound did a nice job packing it all and were able to use the foam for padding. Maybe, I'll start cutting the cabinets for these while the paint on the sonosub dries.
Jeff

J.L.

Again your speakers are looking wonderful. These pics, and the fact that my center channel is coming along really nicely has reaffirmed my desire to rebuild the cabinets for my L/R Audax's.

I'll post pics of the speaker hopefully tomorrow. Unfortunately the weather has not allowed me to build where I am temporarily living and having to drag the kids to my parents while I'm using my Dad's garage is not fun either. I'm going to have to wait until my new house is done to apply the finish as well as finish the sonosub.

The upside is the crossovers will be done tomorrow, if I get my back ordered part, for the center channel and I am going to place the shiva in the box I built for it a few months ago. I am going to haul my system over to my parents, where my Mits is located, on Thursday and test everything out. It has been awhile since I watched a movie on decent TV with a decent sound system.

Scott,

I might take you up on your offer of using the table saw in a couple of months.

Later,

Don

?? Manteca Man (darthopus), are you drowning in all the rain that is coming down, causing you to mis-type and submit reply?

Scott,

Let that be a lesson to all about leaving your laptop in mid post, near a toddler, while you make a bottle for your 4 month old. She managed to type in garbage, submit the reply and shut down the browser. She's cute most of the time!

Don

A Major Milestone!

My line arrays are wired and connected and now playing at a theater downstairs. Still unfinished, but I want to do some tuning and tweaking, then I'll round out the port hole and finish it.

They arrays seem much bigger in the house, than in the garage. The wife likes them! (Thank God for that!) They really need to be flat black, when I put on the projector, I was getting a bit of reflection washout on the screen. Also the inside walls of the speakers would glow.

As far as the sound?
Well it is to early to make any judgments, the speakers are not broken in. The woofer crossover is not optimal and the port is not tuned yet.

But...Good things seem to be in store.
The sound is BIG! Dynamic. Exciting. Yet after just a bit of tweaking, very precise, and detailed. The sense of space is amazing.

However it is not even close to being dialed in yet. There is some harshness and some peaking in the crossover area. Which make certain types of music that emphasize this region a bit unpleasant. the mids and the tweets seem to be overlapping too much. I am able to affect this sound in messing with the crossover, but I don't have the correct parts yet to bring things in line. It seems very fixable.

The cabinets are so dead. No vibration is apparent even while they are blasting loudly. Tapping on them is like tapping on concrete. Check my link for some of the steps I took to insure a dead cabinet.

Linus Array Variants

I have definitely noticed the woofers smoothing out due to break in over the last few hours. (Maybe it's my ears, but I don't think so.)

Also my early listening hints that I will probably want a center channel. Although the image stays in front of you, if you move to an extreme right or left, it leaves the center of the screen which does not surprise me. The phantom center thing works ok if the speakers are close enough, and you stay near enough the sweet spot. When I went front projection, and spread out the speakers for the screen, the whole phantom thing fell apart.

Anyway, Happy New Year everyone!

James (of the Two Towers)