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Los Angeles, CA - OTA - Page 286

post #8551 of 9442
I also cannot pull in KIIO 10.1 and 10.4, but have no problem pulling in 10.5. I am in Mission Hills, CA and according to my TV Fool report, I should be able to pick it up with my rooftop antenna.
post #8552 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthycityboy View Post

I also cannot pull in KIIO 10.1 and 10.4, but have no problem pulling in 10.5. I am in Mission Hills, CA and according to my TV Fool report, I should be able to pick it up with my rooftop antenna.

You are too far from LA (>100 miles) to pick-up KIIO which is a low power station. Wonder what you are actually pulling in on 10.5 . Can you post your TVFool results?

Sorry, looking at the wrong Mission Hills. Disregard my comments
post #8553 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante_101 View Post

Retro shows on 10.4?

I don't get why I can receive 10.5 just fine, but none of the others (10.1 or 10.4 etc)...

10.5 is broadcast on 8.5, but maps over to 10.5.
Same way 13.2 maps over to 11.2.
post #8554 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthycityboy View Post

I also cannot pull in KIIO 10.1 and 10.4, but have no problem pulling in 10.5. I am in Mission Hills, CA and according to my TV Fool report, I should be able to pick it up with my rooftop antenna.

I have the same problem here in NW Granada Hills. KIIO 10.5 comes in much of the time, but there is never anything on 10.1 or 10.4, except during the summer, when KGTV, the ABC affiliate in San Diego, often comes in strong on subchannels 10.1, 10.2 and 10.15. TVFool does indeed list a KIIO-LD on 10, without specifying any subchannels, but it is badly obstructd (2Edge) and is listed in the gray section at the bottom of the chart. Reception is most likely virtually impossible, even with a good roof antenna, which I already am using.
post #8555 of 9442
Again, it appears oc-rdx is correct;

There is no KIIO-LD 10.5. You're receiving a sub-channel that is actually coming from KFLA-LD which should probably be virtual 8.5, but is mapping as 10.5 possibly due to an error in the PSIP data. Certainly not the first foible from KFLA which is normally the source of a comedy of them.

For instance, I try to occasionally watch RTV on their 8-2, but the lip sync is so bad to the point of resembling that of a bad Chinese martial arts picture voice translation, it makes viewing darn near insufferable.
post #8556 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post

Again, it appears oc-rdx is correct;

There is no KIIO-LD 10.5. You're receiving a sub-channel that is actually coming from KFLA-LD which should probably be virtual 8.5, but is mapping as 10.5 possibly due to an error in the PSIP data. Certainly not the first foible from KFLA which is normally the source of a comedy of them.

For instance, I try to occasionally watch RTV on their 8-2, but the lip sync is so bad to the point of resembling that of a bad Chinese martial arts picture voice translation, it makes viewing darn near insufferable.

No, I am pretty certain that I did indeed see the broadcast on 10.5 identifying itself as KIIO in the past, although there is no identification given at the present time. I am not disputing that it is being mapped over from 8.5. I would have suspected all along something of this nature to be the case. BTW I think you meant to say "KFLA-LD which should probably be 8.5, but is mapping as virtual 10.5". It is channel 10 in this case which would be the virtual channel.
post #8557 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisonS View Post

No, I am pretty certain that I did indeed see the broadcast on 10.5 identifying itself as KIIO in the past, although there is no identification given at the present time. I am not disputing that it is being mapped over from 8.5. I would have suspected such to be the case. I think you meant to say "KFLA-LD which should probably be 8.5, but is mapping as virtual 10.5". It is channel 10 in this case which would be the virtual channel.

8.5 maps to virtual 10.5 KIIO-5.

The strangest one is virtual 23.4 which is RF49.4. The rest of RF 49 maps over to virtual 57.1 thru 57.9. There is even a 57.4.
post #8558 of 9442
OK, well ... I'm a bit confused here;

I'm assuming that 8.5 refers to KFLA's RF physical (that is, VHF channel 8 stream 5 of their TS)

But are you guys saying that this is intentionally mapped to virtual 10.5? That KFLA is using some of its bandwidth to supply KIIO an additional sub-channel ala KTTV's use of KCOP for their secondary sub-channel virtual 11-2?

Now I know why KTTV is doing it, but why is KFLA lending bandwidth to KIIO this way?

Are they in association with each other or something?
post #8559 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post

OK, well ... I'm a bit confused here;

I'm assuming that 8.5 refers to KFLA's RF physical (that is, VHF channel 8 stream 5 of their TS)

But are you guys saying that this is intentionally mapped to virtual 10.5? That KFLA is using some of its bandwidth to supply KIIO an additional sub-channel ala KTTV's use of KCOP for their secondary sub-channel virtual 11-2?

Now I know why KTTV is doing it, but why is KFLA lending bandwidth to KIIO this way?

Are they in association with each other or something?

You have it right. Actually, there are other cases in which one station's subchannel carries the call sign of another station. For example consider KXLA which carries ten subchannels on virtual ch 44 (real ch 51). While ch 44.1 is identified as KXLA-DT and 44.2 as KXLADT2, yet ch 44.10 is identified as KVMD-DT. Obviously, there must be some sort of agreement between the two stations, as well as with the FCC.
post #8560 of 9442
The rules concerning legal identification are in Title 47, Part 73 of the CFR here. The only legal IDs are conveyed visually and/or aurally. The seven-character name of a virtual channel is simply text and has no legal meaning. The seven rules governing major channel numbers start on page 92 of ATSC Standard a/65 found here (PDF). Condition 7 covers what we are talking about, which means that it is expressly permitted unless it causes a collision in the market.

Keep in mind that some of the LPTVs and Class A stations cover only a portion of the metro, so getting space on another station enables coverage of other areas, just like a translator would.
post #8561 of 9442
Why would you want to use a UHF only antenna to try and pick up VHF channels?

Change to a decent UHF/VHF antenna - radio shack antennas are actually quite good. Remove the pre-amp, it will just increase the noise floor, and enjoy free off air TV!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryJC View Post

Because of terrain, my prospects for successful DTV reception didn't seem good. A few weeks back, I searched archives in this forum for threads about local installations.

Inspired by a few threads in the archives, I recently installed an OTA antenna for my Dish 6000 to receive the local Los Angeles DTV broadcasts. I don't have clear line of sight to Mount Wilson, which is 46 miles distant. (For local readers familiar with the area, I'm in hilly terrain above the intersection of Trabuco Road and Lake Forest Drive in Lake Forest.) There's a ridge 0.3 miles away that's 44 feet higher than the elevation at my house, as measured with a GPS. Plus, the ridge has trees and 2-story apartments, offset somewhat since my roof-mounted antenna is 25 feet off the ground. Beyond the ridge, there's nothing else in the way.

I installed a Radio Shack 15-2160 yagi with one of their 30dB mast-mounted pre-amps. I used a Winegard DS-3000 J-pipe mount that's securely bolted to the fascia on the eave of my roof line. This mount is nearly identical to the mounts that come standard with Dish Network SATV dishes, except the pipe is longer and can be cut to length. I found this mount online at dishplace.com. Starkelectronics.com sells them for less, but was out of stock.

I've had mixed results with DTV reception... KABC, KNBC, KTLA(WB) are consistently in the high 70s to high 80s. KCET(PBS) is usually in the low to mid 60s and exhibits occasional dropouts. KCOP(UPN) is often 55 to 65 and also exhibits some dropouts. Most of the time, I can't receive KCBS or KTTV(FOX) at all. I've never received a KCAL9 (local independent) DTV broadcast, but I haven't performed automatic DTV searches since the antenna installation, either. Numerous Hispanic stations have strong DTV signal levels, but these don't interest me. There is some variation in signal consitions, as would be expected.

I'm not confident that my antenna orientation is optumum, either. For work, I occasionally rent a spectrum analyzer. Sure wish I had one now to help with antenna orientation! Or, that Telemann HiPix HTPC card that can show concurrent receive signal levels for all DTV stations!!

Regarding picture quality...
I noticed that even SD OTA broadcasts are significantly better than the corresponding local station broadcasts from Dish Network. I suspect that Dish is compressing signal bandwidth more than the local OTA transmitters.

I believe KABC is broadcasting 720i format while the others are boradcasting 1080i. Right? Does this explain why KABC SD fills the screen while the other stations' SD has bands at the sides?

Lessons learned...
I'll mention a few antenna complications I encountered. A warning might help others...

1. Until halfway through the installation process, I realized that some stations don't broadcast DTV 24/7 - KCET(PBS) for one, maybe there are other stations. It's hard to find stations that aren't broadcasting!! (duh)

2. I used the u-bolt clamp that comes with the Shadio Rack Yagi, and it was a tight fit over the Winegard mast. This presented some problems. I used a compass to initially aim the antenna boom, then noticed that the azimuth would change when tightening the two u-bolt nuts! Tighten the rear-facing nut, and the antenna boom would turn to the left. Tighten the front nut, and the boom would move right! This was not a minor effect. I had to keep checking azimuth with the compass, and carefully alternate tightening. Even then it was not an exact, known azimuth adjustment.

3. Before mounting the antenna, I used a bubble level to make sure the mast pipe was plumb. I was surprised that this did not assure consistent antenna elevation because of the antenna's u-bolt clamp! After numerous trials with strange results, I discovered that antenna elevation was changing significantly with each azimuth adjustment. Finally, I ended up setting elevation after each azimuth adjustment by (a) loosening the J-pipe at the mounting plate, (b) reading a bubble level laid on the antenna boom while tilting the mast as necessary to get the desired elevation, and (c) tightening the J-pipe mount with an eye on the bubble level to make sure it stays at the desired tilt. Once the J-pipe mount was tight, the elevation was rock solid.

4. Due to problems 2 and 3 above, I wasted two hours making small antenna adjustments with large introduced errors. Only the last few trials had reliable azimuth and elevation settings. Since rain was threatening when I performed my antenna adjustments, I need another round of tests to optimize antenna orientation. Then, I'll consider next steps.

The RS Yagi is quite sensitive to orientation. From my house, the azimuth spread is only a quarter degree to cover all operating DTV stations on Mt Wilson. The KCBS tower is offset from the others (as seen from my house) accounting for roughly half of this spread. This might explain why I rarely "see" KCBS.

The Radio Shack yagi specs do not provide a gain/azimuth plot, but I'd expect this antenna to have a narrow frontal lobe. I am surprised how sensitive some DTV stations are to antenna orientation, while others seem insensitive.

I used the lat-lon coordinates at an online geodetic distance calculator (dead link today) to compute the azimuth to each local DTV antenna. This showed me the spatial relationship between the stations as they range from WNW to NNW, as viewed from my house, which explains how antenna azimuth adjustment might change reception for the various stations.

I have wondered if all these stations are operating at their full licensed output power.

Comment on Radio Shack equipment: In the past I designed products that were sold by RS. Their specifications and acceptance criteria are significantly higher than most people would assume. Their products are probably suitable for many applications, and there's no reason to spend more unless it's necessary. That yagi retails for $21.99, an inexpensive experiment.

I realize my installation my be pushing the envelope due to marginal OTA conditions. If ongoing experiments with antenna orientation don't improve my OTA reception, I might consider a better antenna and/or ChannelMaster UHF-only pre-amp.

All comments welcome...
Gary
post #8562 of 9442
GaryJC,

You need to evaluate your potential reception conditions using the online tool at TVFool.com here. Enter your exact address. On the resulting Google map, ensure that the icon points to your location. Zoom in as needed to do this. Update the antenna height above ground, then click the "make radar plot" button. Bookmark the page that opens. Share that URL with us if you want. Read the signal analysis FAQ if you don't understand something.

Two tips: 1) you can show bearings to the transmitter locations on the Google map. By zooming in far enough, you can get some landmarks for aiming. 2) if you do not have line of sight, you would do well to aim the antenna UP by 10 degrees or so.

You should do well with an Antenna Craft HBU-22 or -33.
post #8563 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhugh View Post

Why would you want to use a UHF only antenna to try and pick up VHF channels?

Change to a decent UHF/VHF antenna - radio shack antennas are actually quite good. Remove the pre-amp, it will just increase the noise floor, and enjoy free off air TV!


Yes I agree and you don't have to spend to much ethier. Last 2 years I've used RCA ANT751R Outdoor Antenna still available on amazon for $46.54 , I have mine mount to 20 foot mast off the ground and I have zero issues with pulling in all the hd ota channels in the 91775 zip code. Ive got line of site of the Mt. Wilson transmitters but live in a old lath and plaster house that make reception with even amplified rabbited ear antennas dodgey at best. So with about a 80.00 investment I now have free hd tv and with new services Like Amazon instant video and other websites I see zero need pricey cable or sat tv.
post #8564 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhugh View Post

Why would you want to use a UHF only antenna to try and pick up VHF channels?

Change to a decent UHF/VHF antenna - radio shack antennas are actually quite good. Remove the pre-amp, it will just increase the noise floor, and enjoy free off air TV!

Please note that you're responding to a post that is over 9 years old. At that time all the digital broadcasts were on UHF. A lot has changed since. I suspect that the OP has moved on by now!
post #8565 of 9442
Looks like KMEX Channel 34 will get English subtitles starting next week.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...663149292.html
post #8566 of 9442
The subtitles seem to be only for Univision's prime time dramas. Not sure if it will make much of a difference though. From my unscientific observations, it seems like most people here would rather have dubs (even bad ones) than have subtitles. Maybe they will even Americanize the subs so it seems like the series is taking place in the U.S.
post #8567 of 9442
Im out here in Temecula and I have a CM 4228 with preamp mounted on my roof and 5 years ago I got all of the LA stations no problem but this weekend I re-mounted it and now Im getting zero signal strength on KABC, KCOP, KTTV and KCAL.

But notables such as KCBS, KNBC, KCET, and KTLA are all coming in with 75% to 85% signal strength.

I did some digging in this thread and noticed that the channels Im not getting all switched to VHF. Shouldn't the CM 4228 be able to get VHF? If not what are my options for a long range VHF/UHF combo antenna?

Im roughly 70 miles from Mt Wilson.
post #8568 of 9442
I rescanned today and got 109 channels, but not 8 KFLA. There are three channels with nothing there: 28-9, 28-10, and 41-7. Is KCET planning on starting two more channels?
post #8569 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcello696 View Post

Im out here in Temecula and I have a CM 4228 with preamp mounted on my roof and 5 years ago I got all of the LA stations no problem but this weekend I re-mounted it and now Im getting zero signal strength on KABC, KCOP, KTTV and KCAL.

But notables such as KCBS, KNBC, KCET, and KTLA are all coming in with 75% to 85% signal strength.

I did some digging in this thread and noticed that the channels Im not getting all switched to VHF. Shouldn't the CM 4228 be able to get VHF? If not what are my options for a long range VHF/UHF combo antenna?

Im roughly 70 miles from Mt Wilson.

I'm using a CM4228 in my attic with a CM7777 preamp and can get all the LA VHF signals except for KFLA 8, which I think is a low power station, or at least not aimed for south Orange County due to KFMB 8 in San Diego.

I think there is a Winegard antenna that is highly recommended for VHF/UHF, don't recall the model number.
post #8570 of 9442
The 4228 is a UHF antenna that gets a bit of high VHF reception (mostly on channels 10-13), especially if you wire tie the reflectors together. It's not going to compare with a real high VHF antenna, but if you have a strong signal and a tuner that handles multipath well then it might be enough. The 4228 is still one of the best UHF antennas in existence, so if you've got room and don't mind having 2 separate antennas, you might just want to add a high VHF only antenna like the Winegard YA-1713 or Antennacraft Y10-7-13 and use a UVSJ to combine with the 4228. If you don't want to deal with separate antennas, then look at the Winegard HD7698P, Channel Master CM2020, or Antennacraft HBU44.
post #8571 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

The 4228 is a UHF antenna that gets a bit of high VHF reception (mostly on channels 10-13), especially if you wire tie the reflectors together. It's not going to compare with a real high VHF antenna, but if you have a strong signal and a tuner that handles multipath well then it might be enough. The 4228 is still one of the best UHF antennas in existence, so if you've got room and don't mind having 2 separate antennas, you might just want to add a high VHF only antenna like the Winegard YA-1713 or Antennacraft Y10-7-13 and use a UVSJ to combine with the 4228. If you don't want to deal with separate antennas, then look at the Winegard HD7698P, Channel Master CM2020, or Antennacraft HBU44.


thank you! I'll grab a VHF antenna
post #8572 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkpl View Post

I rescanned today and got 109 channels, but not 8 KFLA. There are three channels with nothing there: 28-9, 28-10, and 41-7. Is KCET planning on starting two more channels?

KCET 28-9 and 10, are false channels generated by the OTA "UpdateTV" service.

http://www.updatelogic.com/network.html

Don't know what 41-7 could be, not receiving that one at all here in South L.A. At least not from Mt. Wilson.
post #8573 of 9442
anyone have experience with the ClearStream 5 VHF antenna? Got a great deal on one and Im looking to pair it with my Channel Master 4228. Any suggestions on the best way to combine them? I have an older model CM 7777 preamp so it doesn't have the seperate VHF and UHF inputs and Im wondering if I can get away with using a splitter to combine the antenna signals and send them to the preamp or should I just spend $$$ and pickup a preamp with VHF and UHF inputs?

any suggestions would really be appreciated, thanks!
post #8574 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcello696 View Post

anyone have experience with the ClearStream 5 VHF antenna? Got a great deal on one and Im looking to pair it with my Channel Master 4228. Any suggestions on the best way to combine them? I have an older model CM 7777 preamp so it doesn't have the seperate VHF and UHF inputs and Im wondering if I can get away with using a splitter to combine the antenna signals and send them to the preamp or should I just spend $$$ and pickup a preamp with VHF and UHF inputs?

any suggestions would really be appreciated, thanks!

At your location where the TV signals are weak, you need to maintain the strength of the signals by using a preamp with separate inputs. Using a splitter with its losses could cause you to lose stations that were just above the detection threshold. You could use a UVSJ splitter/combiner if you don't want to get another preamp, it has a very small insertion loss.
post #8575 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

At your location where the TV signals are weak, you need to maintain the strength of the signals by using a preamp with separate inputs. Using a splitter with its losses could cause you to lose stations that were just above the detection threshold. You could use a UVSJ splitter/combiner if you don't want to get another preamp, it has a very small insertion loss.


thanks for the advice, looks like the Clearstream 5 comes with a UVSJ

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/..._combiner.html

I'll try this with my existing preamp first and if it fails I'll buy a new preamp with vhf/uhf inputs.
post #8576 of 9442
I had a power amp attached to my RCA ANT751R Outdoor Antenna and all it did was increase the signal noise and I lost channels . I took off the power amp everything came though clearly actually more channels then I wanted (all sorts of crazy foreign languages channels its a mystery who the audience is? ) . I get so many channels now its a really bother every time channels move around and I have to rescan (like the 8's or the 56's move programing around) its a ten minute job deleting a the unwanted garbage channels on my tv and tivo tuners lol. I think get a traditional larger antenna outdoors would suit most if you do get a amp you need to get a good quality amp because the cheap ones just strength the bad signal noise.
post #8577 of 9442
Preamps can and will overload with strong signal levels....and the higher the Gain, the more likely
it will overload, resulting in Intermod Noise desensitizing the weaker channel positions. Most are
intended for RURAL locations and must be chosen carefully to maximize the SFDR (Spurious Free
Dynamic Range):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota

============================================================ ==========
PS: Only 47% of people 18-yo & older in Los Angeles County speak English at home, per 2000 Census stats:
http://www.laalmanac.com/population/po47.htm
Spanish 35%, Chinese 3.5%, Tagalog 2.5% (Philippines), Korean 2.0%, Armenian 1.6%, Vietnamese 0.9%,
Persian 0.8%, Japanese 0.8%, Russian 0.6%, French 0.5%, German 0.4%, Italian 0.3%, Cambodian 0.3%, et. al.
Each percentage point is just under 69,000 adults plus perhaps as many kids under 18.

Some of these people have a long history in California and some were recent immigrants looking for work
or joining relatives. And some were refugees from wars, famine, religious persecution and ethnic cleansing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_diaspora [Just one example from WW-I era.]

FREE OTA is very popular compared to the expensive (and limited) foreign language channels on Cable & SAT.
post #8578 of 9442
waiting on a new CM7778 preamp to arrive but since I picked up a Clearstream 5 antenna I mounted it on my roof and I'm happy to report I'm getting all the UHF and VHF LA stations except KCAL, KCOP and KFLA. Being 70+ miles away from MT Wilson and not using a preamp, color me impressed with this antenna!
post #8579 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcello696 View Post

waiting on a new CM7778 preamp to arrive but since I picked up a Clearstream 5 antenna I mounted it on my roof and I'm happy to report I'm getting all the UHF and VHF LA stations except KCAL, KCOP and KFLA. Being 70+ miles away from MT Wilson and not using a preamp, color me impressed with this antenna!

Trust me, you aren't missing a thing on KFLA. KCAL not showing up is a little surprising as it's one of the better performers in the VHF spectrum, but you are near the digital cliff at 70 miles. Once you get your preamp, make a go solely for KCAL reception and the rest on the big Vs will likely fall right into line as well. Good luck.
post #8580 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcello696 View Post

waiting on a new CM7778 preamp to arrive but since I picked up a Clearstream 5 antenna I mounted it on my roof and I'm happy to report I'm getting all the UHF and VHF LA stations except KCAL, KCOP and KFLA. Being 70+ miles away from MT Wilson and not using a preamp, color me impressed with this antenna!

Well I use to like KFLA RTV channel and its retro tv programing it's back to the 8.2 they changed the RTV line up and its not so hot anymore . But even if you a fan of Korean language programing (8.1) I doubt you get much even with the preamp. Because in march or April 2011 KFLA based on a bad radio engineering survey moved there new high power transmitter/ antennae to a new lower position on Mt Wilson (which isn't really a mountain) and lost most of the eastern San Gabriel valley and anywhere close to the foothills. My friend lives in Covina Ca. and get zero reception for KFLA channels. KFLA fired the radio engineer who did the survey but there still waiting for FCC approval to raise their Mt.Wilson antenna again. Were I live in San Gabriel CA I still get KFLA stations, the only one I watch is RTV 8.2 but at random times of the day I get loads of audio drop out were it makes the program like "The Saint" unwatchable. If you like retro tv 5.2 and 56.3 area the better bets for quality retro TV (which I'm a horrible junkie of LOL ) Yeah hope you can get Kcal though with your preamp they got great news, Laker /Baseball games for free .
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