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Los Angeles, CA - OTA - Page 306

post #9151 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb1980 View Post

I think we are talking about the same thing...

I do NOT like "smushed" 16:9 where your TV has to be on its 16:9 mode for it to be proper. This is the trend and I do not like it... many SD programs and entire channels are shown like this. It's clearly supposed to be a 4:3 frame, and the signal is coded that way, but they've packed a 16:9 picture in there.

I DO like "real" 16:9 SD (will display as such in the banner on LG TVs) that the "Set by program" mode will detect and display in 16:9, even when other true-4:3 SD programming displays in 4:3. I think that is anamorphic. I WISH that was the trend! If I understand the process correctly, there is no difference in bandwidth, but I am not 100% sure.

OK, just checked to be sure;

A much easier method to check for the native aspect ratio of a received signal on the HDTV set, but one dependent on the accuracy of the PSIP data, is to simply observe the display and check it against the reported aspect ratio by the program's PSIP info. which most all HD sets can display.

For instance if a 16:9 image is squished inside a 4:3 frame and the PSIP is reporting the signal as 4:3, then its anamophic. If the data reports it as 16:9 then its an actual widescreen SD signal but the TV is defaulting to 4:3 and squishing it.

Whenever my HDTV is tuned to 4-2 COZI or any other 16:9 SD program its squished to 4:3 , yet the PSIP info. reports them as a 16:9 signal letting me know the TV is squeezing the picture by defaulting to a display format of 4:3 due to its SD resolution.
post #9152 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb1980 View Post

With my LG TV:

16:9 makes EVERYTHING 16:9, whether it should be or not.
4:3 makes EVERYTHING 4:3, whether it should be or not.
Screen Fit is the same as 16:9 EXCEPT it's the full picture, no overscan
Set By Program uses the "flag" that broadcasters put on the signal, so if a 16:9 SD signal is PROPERLY flagged as 16:9
and a few Zoom features.

In the OTA pictures, you can see different scenarios. There are comments on each picture. The Directv pictures also demonstrate 16:9 SD vs 4:3 SD. This is for those who question if a TV can figure it out. It can - if it's told.
20130624_194425.jpg 1156k .jpg file
20130624_194552.jpg 799k .jpg file
20130624_201307.jpg 1048k .jpg file
20130624_201339.jpg 1297k .jpg file
20130624_195254.jpg 1600k .jpg file
20130624_195328.jpg 1061k .jpg file

Note: I have my antenna input set to "set by program" and by Directv HR34 Genie set to "pillar box" and both are able to distinguish between 16:9 SD and 4:3 when the broadcaster flags it as such. The HDMI input is set to Screen fit and the entire picture is shown without overscan.

Thanks for those images ejb1980;

I see the key TV mode you list above that will result in proper formatting for a widescreen SD signal is this one "Set By Program" which is a surprise to me as I haven't seen this option on any other HDTV set to my knowledge. On STB receivers almost exclusively for sure, but not TVs. Therefore when I tune to a 16:9 SD channel like local 4-2 COZI TV here, all my sets default to 4:3 and squeeze the image.

Sorry to see your WXLI 43-1 anamophically squeezed that way. Don't know why the (or any other for that matter) station is doing that since there is no advantage to bandwidth savings or any other. And why the sub-channel numbers are reversed like that with the main HD one on 43-2 is strange as well.

Also surprised to see DIRECTV's SD feed of Univision West as 16:9 squeezed into 4:3 (I don't subscribe to it so I can't see it smile.gif ) . DIRECTV is pretty consistent about making sure their feeds are properly formatted. Their SD feeds are usually center-cut or letter-boxed into 4:3 regardless of the format of the source feeding their broadcast centers.

Though I do have one DIRECTV provided SD local here, KLIM-64, that for some reason is 16:9 squeezed into 4:3.
Edited by HoTatII - 6/25/13 at 10:57am
post #9153 of 9442
Perhaps they are broadcasting that way and Directv is just passing it on.

I am not sure why the TCT affiliates are "backwards" - the -1 channel is almost the same as the national feed on Directv channel 377, but the local affiliates have local Christian programming in the pre-prime time evenings. Some affiliates of UNCTV (PBS) are backwards, too. I have gathered from similar forums that this is done in DMAs where there are two full power UNCTV transmitters to get a subchannel's programming on Dish Network. Directv carries the -1 and -3 UNCTV channels in all markets, although they show the -3 as -2.... does that make sense?

I wouldn't mind having Cozi and Movies. They seem pretty legit.
post #9154 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post

But HDTV sets do produce the appearance of a 16:9 anamorphic image when they receive a 16:9 SD signal by defaulting to a 4:3 display setting and thus squeezing it, because they base their display setting on the signal's resolution, not it's aspect ratio.

No, not all sets do this. Some, like the Pioneer Elite, default to whatever screen format the user has currently selected for SD. It may be either 4:3 or it may be a widescreen format.
Quote:
The way the STB functions should be able to prove the TV set is doing the squeeze not the station.

Huh?? I think it proves just the opposite!

Quote:
I If the 16:9 display option is selected in the setup and a 16:9 signal is received, either in SD or HD, you cannot change the format with the user control.

Oh, but you can change it! You can change the format regardless whether the display option is 16:9 or 4:3. I even tried it with both display options!
Quote:
If you have 16:9 selected in the setup, tune your STB to 4-2 COZI, or the other widescreen stations I mentioned earlier and try to change the format. It most likely won't move. However if you switch to a 4:3 station like 5-2,13-3 or the many others like you listed previously the format control should be able to change the image between zoom, pillar, stretch, etc.

Again, I have no trouble at all, in changing the format, regardless whether the display option has been set to 16:9 or 4:3.
Quote:
Yes, but as a "default" setting all SD signals irrespective aspect ratio the PE and all other HDTVs I'm aware of will display them in a 4:3 display frame thus squeezing any SD 16:9 signals to 4:3.

All HD ones default to a wide display setting as the TV assumes they're in 16:9.

No, not all of them do. The PE will only default to 4:3 on SD broadcasts if the user has selected 4:3 from the display menu. It will continue to do so only until the user changes setting for SD channels again.
Quote:
Now if you change the default SD display settings on the PE to widescreen, then 16:9 SD signals should display correctly, but now all 4:3 SD ones will be stretched to 16:9 as well when tuned to.

There is no setting called “widescreen” on the PE. If you select the “Zoom” option, letterboxed 16:9 will fill the screen nicely, without any stretching. Also, 4:3 SD will not be stretched, but will just be larger and “overscan” the screen. In the case of a squeezed widescreen picture as seen on COZI, it will still be squeezed, it will just be bigger, and overscan the screen. In that case, the “Full” setting which is normally used on HD will display it correctly.

I really think that all of this confusion is the result of the fact that different brands and models of HDTV’s do indeed have very different user interfaces and act very differently in how they handle different picture formats, especially different SD formats. One thing is clear: you cannot make sweeping generalizations about how different HDTV’s handle various SD and HD broadcast formats. I am not arguing that your set is not doing what you are describing. I am simply explaining how mine are handling different channel formats, and what conclusions can be drawn from all of this.
post #9155 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisonS View Post

No, not all sets do this. Some, like the Pioneer Elite, default to whatever screen format the user has currently selected for SD. It may be either 4:3 or it may be a widescreen format. ...

By "default" I mean like when I select an option like "restore factory settings" or some other in the menu for picture setup it places SD at 4:3. Therefore when a 16:9 SD signal is received, the picture gets squished to 4:3. You can of course change this factory default setting for SD to a wide option that will automatically display a 16:9 SD signal properly, but then all 4:3 SD channels will now be stretched to 16:9 when tuned to. So unless your PE has a "Set by Program" option like ebj1980's LG , it should behave this way of having to manually switch display formats back and forth for proper display of 4:3 and 16:9 SD images.
Quote:
... Huh?? I think it proves just the opposite!



Oh, but you can change it! You can change the format regardless whether the display option is 16:9 or 4:3. I even tried it with both display options!
Again, I have no trouble at all, in changing the format, regardless whether the display option has been set to 16:9 or 4:3. ...

Then I have to believe your STB is definitely the exception on this feature here;

As none of my DTV converters can do that, not my DIRECTV Genie or any of the other DVRs here, and Dante_101's TIVO doesn't. On STB receivers whenever the native aspect ratio of the received signal is the same as the one in the settings, the STB's user format control customarily will do nothing to alter the image.
Quote:
... No, not all of them do. The PE will only default to 4:3 on SD broadcasts if the user has selected 4:3 from the display menu. It will continue to do so only until the user changes setting for SD channels again. ...

As I stated, my sets will do that as well. In fact most do, but that doesn't solve the problem of properly displaying both 4:3 and 16:9 SD images without having to manually switch the display format. Options like the LG's 'Set by Program" would, but most sets do not have that option that I'm aware of.
Quote:
...There is no setting called “widescreen” on the PE. If you select the “Zoom” option, letterboxed 16:9 will fill the screen nicely, without any stretching. Also, 4:3 SD will not be stretched, but will just be larger and “overscan” the screen. In the case of a squeezed widescreen picture as seen on COZI, it will still be squeezed, it will just be bigger, and overscan the screen. In that case, the “Full” setting which is normally used on HD will display it correctly. ...

Oh I didn't mean to claim my mention of "widescreen" mode is specifically called that on the PE, but as a generic reference to however the corresponding mode on any HDTV is titled. "Full" I see in the case of the PE.

And I'm aware of how the zoom functions on window-boxed images this way and have no disagreement with your explanation of it here.
Quote:
... I really think that all of this confusion is the result of the fact that different brands and models of HDTV’s do indeed have very different user interfaces and act very differently in how they handle different picture formats, especially different SD formats. One thing is clear: you cannot make sweeping generalizations about how different HDTV’s handle various SD and HD broadcast formats. I am not arguing that your set is not doing what you are describing. I am simply explaining how mine are handling different channel formats, and what conclusions can be drawn from all of this.

Fair enough;

But I really don't think its overgeneralizing to say your STB receiver's user selectable format control is not typical of how most STBs operate. And most HDTVs are like your PE or my models and do not automatically display 4:3 vs. 16:9 SD pictures without manually switching the display format between the two. The LG's "Set by Program" will, but as I said most sets do not have that option.

STBs do of course, but not really much on HDTVs.
post #9156 of 9442
(Apologies if this has already been addressed. I didn't see it in the last couple pages of the thread and the search function didn't reveal anything.)

Issue:
I have not been able to receive NBC4 OTA (channel 4.2) for almost a month now. I have tried two different tuners, both of which received that station successfully for several years before now. And all other stations are still being received just fine.
Does anyone know if NBC4 change something about its broadcast?

Background:
We live in Sherman Oaks and have had generally good reception on most local LA channels. Occasionally, NBC4 would not be received by my Sharp HDTV tuner, though other OTA channels had no problem, but NBC4 always came back after a couple days. Also, the times where my HDTV stopped receiving NBC4, my other tuner (an HD Homerun network-connected tuner which feeds to EyeTV on my Mac computer) would continue to receive it just fine. Both tuners are fed by the same rooftop antenna, so I figured my HDTV tuner is just inferior to the HDHomerun tuner.

But with this current outage, NEITHER of my tuners can receive NBC4, though all other stations come in just fine. So that limits the possible problems to the antenna (a huge rooftop antenna) or the broadcaster.

Thanks in advance for any help!
post #9157 of 9442
NBC 4 is on 4.1 & Cozi TV is on 4.2. Both have worked fine for me.
They broadcast on RF36. So you might try entering 36.1 & 36.2 on your remotes & see if they will map over to 4.1 & 4.2.
If that doesn't work, go in to your menu to see if you can manually add channels, & add 36.
post #9158 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by oc-rdx View Post

NBC 4 is on 4.1 & Cozi TV is on 4.2. Both have worked fine for me.
They broadcast on RF36. So you might try entering 36.1 & 36.2 on your remotes & see if they will map over to 4.1 & 4.2.
If that doesn't work, go in to your menu to see if you can manually add channels, & add 36.

Actually 4.1 is on real channel 36.3 and 4.2 is 36.4
post #9159 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

Actually 4.1 is on real channel 36.3 and 4.2 is 36.4

True;

Though I've personally never found a technically accurate terminology for those as terms like "real" or "physical" doesn't totally fit well since even that number is still somewhat logical as 36.3 and 36.4 mean RF channel 36 which is indeed "real," but .3 and .4 refer to packet streams 3 and 4 of the aggregate transport stream which are actually logical numbers. smile.gif
post #9160 of 9442
Avoid confusing the term "Real Channel" (which are INTEGERS...never Decimals) when discussing VIRTUAL numbers, which are ALWAYS Decimal and only RARELY does the number prior to the Decimal match the REAL Channel number.
post #9161 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post

True;

Though I've personally never found a technically accurate terminology for those as terms like "real" or "physical" doesn't totally fit well since even that number is still somewhat logical as 36.3 and 36.4 mean RF channel 36 which is indeed "real," but .3 and .4 refer to packet streams 3 and 4 of the aggregate transport stream which are actually logical numbers. smile.gif

Perhaps we can agree to call 4.1 the Display channel and 36.3 the Digital channel. That is the nomenclature Rabbitears uses.
post #9162 of 9442
Is it me or did KCBS2 change in terms of signal feeds (weaker) recently? Is anyone else noticing this? I hope I don't have to adjust the darn huge antenna again!
post #9163 of 9442
Still same signal here in San Marcos as far as I can tell.
post #9164 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

Is it me or did KCBS2 change in terms of signal feeds (weaker) recently? Is anyone else noticing this? I hope I don't have to adjust the darn huge antenna again!
Where are you in regards to Mt. Wilson due South, Southeast, Southwest? Weather can do things to TV signals and being the actual signal for KCBS is UHF
and the transmitter tower has one of the least favorable locations up on the mountain it can make it touchy at times. Are you having mulipath problems.
post #9165 of 9442
KCBS is at the top of Mt. Wilson. They no longer use the KCBS site at the West side of Wilson. They are on the tower as KCAL-TV. They are between KABC and KTLA.
post #9166 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post

Is it me or did KCBS2 change in terms of signal feeds (weaker) recently? Is anyone else noticing this? I hope I don't have to adjust the darn huge antenna again!
Where are you in regards to Mt. Wilson due South, Southeast, Southwest? Weather can do things to TV signals and being the actual signal for KCBS is UHF
and the transmitter tower has one of the least favorable locations up on the mountain it can make it touchy at times. Are you having mulipath problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LATV View Post

KCBS is at the top of Mt. Wilson. They no longer use the KCBS site at the West side of Wilson. They are on the tower as KCAL-TV. They are between KABC and KTLA.
Most transmitters are 323-324 (Magnetic North) and 336-337 (True) degrees (Azimuth according to tvfool.com) and under 20 miles. I seems to have improved the signal strengths a little by making the antenna more horizontal, but this might affect other stations (did not check and care not since I only care about KCBS2 at the moment and don't have time to deal with the issue these days). Multi-path? Maybe. I know it was bad during analog days with interferences, snows, etc.
post #9167 of 9442
Haven't seen this posted here before.

http://www.kcet.org/about/pressroom/press-releases/press-release/kcetlink-partners-with-nhk-world-tv-to-launch-24-hour-channel-in-southern-california.html

I'm guessing this means NHK will appear on 28-4, but does this mean MHz Worldview is going away? Does anyone know?

- Trip
post #9168 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by LATV View Post

KCBS is at the top of Mt. Wilson. They no longer use the KCBS site at the West side of Wilson. They are on the tower as KCAL-TV. They are between KABC and KTLA.
KCAl is high VHF and KCBS is UHF still less than ideal.
post #9169 of 9442
Hey... does anyone know what Channel K02RB is on? I have never heard of it. I was informed today that PBJ, the retro cartoon network, is going to be on it starting in a few weeks. I have never heard of it. Have you?
post #9170 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthycityboy View Post

Hey... does anyone know what Channel K02RB is on? I have never heard of it. I was informed today that PBJ, the retro cartoon network, is going to be on it starting in a few weeks. I have never heard of it. Have you?

Very low power digital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K02RB-D

RabbitEars list it as assigned virtual channel 43 and physical channel 2, but is off the air at present.
post #9171 of 9442
I don't know what all the confusion is about channel 4.2. It is not anamorphic. It is simply one of the 18 formats defined for digital OTA TV. It is 704 x 640 widescreen. My Dish Network Hopper STB, my MIT MDR-200 STB, and my Vizio TV all correctly receive and display it as widescreen.

I love it as it correctly shows both widescreen shows in their correct aspect ratio and crops 4x3 shows for their correct aspect ratio. Potentially almost DVD quality picture.

Rick R
post #9172 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_R View Post

I don't know what all the confusion is about channel 4.2. It is not anamorphic. It is simply one of the 18 formats defined for digital OTA TV. It is 704 x 640 widescreen. My Dish Network Hopper STB, my MIT MDR-200 STB, and my Vizio TV all correctly receive and display it as widescreen. ...

Agreed;

And with all due respect to HarrisonS' position, 4-2 COZI is definitely in a 16:9 SD non-anamorphic format.

It displays correctly from my DIRECTV Genie and other DVRs with the AM21 tuner module here as well. But not on our HDTVs unless manually switched to widescreen mode since they automatically squish all SD resolution images to 4:3 by default irrespective of the image's actual aspect ratio. Therefore what I have to do is disable all SD resolution options (480p and i) in the settings on the Genie and other DVRs so all 16:9 SD channels are scaled up to 720p so the TV sets treat them as HD signals and defaults to a widescreen 16:9 mode.

BTW, are you receiving 4-2 COZI on the Hopper with the OTA tuner module?

http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/297237-FIRST-LOOK-Hopper-OTA-Module

Or does DN carry it on the satellite feed?
Quote:
... I love it as it correctly shows both widescreen shows in their correct aspect ratio and crops 4x3 shows for their correct aspect ratio. Potentially almost DVD quality picture.

Rick R

Yes, just like the prior "Calif. Non-stop" programming (which I frankly considered to be boring) the images are all properly formatted in widescreen or pillar-boxed into widescreen for 4:3 pictures and at good picture quality too.

A well managed sub-channel transmitted by local KNBC I must admit ...
Edited by HoTatII - 7/18/13 at 11:31am
post #9173 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post

Agreed;

And with all due respect to HarrisonS' position, 4-2 COZI is definitely in a 16:9 SD non-anamorphic format.

It displays correctly from my DIRECTV Genie and other DVRs with the AM21 tuner module here as well. But not on our HDTVs unless manually switched to widescreen mode since they automatically squish all SD resolution images to 4:3 by default irrespective of the image's actual aspect ratio. Therefore what I have to do is disable all SD resolution options (480p and i) in the settings on the Genie and other DVRs so all 16:9 SD channels are scaled up to 720p so the TV sets treat them as HD signals and defaults to a widescreen 16:9 mode.

BTW, are you receiving 4-2 COZI on the Hopper with the OTA tuner module?

http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/297237-FIRST-LOOK-Hopper-OTA-Module

Or does DN carry it on the satellite feed?
Yes, just like the prior "Calif. Non-stop" programming (which I frankly considered to be boring) the images are all properly formatted in widescreen or pillar-boxed into widescreen for 4:3 pictures and at good picture quality too.

A well managed sub-channel transmitted by local KNBC I must admit ...

What is the aspect ratio setting on your Genie? If your answer is anything other than "pillar box" and your TV's setting to "16x9" or "screen fit" or something like that, this is to be expected as ALL SD programming would be stretched and terrible. And that is exactly what anamorphic does. Why wouldn't you just make the Genie show 1080i and 1080p? It takes it forever to change channels if you have it change aspect ratio.

When your TV/Genie is set up to show SD programming in proper aspect ratio and everything is set up correctly (TV: 16:9 or Screen Fit, Genie: pillar box), programs that are 4:3 SD will show up 4:3 and 16:9 SD will show up 16:9. This is set by the broadcaster. Your Cozi TV - and many other SD channels - are set by the broadcaster to broadcast 4:3, no matter what. IF your TV stretches ALL SD, it will stretch and look "normal". This is technically wrong because on programs that are supposed to be shown 4:3, this will cause the picture to be stretched. It should be mentioned that some lower end and older TVs do not give you a choice and you have no choice but to stretch all SD.

Test this out by doing this: Set your Genie to pillar box. Look at channel 71 or 233 (GSN). You will see black bars on the side. Good; those pictures are broadcast 4:3. Now tune to Baby First (293) and then BYUTV (374). Those are SD channels that fill the screen, sent by Directv in 16:9 SD. Now look at Univision-west (channel 403). It is anamorphic. It is clearly supposed to be 16:9, but it is sent 4:3 and will be pillar boxed by the Genie because it's being "told" it's a 4:3 image thus causing the picture to appear smushed in the middle of the screen. TCT (377) has a lot of anamorphic programming during east-coast primetime, but varies.
post #9174 of 9442
TV 4.2.JPG 2344k .JPG file
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb1980 View Post

What is the aspect ratio setting on your Genie? If your answer is anything other than "pillar box" and your TV's setting to "16x9" or "screen fit" or something like that, this is to be expected as ALL SD programming would be stretched and terrible. And that is exactly what anamorphic does. Why wouldn't you just make the Genie show 1080i and 1080p? It takes it forever to change channels if you have it change aspect ratio.

When your TV/Genie is set up to show SD programming in proper aspect ratio and everything is set up correctly (TV: 16:9 or Screen Fit, Genie: pillar box), programs that are 4:3 SD will show up 4:3 and 16:9 SD will show up 16:9. This is set by the broadcaster. Your Cozi TV - and many other SD channels - are set by the broadcaster to broadcast 4:3, no matter what. IF your TV stretches ALL SD, it will stretch and look "normal". This is technically wrong because on programs that are supposed to be shown 4:3, this will cause the picture to be stretched. It should be mentioned that some lower end and older TVs do not give you a choice and you have no choice but to stretch all SD.

Test this out by doing this: Set your Genie to pillar box. Look at channel 71 or 233 (GSN). You will see black bars on the side. Good; those pictures are broadcast 4:3. Now tune to Baby First (293) and then BYUTV (374). Those are SD channels that fill the screen, sent by Directv in 16:9 SD. Now look at Univision-west (channel 403). It is anamorphic. It is clearly supposed to be 16:9, but it is sent 4:3 and will be pillar boxed by the Genie because it's being "told" it's a 4:3 image thus causing the picture to appear smushed in the middle of the screen. TCT (377) has a lot of anamorphic programming during east-coast primetime, but varies.

Here are pictures of 4.1 and 4.2 on my TV (OTA) from a few minutes ago. No changes in pictures settings. TV 4.1.JPG 2063k .JPG file TV 4.2.JPG 2344k .JPG file
Edited by Ennui - 7/18/13 at 6:00pm
post #9175 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb1980 View Post

What is the aspect ratio setting on your Genie? If your answer is anything other than "pillar box" and your TV's setting to "16x9" or "screen fit" or something like that, this is to be expected as ALL SD programming would be stretched and terrible And that is exactly what anamorphic does. ...

"16:9" in the receiver setup of course since its connected to an HDTV, and I largely keep it on "Pillar Box" for the display format setting.
Quote:
... Why wouldn't you just make the Genie show 1080i and 1080p? It takes it forever to change channels if you have it change aspect ratio.

While scaling all SD programs up to 720p HD so any 16:9 SD programs will automatically display properly, I prefer to pass all native HD programs through the Genie unaltered to the TV set in spite of the slightly lower channel change speed this entails. Therefore 720p, 1080i, and 1080p are selected in the setup, while 480i and p are not selected.
Quote:
... When your TV/Genie is set up to show SD programming in proper aspect ratio and everything is set up correctly (TV: 16:9 or Screen Fit, Genie: pillar box), programs that are 4:3 SD will show up 4:3 and 16:9 SD will show up 16:9. This is set by the broadcaster.

Yes, but on our TVs 16:9 SD programs only display correctly if scaled up to an HD format by the DVR since they only default automatically to a widescreen mode if fed with an HD resolution image. Now if any of our HDTVs had a "Set by Program" display option like your LG I wouldn't need to scale SD channels to HD in order to automatically show properly.

But alas, many sets do not have that option. Most STB receivers do, but not many TVs.
Quote:
... Your Cozi TV - and many other SD channels - are set by the broadcaster to broadcast 4:3, no matter what. IF your TV stretches ALL SD, it will stretch and look "normal". This is technically wrong because on programs that are supposed to be shown 4:3, this will cause the picture to be stretched. It should be mentioned that some lower end and older TVs do not give you a choice and you have no choice but to stretch all SD.

No that's not true;

I assure you there are a number of OTA programs in the L.A. market that are transmitted in genuine 16:9 non-anamorphic SD like COZI. However, as stated I do have to keep my format selection on the Genie and other DVRs on the "Pillar Box" setting because if not then whenever 4:3 SD programs are received and scaled to 720p they would be stretched to 16:9 (or stretch-o-vision) .
Quote:
... Test this out by doing this: Set your Genie to pillar box. Look at channel 71 or 233 (GSN). You will see black bars on the side. Good; those pictures are broadcast 4:3. Now tune to Baby First (293) and then BYUTV (374). Those are SD channels that fill the screen, sent by Directv in 16:9 SD. Now look at Univision-west (channel 403). It is anamorphic. It is clearly supposed to be 16:9, but it is sent 4:3 and will be pillar boxed by the Genie because it's being "told" it's a 4:3 image thus causing the picture to appear smushed in the middle of the screen. TCT (377) has a lot of anamorphic programming during east-coast primetime, but varies.

Yes, this is all true I see;

Though I don't receive Univision-west in my package, I recall the snapshot of its image you posted earlier and it is indeed squeezed. But COZI and other OTA station sub-channels are not like that.

The thing I wonder though is who is anamorphically squeezing the images this way?

DIRECTV or the stations?

And is it being done intentionally or by accident and/or incompetence?

As I said earlier in this thread, DIRECTV usually crops all SD channels to 4:3, yet you see these exceptions.

In fact I have one SD local channel furnished by DIRECTV here, KILM-64, which is 16:9 SD, but squeezed as well into 4:3.

Though I don't complain since DIRECTV is my only source for the station as KILM's OTA transmitter has been off the air for weeks now for some reason. smile.gif
post #9176 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Haven't seen this posted here before.

http://www.kcet.org/about/pressroom/press-releases/press-release/kcetlink-partners-with-nhk-world-tv-to-launch-24-hour-channel-in-southern-california.html

I'm guessing this means NHK will appear on 28-4, but does this mean MHz Worldview is going away? Does anyone know?

- Trip

Yes MHZ will be gone from KCET.

Bad move - more desperate cost cutting.

KSCI 18.2 already carries NHK World live in slabs during its daily schedule.
post #9177 of 9442
Scaling it to 720p will not automatically adjust the aspect ratio. When you're scaling through the options for the aspect ratio (1080i stretch, 1080i pillar, 1080i original, 1080i zoom) those settings are for SD. Even if you scale it up, if you leave it on stretch it will. Is KILM proper 16x9 SD OTA? I ask because it's not listed as that way on rabbitears.info. It also says the station is off the air so... yeah. That site is usually accurate, but there are errors. I know you said you don't receive it, but perhaps others can. This interests me because I, too, have wondered if Directv smushes in these cases or if it's provided that way. I forget that Univision west is on the 119.

In the picture of Cozi TV, does it say that it's broadcasting a 16:9 or 4:3 image in the info bar?
Edited by ejb1980 - 7/18/13 at 7:57pm
post #9178 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejb1980 View Post

Scaling it to 720p will not automatically adjust the aspect ratio. When you're scaling through the options for the aspect ratio (1080i stretch, 1080i pillar, 1080i original, 1080i zoom) those settings are for SD. Even if you scale it up, if you leave it on stretch it will. ...

What actually happens is when a 16:9 SD program is received, my Genie and other DVRs are set to scale them to 720p which the HDTVs sense as an HD signal and default to widescreen or 16:9 mode for proper display. The format setting on the Genie and DVRs is usually left on Pillar Box, but is actually irrelevant since the control becomes disabled whenever the aspect ratio of the received signal (16:9 in this case) is the same as the one selected in the receiver setup and thus has no effect on the image.

When 4:3 SD programs are received they too are scaled to 720p by the Genie and DVRs. The difference here though is that since a 4:3 720p format is not a defined standard the Genie and DVRs also stretch it to 16:9 in the scaling process otherwise resulting in stretch-o-vision. However since the signal's native 4:3 aspect ratio do not match the 16:9 selection in the receiver setup, the format control on the DVRs are now enabled and when left on Pillar Box conveniently squeeze it back to 4:3 countering the stretch to produce a proper 4:3 display on the TV screens.
Quote:
... Is KILM proper 16x9 SD OTA? I ask because it's not listed as that way on rabbitears.info. It also says the station is off the air so... yeah. That site is usually accurate, but there are errors. I know you said you don't receive it, but perhaps others can. This interests me because I, too, have wondered if Directv smushes in these cases or if it's provided that way. I forget that Univision west is on the 119. ...

KILM's main OTA transmitter is (or "was") in Barstow, CA., which I can't receive at my location, but use to receive it by means of a simulcast transmission provided by station KFLA-8 on Mt. Wilson through one of their sub-channels mapped over to virtual channel 64-1. As far as known both broadcasts from the main in Barstow and from KFLA have ceased for several weeks now.

However, before they went off the air, the signal was in 16:9 SD format, at least from KFLA, but in a earlier discussion with Trip on this, he said he was not going to update the information on Rabbit Ears for KILM beyond its predecessor, the former KHIZ's data until an actual viewer in Barstow could confirm exactly what sub-channels and format the main broadcast was in.
Quote:
... In the picture of Cozi TV, does it say that it's broadcasting a 16:9 or 4:3 image in the info bar?

16:9.
post #9179 of 9442
post #9180 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

KNBC 4.2 is flagged 16:9. http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ca-lax/47906-0_0.htm

- Trip



OTA, 4.1 is 1080i and 4.2 is 480i.

FYI.
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