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Indianapolis / Terre Haute / Lafayette, IN - HDTV - Page 217

post #6481 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Heller View Post

Can anyone help id what purpose each antenna likely serves?

I'd start at the base of the tower. Is there an identifiable business there? If so, the type of business would help identify the antennas needed in that type of business.

You might be able to find licensing information for the directional dishes. The rectangular dish is likely a studio to transmitter link of some sort (with the antennas pointed in the same direction above it possibly being used to monitor the broadcast).

For any point to point aimed dish I'd probably start on a map. Figure out what direction each is aimed in and draw a line out until you find another tower or tall building where the signal could be connected. If they are receive only UHF antennas the business might be using them to monitor TV stations. (This is another reason to start at the base of the tower and figure out what business is there. It is a lot easier to start looking when one knows which field to look in.)
post #6482 of 6947
Where is the tower located? At a business or government facility?

The circular ones are parabolic dishes. The "hotdog" shaped one is also has a parabolic reflector, but the reflector is rectangular rather than circular. Both of these are probably used for STL in the 900MHz band. Don't know about the Yagis other than they are fixed links to somewhere.
post #6483 of 6947
Thread Starter 
Might this tower be located on the north edge of town at the WCSI/WKKG studios? Or maybe another Columbus location for one of the other radio groups? As mentioned above, the parabolic dishes appear to be STL antennas, possibly from a radio studio to the transmitter/tower site. If this is a setup for a radio station(s) the Yagis at the top could be transmit and/or receive antennas for a MARTI setup, used for remote broadcasts when outside the main studio. http://www.bswusa.com/proditem.asp?item=SRPT40A

Strictly guesses at this point.

Steve
post #6484 of 6947
Thanks, guys!

1. the building at its base is --wait for it-- a radio station -part of a group- with studio and admin offices. It is in downtown Columbus at 9th St and Washington St.

2. Yes, I believe there are STL antennas on the tower. I assume each works in duplex (Tx and Rx), if I'm using the term, duplex, right. Thank you for pretty clearly stating that the circular parabolics are likely used for that. One points E to a Greensburg station, which is part of the WRZQ group. The other points N, possibly to a Franklin station???

3. The Yagi fixed link is pretty low (maybe 30' above ground) and seems to point on an E-W axis. Maybe that one monitors the Greensburg station's transmission. I hadn't thought of the need to monitor a distant broadcast, but #4 may explain the Yagi's presence.

4. That STL to Greensburg seems to have been a central concern of the station group owner. He has applied for zoning variances to erect a 200' tower which will replace this 100' tower. His application says something about interruption of service (presumably on this link) and mentions a Fresnel zone problem due to its low height and trees.

5. that rectangular parabolic -the hot dog bun one- remains a mystery (to little old me), so if any of this info is helpful in further deciphering what it may do would be appreciated.


The tower, unfortunately, is located across an alleyway from the backyards of several in-town residences. So the station owner has to seek very substantial zoning variances (required distance from residential) as well as fencing around its base.

The reason I asked for identification help is that the engineering schematic of the tower showed several of these same antennas (but maybe the lower yagi is gone, I don't recall). But the tower schematic shows a large horizontally-oriented array of vertical directional antennas, just like those you see on cellular towers.

I'm assuming that his desire to build a taller tower is not simply to cure his STL service reliability, but also to attract the lease revenue from Verizon, AT&T, etc. It's a wise business strategy, but it's running right up against local community opposition. No one has said anything about it supporting cellular service, only some statement about the owner signing a letter of intent (a FCC req't?) to share the use of the tower.

Here's a fertile section of the planning dept's staff report on the petition for the zoning variances being sought. Any comments would be of interest. Thanks for all the replies!
-----------------
The petitioner has provided, which is also part of the requirements of Section 6.8 Telecommunication Facility Standards, a letter stating the determination of new tower need. The ordinance states that this letter is necessary to determine that the proposed tower cannot be accommodated on any existing or approved towers or other structures within a 2 mile radius of the proposed tower location.

The petitioner states the need for the tower at this location is because the existing tower is full and cannot accommodate any additional equipment. The new tower will accommodate the five radio stations and the Emergency Alert System broadcast response equipment. The petitioner indicated that this much service cannot be accommodated on any one tower within the 2 mile radius. The radio station and the tower function as one unit that transmits information to another larger, remote tower
that will then send it to through the system (re-transmit) to peoples radios. A cell tower does not broadcast information therefore does not need a point of origin, rather it relays information from one tower to the other. The petitioner also owns a 330 foot tower on Carr Hill Road [T Heller note: this tower and two other, much taller towers lie in the same direction, but fall just barely outside the 2-miles cited.] This tower is used as the receiver of the information that the proposed tower will be transmitting. The proposed tower is needed to send the broadcasting signal to the other taller tower. Additionally, the petitioner states the ordinance was written with cellular towers in mind and cellular towers “relay” information from tower to tower. Radio signals are “different than the intention of the ordinance because its purpose is the ‘dissemination of locally originated content.’ Somewhere down the line, the information is picked up and re-transmitted”.
----------------------
post #6485 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Heller View Post

5. that rectangular parabolic -the hot dog bun one- remains a mystery (to little old me), so if any of this info is helpful in further deciphering what it may do would be appreciated.

It still could be a STL. The systems I worked with used the rectangular parabolics for the links.

BTW: The yagi doesn't have to be for a very distant station. Directional antennas just do a better job of focusing in on the desired station ... even if the distance isn't that far.
post #6486 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Heller View Post

Hey guys, gotta challenge for y'all.

Attached are images of antennas on a nearby tower. There's a Yagi-style antenna toward the bottom, a couple of circular-shaped ones further up, a 'hot-dog bun'-shaped one and then something on the very top.

Can anyone help id what purpose each antenna likely serves?

I suspect the circular ones are for (semi) long-distance STL (studio-to-transmitter) channels (one faces E the other N). The yagi, hot-dog bun and the top one are mysteries to me.

At the very top there is a rotator supporting a mast with a little yagi above a pair of larger yagis ganged together, and all 3 are vertically polarized. They're steerable and probably for receiving signals from a remote live unit. More height for these would increase the radius for operating those remote mobile units.

On one face at the top there is a round grid antenna, and another one halfway up, and I agree these are used to link signals from the studio to transmitting towers located elsewhere. Between these two is a truncated grid antenna (hot dog bun: very amusing) which is vertically polarized for another studio to transmitter link. It's possible one or more of the studio-transmitter links are operating in reverse as intercity signal relays for program collection away from the studio.

The big grid antennas probably cause the slender tower to wobble in high winds, changing their pointing and causing the signal at the other end to fluctuate which could interrupt the programming going into the transmitter, and which a sturdier tower would alleviate. Also, additional height on these might be necessary to overcome tree growth or new construction that have caused path signal blockages.

At the bottom is a VHF yagi antenna probably to receive the stations' EAS Monitoring assignments, but it looks more like attached to the building than to the tower.

Are you looking for a way to make this happen, or for a way to make this not happen??
post #6487 of 6947
George - thanks for your astute observation. I love the info on what's happening on the very top. You have a keen eye.

The low VHF Yagi is indeed attached to the tower - or at least on an arm extended out from the tower. I suppose EAS makes sense. What a large antenna that is!!

I am neither for or against this at this time, but I have friends in the immediate residential neighborhood who are dead-set against it, due to the huge variances being sought (permitted use in the zone, setback, fencing and distance from residential properties.) The proposed tower will also tower well above our town's 'Main Street' -- and the large horizontal array of cell antennae shown in its engineering schematic harms the tower's 'svelte' silhouette.

At this point, I am mostly trying to understand what the present tower does - and what the proposed tower can -and likely will- do. I suspect he wants it to host an array of cellular antennas, perhaps filling in a hole in the town's cellular coverage. Cummins is planning a second new office building downtown with 600+ employees (in addition to its long-standing downtown HQ), so there's a rich -and demanding- market especially as 3G and 4G comes along.

The tower applicant withdrew his petition for variances from the Board of Zoning Appeals the other night, when about a hundred folks showed up. He can resubmit, but he'll have a steep hill to climb.

There seems to be some 'two-mile alternative' standard that applies, perhaps an FCC allowance. The applicant owns a 330' tower 2.5 miles away and there's two other very tall towers 2.25 miles away. Using them would be far less of a variance than what he's asking redistance from residntial, etc. I can't say those towers have the capacity to support the radio services the owner presently conducts, but all that seems to matter is that they're more than two miles away.

Thanks for all the info, guys!
post #6488 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Molnar View Post
At the very top there is a rotator supporting a mast with a little yagi above a pair of larger yagis ganged together, and all 3 are vertically polarized. They're steerable and probably for receiving signals from a remote live unit.
I missed the rotator ... and I agree that is the likely use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Heller View Post
I am neither for or against this at this time, but I have friends in the immediate residential neighborhood who are dead-set against it, due to the huge variances being sought (permitted use in the zone, setback, fencing and distance from residential properties.) The proposed tower will also tower well above our town's 'Main Street' -- and the large horizontal array of cell antennae shown in its engineering schematic harms the tower's 'svelte' silhouette.
And that is where I would fall in "against" the tower (if it were in my back yard). Increasing the height and size of the tower WILL help the existing radio station uses. But adding cellular antennas is a new service that DOES NOT need to be there for the radio station to continue to use the tower. The income from leasing space to a cellular provider will help the station ... but engineering the tower for the cell array (and potentially additional cell arrays from other carriers) increases the size of the tower beyond what it needs to be to serve the radio station's needs.

It would be interesting to take a look at the engineering schematic and see where each of the existing services are placed on the new tower. How much of the new tower is above the height of any relocated antenna? Will they be using the top for the radio station STLs and putting cellular at lower levels or is this a plan that raises the STLs a little higher while creating higher space for non radio station uses? The placement of the radio station use antennas would certainly be the key if it were in my back yard and I was fighting for or against the tower.
post #6489 of 6947
I'll see if I can get a pic of the schematic to post here. Thanks for the many inputs. I think it's an interesting matter, both technologically but also politically (neighborhood-wise).
post #6490 of 6947
Here's pic of the proposed tower, along with a table depicting what is at what height. Any comments/observations welcome.
LL
LL
post #6491 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Heller View Post
Here's pic of the proposed tower, along with a table depicting what is at what height. Any comments/observations welcome.
The top of this new tower includes an Aviation Beacon plus a Low Power FM Transmitting antenna. Who thinks that a 200-ft tower with a beacon is appropriate in a residential area? And, must LPFM licensees resolve blanket interference issues like full-power stations?

I would also concur it appears that a cell company is partnering with a radio licensee to circumvent zoning or other barriers to improve the chances of dropping in an unpopular cell site by upgrading an existing or grandfathered tower.
post #6492 of 6947
Quote:


The top of this new tower includes ... a Low Power FM Transmitting antenna. Who thinks that a 200-ft tower with a beacon is appropriate in a residential area? And, must LPFM licensees resolve blanket interference issues like full-power stations?

Thanks George. But could you clarify what you mean about LPFM resolving blanket interference issues?
post #6493 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Heller View Post

Thanks George. But could you clarify what you mean about LPFM resolving blanket interference issues?

I know that the FCC makes full power FM stations responsible for resolving blanket interference under Rule 47CFR73.318 but I do not know if there is a corresponding requirement for LPFM stations. The ERI LP-2E antenna at 190-ft on this tower has the potential to create blanket interference, but it's not clear whether it will be used for a full power or low power FM station.
post #6494 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Molnar View Post

The top of this new tower includes an Aviation Beacon plus a Low Power FM Transmitting antenna. Who thinks that a 200-ft tower with a beacon is appropriate in a residential area?

A radio station. Anyone else would probably not like it. (I had a taller tower in the middle of a field and the person who built a house and moved in years after the tower was there would complain several times a year. When the lighting system locked up in day mode with a white strobe all night long it annoyed the neighbor the most.)

Quote:


And, must LPFM licensees resolve blanket interference issues like full-power stations?

Yes - See § 73.801 "Broadcast regulations applicable to LPFM stations." "Section 73.318 FM blanketing interference" is listed.

Quote:


I would also concur it appears that a cell company is partnering with a radio licensee to circumvent zoning or other barriers to improve the chances of dropping in an unpopular cell site by upgrading an existing or grandfathered tower.

I was glad to see the radio antennas at the top but the site is certainly engineered for rental space ... perhaps more than for their own needs. I'm glad it won't be in my neighbor's back yard.
post #6495 of 6947
You guys are the best!
post #6496 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Heller View Post

You guys are the best!

About 90% of what has been discussed is over my head, but I continue to enjoy this Columbus discussion.
post #6497 of 6947
Thread Starter 
As of September 1, Terre Haute's channel 38 (RF ch. 39), currently known as WFXW, will switch from Fox to ABC. The station has applied for new call letters: WAWV. For more info check out this site, which includes a great detailed description of the station's history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFXW

Steve
post #6498 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldrich View Post

As of September 1, Terre Haute's channel 38 (RF ch. 39), currently known as WFXW, will switch from Fox to ABC. The station has applied for new call letters: WAWV. For more info check out this site, which includes a great detailed description of the station's history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFXW

Steve

My old tired mind seems to recall that many years ago the ABC affiliate in Terre Haute carried the Indy 500.
Wonder if they will now?
Thanks Steve. Good information!
post #6499 of 6947
The blackout rule used to be any station within 70 miles of the Motor Speedway and WBAK was within 70 miles and did not show it if I remember correctly. Their website says they will carry the race live next year.
post #6500 of 6947
Thread Starter 
With WISH -DT 17, WISH-DT's low power translator currently off the air, WKPC-DT 17, Louisville @ 110 miles was in earlier this morning and currently WQCW-DT 17, Portsmouth, OH @ 232 miles is in. WQCW "Tri-State's CW."

WIIH-DT 8 is back to sending an empty stream of info. It will not decode any audio or video. I "wish" the folks at WISH would simply put this LP-DTV out of its misery.

Steve
post #6501 of 6947
Thread Starter 
WXIN's request to increase its ERP (effective radiated power) from 700 kW to 1000 kW was very recently approved. WXIN's RF supervisor, Rick Poling, informed me today that the station will be cranking up the power sometime next month (Sept.). This might help some of the OTA viewers near Terre Haute looking for a Fox affiliate beginning Sept. 1 when WFXW, Terre Haute, is scheduled to switch its network affiliation from Fox to ABC.

Steve
post #6502 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldrich View Post

WXIN's request to increase its ERP (effective radiated power) from 700 kW to 1000 kW was very recently approved. WXIN's RF supervisor, Rick Poling, informed me today that the station will be cranking up the power sometime next month (Sept.). This might help some of the OTA viewers near Terre Haute looking for a Fox affiliate beginning Sept. 1 when WFXW, Terre Haute, is scheduled to switch its network affiliation from Fox to ABC.

Steve

Just finished reading this on Broadcasting and Cable.
"Nexstar has been involved in a major spat with Fox over affiliation agreements, resulting in multiple Nexstar owned or managed Fox affiliates going independent or, in the case of WFXW, changing affiliations. Fox has not announced which station will air its programming in Terre Haute."
I think I read somewhere else there is a possibility that FOX may use a portion of another Terre Haute station's spectrum to broadcast their programs. That would be very interesting, although I'm sure some HD fanatics (myself included) might not like the picture quality results.
Is such a scenario even possible from a regulatory point of view?
post #6503 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathill View Post

Just finished reading this on Broadcasting and Cable.
"Nexstar has been involved in a major spat with Fox over affiliation agreements, resulting in multiple Nexstar owned or managed Fox affiliates going independent or, in the case of WFXW, changing affiliations. Fox has not announced which station will air its programming in Terre Haute."
I think I read somewhere else there is a possibility that FOX may use a portion of another Terre Haute station's spectrum to broadcast their programs. That would be very interesting, although I'm sure some HD fanatics (myself included) might not like the picture quality results.
Is such a scenario even possible from a regulatory point of view?

I just noticed that Nexstar has a duopoly in the Terre Haute market (I'd like to know how that slipped thru the FCC). WTWO is owned by Nexstar, while WFXW (soon to be WAWV) is Nexstar via Mission Broadcasting. I thought WTWO would have been a choice. Since it's Nexstar, it won't happen. I wonder if LIN Broadcasting would be willing to give up The Cool TV for a Fox affiliation on WTHI. I don't see WTHI dropping CBS for Fox on the main channel. If WTHI were to drop The Cool TV, expect Fox to be SD, & not what Granite did with WISE-TV in Fort Wayne, which was have dual HD on WISE TV (NBC being 1080i on 33.1 & Fox being 720p on 33.2). WYIN in Gary & WLS-TV in Chicago both run dual 720p HD on their stations, along with WLS-TV having 1 SD subchannel & WYIN having 2 widescreen SD subchannels, & looking like crap. If WTHI doesn't pick up the Fox affiliation, then Terre Haute will have to rely on out of market Fox stations on cable & satellite (portions of the market might get WXIN from Indianapolis, WEVV Evansville, or WCCU Urbana, IL OTA).
post #6504 of 6947
Dave;
Thanks for the thorough discussion on various Terre Haute broadcasting possibilities. This could get very interesting. SD Fox football and world series would be better than no football or world series at all.
Love this forum!
Nat
post #6505 of 6947
post #6506 of 6947
New Terre Haute FOX affiliate announced.

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/2...aute-affiliate

Edit: Didn't notice Trip scooped me on this announcement.
post #6507 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/2...aute-affiliate

- Trip

Well, it certainly didn't take very long to get my question regarding the possibility of a FOX subchannel answered!
Thanks, Trip.
post #6508 of 6947
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post #6509 of 6947
With WTHI picking up the Fox affiliation in Terre Haute, I expect Fox to be SD. It's better than not having a Fox station in the market. Now the FCC needs to force Nexstar to divest a station, since there are only 5 stations licensed to the market with only 3 stations allocated for commercial use. Granite Broadcasting & Malara in Fort Wayne is another one with a duopoly, & worse, they have 3 of the big 4 networks (they don't have CBS) under their belt, along with both My (on the same subchannel as Fox) & CW. As for the non-commercial allocations in the Terre Haute market; why didn't the FCC allocate one of those closer to Terre Haute? Both of them are in the southern part of the market. People in & near Terre Haute (also northern part of the market)are lucky if they can pick up WFYI Indianapolis or WTIU Bloomington OTA. PBS in that market is otherwise only available on cable & satellite .
post #6510 of 6947
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave73 View Post

With WTHI picking up the Fox affiliation in Terre Haute, I expect Fox to be SD.

Well it may actually NOT be in SD & not necessarily for ALL viewers:
- it might actually be provided in HD for cable &/or DISH viewers, via a direct feed; this happens on some stations in many (smaller) markets
- WTHI may very well run BOTH in 720p HD; of course, they would have to covert the 1080i CBS network feed, but at least both would be in HD. I assume if this would happen, they would end up dumping their 3rd sub.

Guess you'll find out when they light it up...

Quote:


Now the FCC needs to force Nexstar to divest a station, since there are only 5 stations licensed to the market with only 3 stations allocated for commercial use.

It's JUST as bad up in Peoria:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHOI_(TV)

This left the five full-power commercial stations in the market operated by two entities.

Quote:


As for the non-commercial allocations in the Terre Haute market; why didn't the FCC allocate one of those closer to Terre Haute? Both of them are in the southern part of the market. People in & near Terre Haute (also northern part of the market)are lucky if they can pick up WFYI Indianapolis or WTIU Bloomington OTA. PBS in that market is otherwise only available on cable & satellite .

SAME problem in Rockford, IL; closest PBS's are in Madison, WI or Chicago
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