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Los Angeles, CA - OTA - Page 311

post #9301 of 9442
Yes, it is beyond annoying. Don't they want us to watch their channel? Just broadcast in the same manner as KOZI is doing it on 4.2! KOZI is also broadcasting widescreen SD, but it works right for me, unlike Movies...
Edited by Dante_101 - 1/17/14 at 10:39am
post #9302 of 9442
Yes, we discussed this matter here a few months ago. Since then, there have been some encouraging signs. KOCE has apparently "seen the light" and is now carrying subchannels 50.2 and 50.4 (WORLD) in the same format as COZI. Also, NHK is now using this format on 28.4. I suspect this is NHK's doing, since 28.2 is still "stretch-o-vision". Anyway, 28.4 now looks amazingly good for SD.
post #9303 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisonS View Post

Yes, we discussed this matter here a few months ago. Since then, there have been some encouraging signs. KOCE has apparently "seen the light" and is now carrying subchannels 50.2 and 50.4 (WORLD) in the same format as COZI. Also, NHK is now using this format on 28.4. I suspect this is NHK's doing, since 28.2 is still "stretch-o-vision". Anyway, 28.4 now looks amazingly good for SD.

NHK World originates as 1080i 16x9.

Whatever aspect ratio etc. appears on KCET 28.4 is controlled by KCET.

While we are on the subject of the public stations the PQ on KOCE is still lousy.

Worst HD in LA - bit starved mess and the sub-channels suffer too.

Over at KLCS the LAUSD seems incapable of transmitting 4 channels of 480i in anything resembling decent picture quality or appropriate aspect ratios.

Kudos to KCET and KVCR who seem to have their act together - though KVCR needs to properly generate audio in 5.1 or at least 2.1 at least on their primary HD channel.
post #9304 of 9442
Live in the Stevenson Ranch area. This is my TvFool chart which I can't read for a darn. Can anyone direct me on which antenna to get?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94013c499071
post #9305 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shags1978 View Post

Live in the Stevenson Ranch area. This is my TvFool chart which I can't read for a darn. Can anyone direct me on which antenna to get?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94013c499071

Ouch! You are in a very difficult location. Even with a good antenna, you are looking at being able to pick up only maybe a half dozen stations or so. Not surprisingly, the strongest stations are VHF: channels 7, 9, 11 and 13. I think that, with a really good, specialized, hi-band VHF antenna you might have a fighting chance of getting acceptable reception on these channels, however. VHF is much more forgiving than UHF of obstacles in the signal path. This is because the longer wavelengths diffract much more easily around any obstacles.

For high performance on VHF, I recommend the Winegard YA-1713 which I am using here for VHF. Locally, you should be able to find these in stock at Electronic City in Burbank. As for UHF, you might be able to pick up KTLA and KDOC and maybe even KNBC, but this is "iffy" at best. Ideally, you would want to get a specialized UHF antenna, and combine its output with that of the VHF.
post #9306 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by BondiBluey View Post

NHK World originates as 1080i 16x9.

Whatever aspect ratio etc. appears on KCET 28.4 is controlled by KCET.

Of course it is controlled by KCET, but I suspect that this was only because of pressure placed on them by NHK. KCET used to show it in the usual "stretch-o-vision", and it looked lousy. If this had been done on KCET's initiative, they probably would have cleaned up KCET-LINK (28.2) as well.
Quote:
While we are on the subject of the public stations the PQ on KOCE is still lousy.

Worst HD in LA - bit starved mess and the sub-channels suffer too.

Over at KLCS the LAUSD seems incapable of transmitting 4 channels of 480i in anything resembling decent picture quality or appropriate aspect ratios.

Kudos to KCET and KVCR who seem to have their act together - though KVCR needs to properly generate audio in 5.1 or at least 2.1 at least on their primary HD channel.

KOCE does indeed have lousy HD; whether it is the worst of all or not, I am not sure- it has plenty of competition. In any case, it does have the worst pixelation in scenes with a lot movement- a sure sign that it is bit-starved. I really don't understand why thy don't fix it.
post #9307 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisonS View Post

Of course it is controlled by KCET, but I suspect that this was only because of pressure placed on them by NHK. KCET used to show it in the usual "stretch-o-vision", and it looked lousy. If this had been done on KCET's initiative, they probably would have cleaned up KCET-LINK (28.2) as well.
KOCE does indeed have lousy HD; whether it is the worst of all or not, I am not sure- it has plenty of competition. In any case, it does have the worst pixelation in scenes with a lot movement- a sure sign that it is bit-starved. I really don't understand why thy don't fix it.

I think the problem for most TV engineering departments these days, and I had an enormous amount to do with them back in the glory days, is that they are overwhelmed with numerous channels, equipment, translators etc. and too few staff.

Also it is obvious that no one, on the program side, any longer actually 'watches their own air' as we used to say. So engineering gets little direction/feedback.

The program folks are all too busy messing with websites and the internet.

Have you also noticed that for more than a year KOCE's system clock is out of whack so they cross to the network feed 5-7 seconds late clipping intro's etc.

This is simply mind boggling to me - we would have been 'hauled on the carpet' the very next morning for stuff like that.
post #9308 of 9442
I'd expect to see a test pattern showing up soon on 46.2 for Get TV. Last I heard, it starts Feb 3rd.
post #9309 of 9442
Didn't know about Get TV until you just mentioned it.
Quote:
getTV is a new television network from Sony Pictures Entertainment that takes viewers back to the Golden Age of cinema. Highlighting classic stars from Frank Sinatra to Shirley Temple, we focus on delivering an interactive and immersive experience that takes you back to the days of sock hops and malt shops.

http://www.get.tv

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GetTV

So it looks like it will be on channel 46.2 starting Feb 3rd. Always nice to see a new OTA sub-channel pop up. Hope the programming is good. Already lots of old films shown on Movies, ThisTV, Antenna TV, Cozi, and Retro TV. The more the merrier, I guess.
post #9310 of 9442
I am so glad hearing some1 mention KOCE clipping beginnings of programming.
I notice this most Friday evenings while recording Washington Week. Quite anoying that
they cannot get this right.
Also, KOCE is still not running a SAP, so those of us who are blind
are missing out on the DVS which PBS is offering.
post #9311 of 9442

hi, i'm looking to view some ota dtv/hd channels after cutting the cord.  just starting out so not knowledgeable at all.  would appreciate any help.  this is my tvfool report:

 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94fc2f18721a

 

i live in an apartment complex, first floor(above halfway underground garage).  i would say my ceiling is about 20 to 25 feet above ground level.  my unit is also on the inner side of a 3 floor rectangular building so i don't get direct sunlight.  my balcony opens up to the inner courtyard.

 

could i get a decent signal here?  what kind of antenna would i need?

 

thanks.

post #9312 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacing View Post

hi, i'm looking to view some ota dtv/hd channels after cutting the cord.  just starting out so not knowledgeable at all.  would appreciate any help.  this is my tvfool report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94fc2f18721a

i live in an apartment complex, first floor(above halfway underground garage).  i would say my ceiling is about 20 to 25 feet above ground level.  my unit is also on the inner side of a 3 floor rectangular building so i don't get direct sunlight.  my balcony opens up to the inner courtyard.

could i get a decent signal here?  what kind of antenna would i need?

thanks.

Well, you certainly have an excellent location for reception of all the local stations on Mt. Wilson. I see that all of them are line-of-sight for you. On the downside, of course, is the fact that you are in an apartment, and probably won't be able to put up an outdoor antenna which would be the best. In any case, with a good indoor antenna you should still be able to get 80-100 channels IF the antenna is placed in a favorable spot. My experience is limited to outdoor antennas, but you may be able to find some recommendations regarding indoor antennas in earlier posts in this thread if no one shows up with any recommendations.
post #9313 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacing View Post


i live in an apartment complex, first floor(above halfway underground garage).  i would say my ceiling is about 20 to 25 feet above ground level.  my unit is also on the inner side of a 3 floor rectangular building so i don't get direct sunlight.  my balcony opens up to the inner courtyard.

could i get a decent signal here?  what kind of antenna would i need?

thanks.

If your unit has a window that looks out towards the north or east, then you have a chance of receiving the local stations since they are very strong. I would try a HDTVa indoor antenna aimed toward the NE. This antenna performs well in a multiple reflections environment. Start of with the antenna unpowered. If you can't get some stations, try turning on the power. Where you place the antenna may make a difference, so try different locations or turn the antenna to different angles. If you don't have a north or east facing window, then try placing the antenna against a north or east facing wall. Again try different locations/angles. Good luck.
post #9314 of 9442
post #9315 of 9442

 

Is there something technologically new about this RF channel sharing arrangement in Los Angeles, or is this getting national attention only because LA is such a large market? Channel sharing has been going on for quite a while in small markets. Sometimes it is a way for the stations to save on transmitter maintenance costs by using just one RF, and sometimes two stations will keep separate RFs but carry each other as subchannels to expand the coverage area for the OTA signals.

 

Could the spectrum repacking and channel sharing actually improve OTA reception by reducing interference and allowing stations to share transmitters that are located in the best locations?

post #9316 of 9442
I think it is less about channel sharing and more about the FCC's desire to lure stations into giving up their allotted frequencies (for a cut in the profits which would come from the sale of the frequencies to broadband carriers, etc).

Although the article does say this:
Quote:
The experiment is intended to show the extent to which broadcast channels can be squeezed together on the electromagnetic spectrum without degrading the quality of their signals.

So even though channel sharing is nothing new, perhaps they are going to "test the limits" of how far it can go (and try to sell the idea to the stations). Maybe the engineers at these stations aren't dividing-up their broadcast spectrum in an efficient-enough manner?
post #9317 of 9442
Do either 57 or 58 even broadcast in HD? If their picture quality was (further) degraded, how would anyone notice?
post #9318 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by oc-rdx View Post

I'd expect to see a test pattern showing up soon on 46.2 for Get TV. Last I heard, it starts Feb 3rd.

I saw last night that GetTv has a preview loop running now. Channel 46.2(real channel 29.2).
post #9319 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.DNA View Post

Do either 57 or 58 even broadcast in HD? If their picture quality was (further) degraded, how would anyone notice?

No;

Neither station has any HD sub-channels off-air;

However, KJLA-57 provides DIRECTV (and perhaps other MSOs) with a direct 720p HD feed via fiber or microwave.

Though it's simply the SD feed used for their main 57-1 OTA sub-channel, up-converted and then stretched to 16:9, which as you can imagine, is a real "Yuck!," as it looks terrible.
post #9320 of 9442

Wow ...

14 SD MPEG-2 sub-channels (statistically) multiplexed into only 6 MHz of bandwidth?

I didn't realize the 8-VSB used by ATSC OTA broadcast had such a efficiently narrow power spectrum to acceptably accomplish that without the PQ of the channels really suffering.
post #9321 of 9442
I think they are going to test the second generation of digital television with MPEG 4.
post #9322 of 9442
Quote:
Originally Posted by LATV View Post

I think they are going to test the second generation of digital television with MPEG 4.

The article states;
Quote:
... The experiment is intended to show the extent to which broadcast channels can be squeezed together on the electromagnetic spectrum without degrading the quality of their signals. If the experiment goes as planned, no changes will be visible to consumers, who will continue to tune in to the same channels on their television sets.

How will the current MPEG-2 based ATSC receivers have no interruption in service during the test if the signals are going to be in MPEG-4?

Have I missed something major here since I haven't heard anything about possibly new MPEG-4 ATSC receivers coming to market anytime soon if at all?

And is there to be a long lead time of several years or something between the scheduled auction set for 2015 and the actual handing over of the spectrum for those who accept a buyout to allow time for new MPEG-4 receivers to be distributed?
post #9323 of 9442
I would expect they test overnight as another station in Baltimore has been doing.
WNUV-TV in Baltimore has an experimental authorization. This see it:
http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/corrp_list.pl?Application_id=1571471&File_Prefix=BEPEXDT&App_Arn=20130815ACX&Facility_id=7933
Then click on the
Imported Letters
Letter Date Description Details
Aug 29, 2013 Imported Letter Click to View Imported Letter
Aug 15, 2013 Imported Letter Click to View Imported Letter

This from March of 2013:
On Tuesday the ATSC announced it was inviting proposals for next generation broadcast technologies.

In the announcement, Mark Richer, ATSC President, said, “Technology continues to advance and we are always looking to the horizon. Internet technology now permeates the consumer experience, and mobility has become a requirement. As we look forward to next-generation television standards, we want to take advantage of advances in compression and transmission technologies that will keep millions of people informed and entertained through broadcasting’s inherently efficient one-to-many architecture.”

Glenn Reitmeier, ATSC Chairman, noted: “the ATSC 3.0 effort is a crucial time for broadcasters, professional equipment manufacturers, consumer device manufacturers and all stakeholders to collaborate and create the future capabilities of over-the-air broadcasting.”

”ATSC 3.0 is expected to provide robust mobile services to devices that move, such as phones, tablets, laptops and personal televisions,” Richer said. “Since these devices are likely to move across borders, it’s highly desirable that the specification contains core technologies that will have broad international acceptance and enable global interoperability,”

Engineers will find the Call for Proposals for ATSC 3.0 Physical Layer as interesting as the announcement. The Call for Proposals (CFP) has some specific requirements, including a 30 percent increase in data capacity for the same 15 dB C/N as in ATSC 1.0. It also wants adjustable channel bandwidth (more or less than 6 MHz) in fixed increments, and the ability to support long echoes such as those that occur in a single-frequency-network.

The first “Function Requirement” is a spectral efficiency between 0.5 and 10 bps/Hz, with different quality of service (QoS) type and levels for each service. This implies data rates from 3 Mbps to 60 Mbps. A footnote says, “Note that it is the intention for the ATSC 3.0 system is to support delivery to fixed devices of content with video resolutions up to Ultra High Definition 3840 × 2160 at 60 fps, or such higher frame rates and/or resolutions as may be determined to be desirable and practical. The intention of the system is to support delivery to portable, handheld and vehicular devices of content with video resolution up to High Definition 1920 × 1080 at 60 fps. The system is also expected to support lower video resolutions and frame rates than those stated above.”

Another requirement is a “Flexible Physical Layer” which supports “different coverage scenarios, topologies and morphologies.” An example is simultaneous support of UHD and mobile HD services: “Robust adaptive support for mobile and fixed services shall be supported.”

The CFP provides a ruler against which evolving technologies (DVB-NGH is the obvious example) can be tested to see if they meet the requirements for ATSC 3.0. It appears some of the requirements could be a bit of a stretch, but that may not be such a bad idea, considering that ATSC 3.0 will be replacing a terrestrial DTV standard that's survived for 15 years.
post #9324 of 9442
post #9325 of 9442

Thanks for this post.

Do I have this right KLCS - which cannot even broadcast 4 channels in anything like a decent 480i SD picture is going all high-falutin' with this experiment?!

The school district is in a desperate situation with what ought to be a significant asset - the KLCS TV license.

First there was the destruction of their first digital transmitter - the financial impact of which was never fully explained.

Followed by a fiscal meltdown etc etc at LAUSD like many other school districts post-2008.

Then we had a shell-game for a couple of years where the station went "off air" for 4-5 hours each night but left the transmitter on thereby saving little or no money.

Then we had an attempt at on-air fundraising/'silent pledge drive' from the station's viewers.

No record of how this went for them.

And now this is the latest - in way, way, over their heads.
post #9326 of 9442
There is nothing wrong with going off air over night and leaving the transmitter on as long as there is an ID on it. They save in staffing and other expenses at the studio, I would expect that this experimental operation is being done with help from manufactures.
post #9327 of 9442
KCET now broadcasting 28.4 NHK World in 720p.

First public TV station in the US to broadcast two channels in HD?
post #9328 of 9442
Definitely beaten to the punch by WNYE and KBYU, and WYIN experimented with it before WNYE started. WYIN is back to one HD now though.

- Trip
post #9329 of 9442
KLCS just briefly added a HD channel 720p on 58.5. Is this part of the repacking experiment with KJLA 57?
post #9330 of 9442
(post deleted)

Sorry, brain cramp. Definitely wrong forum. redface.gif
Edited by DiveFan - 2/7/14 at 4:11pm
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