Los Angeles, CA - OTA - Page 288

OK and thanks.

While not a suggestion for a specific antenna, I find that Fry's has a decent selection of real antennas (i.e. true outdoor antennas by real brands like Winegard and Channel Master) and their return policy is generally very permissive.

Hello Folks,

I recently replaced my parent's 10-year old Sony 36" analog tube set with a new 40" Hitachi LCD with built-in ATSC tuner. After scanning for channels I found I only got channels 2-5 and 22-69. I seem to be missing 7-18. This is in the VHF-HI band area. I know it's not the tuner in the new TV as I had the same problem with a small LCD-TV they used as a temp replacement for a week or so before the new TV arrived. I initially thought it was a problem with the cheap temp TV. They have a large VHF/UHF outdoor antenna mounted on the roof of a two-story home with an unobstructed view of Mt. Wilson transmission towers. I live nearby with a similar configuration and receive all channels. Any ideas why the VHF-HI band is missing?

Thank you,
RangerDave

One of those "cycle the power" recommendations, but be sure the tuner is set for AIR and not CABLE. Also, are you sure that you're talking about the actual RF channels used or what they are labelled as (e.g., 2-1)? Remember that those are not necessarily the same anymore.

Run a report from TVFool.com with your exact address for assistance in debugging your situation. The Signal Analysis FAQ they provide is excellent.

Thank you for the reply, Dave Loudin.

The tuner is set for AIR, as the TV can tune 2-1, 4-1, 4-2, 5-1, 5-2, 5-3, then skips to 22-1. I cannot tune 7-x, 9-x, 11-x or 13-x. They are missing in the channel lineup display. I don't really care about channels 14-x to 21-x missing.

According to this website, http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ the missing channels are virtual channels operating in the VHF-HI band range.

I live 2 miles north of my parents and am able to receive all channels without any problems. I'm just curious as to why some channels are missing. Is there a problem with the antenna, the cable, a connector? Any ideas?

What is your antenna?

It's either UHF-only or the VHF section is non-operational due to some fault.

Channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 are actually on VHF RF frequencies. All the others including 2.1, 4.x and 5.x are on UHF. But KTTV has 11.2 coming from a UHF frequency and you aren't getting that?

11.2 comes from 13, not from a UHF frequency.

- Trip

Ah, my goof. Thanks.

VHF-HI is 7-13. UHF TV starts with 14, but the lower UHF channels are assigned to public safety in the LA DMA. The lowest UHF TV channel in LA is 18, which you should be getting since you're getting all the other UHF channels. Maybe that one is weak in your location. 2-5 are being broadcast on UHF frequencies, which is why you are getting them as well.


I agree with ProjectSHO89. It sounds like you're not getting any VHF reception with that antenna.

Thank you for all the replies. I guess I will have to get out the big ladder and climb up on the 2nd story roof to check out the antenna for any possible damage before replacing it.

RangerDave

Can you post a picture of the antenna?

Hello Ennui -

I don't think I have enough posts to this forum to post a pic of the antenna. It's your basic VHF/UHF antenna with long horizontal oriented v-shaped elements on the boom for VHF and the shorter elements spread top and bottom at the end for UHF. The overall length is about 8-feet, I believe. There are probably 60+ total elements on the antenna. I live 2 miles closer to Mt Wilson and get all my stations with a 5-foot boom VHF/UHF antenna with half the number of elements. That's why I don't understand why my parent's TV isn't pulling in all the stations. Obviously something is wrong, so I'll get the ladder out and visually inspect the antenna and cable hookup for anomolies. It's been on the roof for 20 years, so maybe it's just time for a new antenna. They have Verizon FIOS w/DVR service, so they are receiving the missing stations. I'd just like to have the OTA setup working normally for them so they don't complain in the future.

Thanks again for all the replies.
RangerDave

RF27 is now active. Same 4 channels as RF25 and maps to channel 25. So I now have two each of channel 25.1 thru 25.4.

Yep, my DTV Pal DVR picked this up as well. Not channels I would watch though. Heh.

Be sure to check all the terminations, inside and out, and the balun. It may be something as simple as that. After 20 years I'd probably just re-terminate anyway.

FYI new datas:
Someone told me to look up Google Earth (GE) with its overlays. I forgot about those from years ago that I downloaded and installed a few years ago. I loaded up old GE and explored the new home location. Yikes, I think that looks bad (blue or no colors): http://i.imgur.com/lbqXV.jpg ... I assume blue is bad? Also, I noticed GE said 967 feet for its elevation.

Also, is http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11646220 from Costco as an outdoor/attic antenna?

FYI, I just found out that this tower acts as a translator for KVMD station. That explains why I can easily get channel 31.x OTA with a digital portal TV with single rabbit ear (not two ears) antenna. It is only about half of a mile! Thanks to http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?p=20635 for the research.

I wished all stations would bring translators over here. [grin]

Does anyone know of a good house antennae to use like in the attic that is returnable easily like at local Best Buy, Fry's Electronics, Costco, Walmart, Radio Shack, Sears, and other stores?

Costco only had one, very low gain TV Antenna...ferget it.

BestBuy's best choice was RCA ANT741, but it was way overpriced.

Walmart also carries RCA ANT741, on sale now for $30. It's about 36 x 36-inches,
with medium Gain in both Hi-VHF (Ch7-13) and UHF Bands. It's a HUGE
leap forward from Rabbit Ears and might be all you need.....
Use their Brick&Mortar Stock Checker:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Suburb...-Mast/10828410

Although RCA doesn't provide specs, I've modeled it enough to see that it's
about the SAME as the Winegard HD7000R, a large Ch2-69 model from which
it was derived by shortening the VHF elements to delete Ch2-6+FM performance:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf

==================================================
If ANT-751 doesn't do the job [perhaps too much loss in your attic], there
are several higher Gain antennas to chose from:

Fry's: For BOTH Hi-VHF and UHF Band coverage, I would chose CM4228HD,
although price is more than TRIPLE that of the ANT-751, Hi-VHF Gain would be
about the same but much higher Gain for UHF. If Hi-VHF is still a problem,
you could add a hi-gain Hi-VHF only antenna, such as YA-1713 or Y10-7-13.
BTW: If Ch9 is a problem, you might first try the RF Combiner Mod:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl

CM4228HD is about $100, with certainly higher UHF performance
than the Combo antennas from Channel Master or Winegard....which
could be difficult to mount in the desired direction, depending on the attic....
But if that is your preference, Fry's MIGHT carry the smaller Hi-VHF/UHF
CM-2018 ($70) or W-G HD7694P ($60) or somewhat longer HD7697P ($100).
[MONSTER Ch2-69 C-M Advantage are WAY TOO BIG....and no longer need Ch2-6.]

Thank you for the detailed list!

RCA ANT-751 (not ANT-741 since not found) = $29.54 (Walmart; out of stock), $79.99 (Fry's Electronics), and $79.99 (Best Buy)
Channel Master/CM-2018 = $58 (Walmart)
Winegard HD7694P = $59.99 (Fry's Electronics)
Winegard HD7697P = $99.99 (Fry's Electronics)

ChannelMaster Advantage are too big? Some of them don't look big: http://www.walmart.com/search/search...ster+Advantage ... And prices are decent.

Someone suggested Winegard HD7084P antenna, but $169.99. Is it worth trying that one too? Anything from Radio Shack?

Sorry about the typo...it's RCA ANT-751, not 741.
BTW: You can have it shipped to your local Walmart for no extra charge
and return it to the store for refund if you are not satisfied:
http://www.walmart.com/cp/Returns-Policy/538459

It's becoming more and more difficult to find antenna specs from the manu's.
Here is C-M's 2008 Catalog, with specs for all antennas summarized on pg6:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cm2008.pdf
More info found at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Note smallest Advantage (CM-3016) is 83.6-in WIDE...others 95-in.
That makes it even more difficult to ALIGN in-between the braces in a typical attic.

Also note that C-M does NOT provide Gain specs for their new CM-5xxx series.
Since they're new, they cost a lot more....and I didn't see any on Fry's website.
Also note that Fry's in-house selection at OUR stores is very limited and seems
to change from visit to visit....but they always seem to have obsolete Advantages....

I thought we were discussing an upgrade from your indoor antenna,
rather than the biggest, MONSTER antenna that belongs outdoors on a mast.

Spec sheet for W-G HD7084P et. al. can be found here. It's 110-in WIDE, 131-in BOOM
and 25.5-in TALL, with less UHF Gain than compact CM4228 and about same Hi-VHF:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/hdtv-...r-antennas.php

CM4228HD cost is lower...even if you add YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 Hi-VHF Hi-Gain antenna.
Although it's difficult to find unequivocal "proof", I believe the distributed bow-ties
also have an advantage in the multipath frequently encountered in attics....some of
them might be in a NULL, and others probably NOT....

=======================================================
BTW: I should also mention an easy to construct DIY project, the M4 Super-4-Bay Bowtie:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html [Note partial "kits".]
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m4swp
The whisker length is optimized for the new UHF Band, rather than the older 4-Bay
and 8-Bay antennas (e.g. CM4221HD and CM4228HD) which were optimized for the
OLD UHF Band, resulting in loss of Gain in the lower UHF Band. The Reflector in the
M4 is 36-in wide x 40-in tall, which optimizes performance in the Hi-VHF Band much
better then the narrower Reflectors in the CM4221HD and CM4228HD. If you compare
Gain curves you will be surprised to see that the M4 Super-4-Bay Bowtie greatly
exceeds the performance of ANY commercial 8-Bay antenna for both UHF & Hi-VHF.
AND it's far more compact than ANY of the other Combo Hi-VHF/UHF Antennas....
It could even be put on a rotator in the attic if that is desired....

Upgrade? Sure if you want to but maybe it is better to start from scratch for the new place. I am sure the attic is big enough. If not, then roof.

phildaant, are you talking about the place with the really crummy TVFool signal analysis? If so, you should not waste your time with an attic install. Mt. Wilson is shadowed by a hill, so you will be hard-pressed to get anything but some scattered VHF channels from that site. You might be better off pointing a VHF antenna at 340 degrees and a UHF/VHF antenna at 150 degrees to try for the San Diego stations. They have better NMs at your location!

Yes, that's correct. OK, let's try roof top types then.

A full-band antenna like the ChannelMaster CM-30xx series or the Winegard 7084 is a terrible choice for the 90% of the country that isn't trying to pick up a low VHF station. All that extra size is for the low VHF elements and at best does nothing for the high VHF/UHF channels, and at worst significantly degrades performance compared to a high VHF/UHF only antenna like the CM-20xx series or the HD769 series.

My recommendations remain same if roof mounted...highest Gain AND lowest Cost:
CM4228HD or DIY M4 Super-4-Bay with (optional, if needed) YA-1713 or Y10-7-13,
with HLSJ VHF/UHF Diplexer/Combiner.

You might also want to add A-D 91XG UHF antenna to that list, but I don't think
it is available at a Brick&Mortar, although you might find W-G HD-9032 UHF Yagi
at a specialty/installation shop. If you are willing to shop on-line, add Antennacraft
HBU-xx series to the list of available medium Gain Hi-VHF/UHF Combo antennas:
http://www.antennacraft.com/Antennas/AntennasHBU.html
They might even be carried/ordered at some of your local Radio Shack stores...

Thanks. Darn, Frys doesn't carry CM4228HD. I will keep looking... Maybe I should try my old DB2, from 2005, to see if it can get anything better than the single rabbit ear antenna.

Call around to several different Fry's stores...and inquire re WHEN they expect more stock....

How about a DIY M4 using Aluminum Foil covered Cardboard...just to see what you get????
You might get some construction tips in the fol. fairly long thread:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=100137

PS: DB-2 has low-moderate UHF Gain...and even some Hi-VHF Gain, but directed to the REAR:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...refl/addb2refl

There are three models according to http://www.radioshack.com/search/ind...ennacraft&sr=1 , but only two are in my local Radio Shack stores:
33: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3740646
55: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=3928468

Should I try this 55 model for the most expensive and powerful one?

Also, I uploaded three photographs/photos. of the upcoming house at http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/ from this morning after 7:43 AM PST. They show two NW views (about 333 degrees on a very old compass [yea, I brought one]). As you can see with two of them, there is a big hill with many trees from the ground level. Also, this is the same view I pointed at to get some KABC7 and KTTV11 with a portable DTV with its single rabbit ear antenna (horizontal). Obviously, channel 31.x worked easily here the best due to its half mile to its NE translator near by. I also took a shot of the house roof. All three were from the ground level in front of the garage.