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Notice to Beta Testers  

post #1 of 97
Thread Starter 
To the forum members that have volunteered to Beta Test the Grayhawk
screens.

Please be advised that your custom screen units will begin shipping to your homes at the end of next week and the first of the following week. Please keep an eye out for them.

Thank you,
Don Stewart
post #2 of 97
Thanks Don,

I got a similar phone confirmation today.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how well the new Grayhawk screen works, relative to a normal screen with my G15.

-Dean.
post #3 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Phil Olson:
I got a call also. I was hoping to get 12' x 5', (2.40:1), but unfortunately they were not able to go any wider than 100" x 54", (1.85:1). http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif They were also unable to do micro-perf at this time. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

Don,

In your testing how much light fall-off does micro-per create? Have YOU tested greyhawk with the micro-perf option? How long will the beta last? Are we restricted from posting on this forum? Even though we havenm't signed a non-disclosure, I'm more than willing to follow your wishes.

Thanks for the opportunity,
Phil
Dear Phil,

We did test a GreyHawk Micro-Perf screen last week with a Sony VPL HT 10 LCD projector and a Seleco DLP projector. Their was a 10.2 percent light loss, confirming what we anticipated. The images had CRT like contrast, excellent color saturation, or what I would term "High Image Fidelity".
Since your existing screen is Micro-Perfed I think we should replace it with a micro-perf GrayHawk. The down side is it may delay your shipment few more days.

Phil... this is Stewart Films' first experience with Beta testing.
We will be going through a learning curve and perhaps we may even make a few mistakes. As for how long will the Beta program last? I do believe that the tester can evaluate the screen image qualities in a minimum amount of time. We will be asking you both objective and subjective questions.

As for discussing your observations of the GreyHawk screen in this forum.
I did not even think about that until you brought it up.
My instinct tells me that it would be a risky business decision...but...
on the other hand, the respectable members of this forum motivated Stewart Filmscreen for the need of this type of product. I have found this forum as a great exchange for ideas and it helps me keep my thinking in perspective. Phil, I am interested in yours and other forum members opinions on an open book policy.

Regards,
Don Stewart
Stewart Filmscreen
post #4 of 97
Don,

Thanks for the quick response. I would be happy to wait for a micro-perf version.

Also, you've got mail.

Phil
post #5 of 97
Don,

As for posting our impressions of the product on the forum, I think that it would be a positive thing. This would allow non-beta testers to also ask questions of both you and the beta sites. It would probably increase the value of your beta as these questions may be ones that you would never have thought of.

I'm sure that you've tested this as best you can so I wouldn't expect a complete disaster. In this regard I would imagine that most of the responses will be positive. Even if some are negative, that's why you have betas!

By the way, as a veteran of many beta programs where I work, welcome to the club!

Phil
post #6 of 97
Hi Don,

I am in the process of adquiring a Stewart THX approved microperf for my JVC G-11 DILA. In your opinion, would I be better off waiting until the grey version of this screen is available for purchase, or would I do just fine with the current white one you sell? In other words, are the inprovements you get with the grey screen going to blow me away when compared with the quality of the current crop of your microperf material? I would be particularly interested in your opinion with regards to a) black levels, b) high frequency roll-off, and c) light dispersion, among the two prospects.

I value your opinion greatly, and thank you in advance for your suggestion. It is not too frequent that one can ask these sort of questions directly to the owner of the company! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Sorry if I am stepping in anybody's toes of the beta testers.

Thanks,
Luca
post #7 of 97
Don,

If it's possible, I would also like to test a microperf version of the Grayhawk material because my current screen is also perforated. I think that it would be better for comparison, and I would be happy to wait a few more days for the perf Grayhawk screen.

I'm anticipating that the forum discussion would be beneficial to your design efforts because the people asking the questions are in your target market, and most likely the Grayhawk screen will show itself well.

-Dean.
post #8 of 97
I got a call also. I was hoping to get 12' x 5', (2.40:1), but unfortunately they were not able to go any wider than 100" x 54", (1.85:1). http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif They were also unable to do micro-perf at this time. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

Don,

In your testing how much light fall-off does micro-per create? Have YOU tested greyhawk with the micro-perf option? How long will the beta last? Are we restricted from posting on this forum? Even though we havenm't signed a non-disclosure, I'm more than willing to follow your wishes.

Thanks for the opportunity,
Phil
post #9 of 97
Don,

I would LOVE to hear open comments from the Beta testers on the GreyHawk screen. I recently purchased a Sony 10HT projector and have decided to delay my screen purchase until the GreyHawk is released. I had been planning to get a Studiotek 130. For an interim solution I bought a cheap, manual pull-down screen. This will do as a stop-gap measure; but what I really want is a motorized, tensioned, drop-down Stewart screen. If the GreyHawk works well with the 10HT I will certainly be looking at buying one next year, when they're released! In your previous post you mentioned you had tested the Sony 10HT with the GreyHawk screen. Does it have enough light output to be a good match? Does it require the Cinema Black mode to be set to "OFF", in order to increase light output? Looking forward to hearing some real-world feedback on the GreyHawk screen!

Tom
post #10 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by propeller_beach:
Hi Don,

I am in the process of adquiring a Stewart THX approved microperf for my JVC G-11 DILA. In your opinion, would I be better off waiting until the grey version of this screen is available for purchase, or would I do just fine with the current white one you sell? In other words, are the inprovements you get with the grey screen going to blow me away when compared with the quality of the current crop of your microperf material? I would be particularly interested in your opinion with regards to a) black levels, b) high frequency roll-off, and c) light dispersion, among the two prospects.

I value your opinion greatly, and thank you in advance for your suggestion. It is not too frequent that one can ask these sort of questions directly to the owner of the company! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Sorry if I am stepping in anybody's toes of the beta testers.

Thanks,
Luca
Dear Propeller Beach, (Cool Name)

Thanks for your interest.
I don't believe that this forum should be used for selling products so I will make it short. "Its worth the wait".

Regards,
Don
post #11 of 97
Tom,

I will be doing my Beta test with a Sony 10HT. I will keep you posted and should be able to answer your questions.

Ron Hastings

------------------
Lex/MC1, Cinepro, SL3, Logo, Tripoles, Sony 10HT
post #12 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by sbeall:
How does the Grayhawk differ from Dalite's HC screen - if at all?
The GrayHawk has multiple optical coatings applied to it.
I can't speak for the Da-lite material as I have yet to see it.
Regards,
Don
post #13 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Blake:
Don,

I would LOVE to hear open comments from the Beta testers on the GreyHawk screen. I recently purchased a Sony 10HT projector and have decided to delay my screen purchase until the GreyHawk is released. I had been planning to get a Studiotek 130. For an interim solution I bought a cheap, manual pull-down screen. This will do as a stop-gap measure; but what I really want is a motorized, tensioned, drop-down Stewart screen. If the GreyHawk works well with the 10HT I will certainly be looking at buying one next year, when they're released! In your previous post you mentioned you had tested the Sony 10HT with the GreyHawk screen. Does it have enough light output to be a good match? Does it require the Cinema Black mode to be set to "OFF", in order to increase light output? Looking forward to hearing some real-world feedback on the GreyHawk screen!

Tom
Dear Mr. Blake.

We have a Sony VPL HT 10 Beta Tester, Mr. Ron Hastings in the beta program.
He will be able to report his findings on this forum.
To answer your question about projector power required. Our testing
as indicated that we would like to see 18 ANSI lumens per square foot of screen surface. If the screen is perforated we would like to see 20 lumens per square foot. With Sony Ht 10 we have the Cinema Black level setting "ON" which as you already know reduces the light output from 1000 lumens to 750 lumens. This will still allow you to get a stunning image off a 110 inch (54"by 96") 16 by 9 screen.
Peak light output will be a respectable 17 foot lamberts with deep rich blacks.

Regards,
Don
post #14 of 97
Don,

Thanks for the info and that sounds great! I don't require a perforated screen, so it appears I'd be in good shape even with Cinema Black set to "ON". I'm glad I decided to wait on the GreyHawk screen! I will be using a 16:9 screen in the exact dimensions you quoted.

Ron,

Thanks and I look forward to your reports on how the GreyHawk performs with the 10HT.

Regards,

Tom
post #15 of 97
Don,

Hmm... I emailed a couple of times but no answer. Maybe the email address in your profile is not right?

I hope I didn't miss out on this beta test - but it seems too late.

Dan Henderson

------------------
Dan Henderson
dan@net-impress.com
post #16 of 97
Don,

Wow! Now I'm really excited to test this screen! I was having Beta remorse about possibly not having enough light output for the GrayHawk from my 1000 lumen projector. I will be testing on a 54"x96" with the Sharp XV-DW100U. But from what you said to Mr. Blake about the stunning image and rich blacks even at 750 lumens, I am feeling much better. This sounds very promising, indeed!
Regards,

Carey Portnoy
post #17 of 97
Don (anyone?):

Like many others here, I'm holding off buying a screen until the Greyhawk comes out. Do you have a ~rough~ idea when it will start shipping? A reseller told my installer that it wouldn't be for 6-9 months, but my installer thought he might have been confused with the blackhawk. (I hope he was!).

So, any idea? 1 month? 3 months? 6 months?

(Sorry if this question has been asked before (but if it has, I couldn't find it!), or if this is the wrong place - but this looked like the active thread on the Greyhawk.)

- Dave
post #18 of 97
Don
Just a quick question or two. How did you arrive at 17ft ft lamberts ?
At 750 on a .8 gain screen should this not be 11.05 ft Lamberts ?

Quote:
"Cinema Black level setting "ON" which as you already know
reduces the light output from 1000 lumens to 750 lumens. This
will still allow you to get a stunning image off a 110 inch (54"by
96") 16 by 9 screen.
Peak light output will be a respectable 17 foot lamberts with deep
rich blacks."

What is your best electric motorized screen for the Blackhawk fabric that will not curl and wrinkle after years of up and down operation ?
Nearly every motorized screen I have seen has drama at keeping the material straight.
I am looking at a 100" 1.85.1 screen for a 1000 Ansi DLP.
I guess cost will become a factor but quality is important.

DavidW
post #19 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave T:
Don (anyone?):

Like many others here, I'm holding off buying a screen until the Greyhawk comes out. Do you have a ~rough~ idea when it will start shipping? A reseller told my installer that it wouldn't be for 6-9 months, but my installer thought he might have been confused with the blackhawk. (I hope he was!).

So, any idea? 1 month? 3 months? 6 months?

(Sorry if this question has been asked before (but if it has, I couldn't find it!), or if this is the wrong place - but this looked like the active thread on the Greyhawk.)

- Dave
Dear Dave.

I think our retail dealer got the GrayHawk front screen and the BlackHawk
rear projection screen confused. The GrayHawk should be avaiable in late January 2001. The BlackHawk Rear screen will follow in early spring 2001.

Regards,
Don
post #20 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by David Wallis:
Don
Just a quick question or two. How did you arrive at 17ft ft lamberts ?
At 750 on a .8 gain screen should this not be 11.05 ft Lamberts ?

Quote:
"Cinema Black level setting "ON" which as you already know
reduces the light output from 1000 lumens to 750 lumens. This
will still allow you to get a stunning image off a 110 inch (54"by
96") 16 by 9 screen.
Peak light output will be a respectable 17 foot lamberts with deep
rich blacks."

What is your best electric motorized screen for the Blackhawk fabric that will not curl and wrinkle after years of up and down operation ?
Nearly every motorized screen I have seen has drama at keeping the material straight.
I am looking at a 100" 1.85.1 screen for a 1000 Ansi DLP.
I guess cost will become a factor but quality is important.

DavidW
Dear Dave.

You scared me. So I went back and recalculated and confirmed the 17 plus foot lamberts is correct. Here is the formula for peak foot lambert brightness so you can recheck your figures.
Projector Lumens divided by screen square footage multiplied by screen gain equals peak foot lamberts.
750 lumens divided by 36 sq.ft of screen surface area X .85 gain equals 17.68 foot lamberts.
By the way..We checked the Sony Ht 10 last night with the Cinema Black level
"on" and measured 752 lumens of light. The lamp has 17 hours logged. Its nice to see a product conform with the published spec.

Regards,
Don
post #21 of 97
Don,

Thanks for the additional information! It sounds more and more like the GrayHawk will be a great match for the Sony 10HT. I look forward to feedback from the beta testers. If it lives up to its billing I will surely be ordering one next year in a Luxus Model A package.

Tom
post #22 of 97
Don,

Just wondering if the company has plans to create different screens for dimmer/brighter projectors? By using your forumlas and examples, my 400 lumen project will not be able to reach your specified output. Have you considered a higher gain version or one with a higher white balance?

Quote:
Originally posted by sbeall:
Or is it a gray colored matrix of some sort in which float numerous relective particles, some of which stick up out of the matrix like icebergs and reflect the projected light?

Scott, if you look real hard you might be able to see the blonds and the readheads. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/tongue.gif jk
post #23 of 97
Just installed a GreyHawk, Lexus, aperature mount MicroPerf in a client's home. Still haven't put a picture up on the screen. None-the-less, the client walked into the room, looked at the screen and said "I thought my screen was going to be grey?" Unless you have the standard brillant white fabric next to it, it's grey cast is not at all apparent. Measurements, this weekend.

------------------
D. Erskine
DEsign Cinema Privee
www.DEsignCinema.com
Imagine what you could do, if you could do all you imagine.
post #24 of 97
Dennis,

That's good news compared to the sample of Da-Lite's HC Da-Mat I received. It's incredibly dark, although Blake Brubaker indicated they made a mistake in the sample run and the gain was actually around 0.6. Glad to hear the GrayHawk appears much lighter.

Tom
post #25 of 97
Interested in seeing what this new Greyhawk screen will do. The blacks are decent on the new Sony 10HT, but any improvement would be a huge leap towards a good CRT picture.
post #26 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by sbeall:
What is the actual physical construction of the screen matrix in the Greyhawk? Is it simply a gray coated matte screen? Or is it a gray colored matrix of some sort in which float numerous relective particles, some of which stick up out of the matrix like icebergs and reflect the projected light?

Dear Sbeall,

How a Gray matte screens works and how the GrayHawk screen works.
Let me try to address your questions.

You asked if the GrayHawk screen was simply a gray coated matte surface. The answer is no...it's a lot more than that. But let's start with a gray base matte screen. Indeed..a biased gray base matte surface will enhance the black levels of your image and give the viewer the illusion of a considerable higher contrast ratio. The truth is the actual contrast ratios will be the same as with a matte white base screen. If one were to measure the screen with instruments, the lab conclusion would not agree with what ones eyes are seeing. Let's face it...motion pictures and video are an illusion. The way that the human brain perceives images can be maximized by understanding how it works. When the human eyes sees an image, it sends the information to the brain where the data is constantly being analyzed, measured and compared with past experiences that have been filed away in our memory. We are literally always seeking visual cues that we are familiar with to interpret and confirm the data we are seeing. This is is how the eye/brain determines distance, speed, scale etc. When one properly designs a quality screening room, MOST of the visual cues that our brains normally rely upon to interpret data disappear in the darkness of the room. I emphasized MOST because the one real visual cue that remains is the BLACKNESS of the room and black screen frame/masking. Now, when one projects an image on a screen in the center of this black visual cue, our brain is now comparing the black level of the image with the black level of the room. The brain knows that the black around the screen is "really black." If the screen images deepest black level does not compare to the known black, then we reject the projected image as being untrue. With a gray matte screen you are biasing the gray scale of the projected image to agree with the only reliable visual cue in your eyes field of view which is the black level that surrounds the screen. The perceived effect is better contrast.

So what happens to the whites? What are the down sides? The white actually turns to light gray. But since there are no true white visual cues in the darkened room, the white light (really light gray) that is diffused on the screen is fully interpreted as true white. The above basic gray plain matte surface works well and the DIY crowd can make a poor mans enhanced contrast screen with a proper formula paint.

As a professional Screen Maker and Designer, it is my job to build a high performance Porsche race car version of the above screen. With over 50 years of experience manufacturing front projection optical coatings, we applied a highly diffusive and reflective translucent coating over the gray base of the screen. This coating allows us to recover a considerable amount of light that would be lost on a plain gray matte surface. The coating also allows us to use a darker base gray than you would dare use with just the gray matte finish, thus enhancing the black level and shadowing even more. Unlike the plain gray matte surface, the ACTUAL dynamic contrast ratio of the GrayHawk screen image is increased by over 22 percent. When you combine the actual 22 percent contrast increase with the perceived contrast increase that the gray matte screens gives you, your image will have the dynamics and visual fidelity that LCD, DLP and DILA owners have only dreamed about in the past.

Regards,
Don Stewart


[This message has been edited by Don Stewart (edited 12-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Don Stewart (edited 12-18-2000).]
post #27 of 97
I'm interested in hearing if the reflective translucent coating creates any hotspotting in the image. Don, do you have any numbers for the optimal viewing angles for the GreyHawk? Hopefully some of the beta testers can chime in with their impressions soon..

Dave.

[This message has been edited by David Panko (edited 12-14-2000).]
post #28 of 97
Don..what is your web address...I want to find a dealer in Montreal as I want to start getting the playing field ready on this Greyhawk screen.Looking at a 16 x 9 screen...96x54....what is a ballpark dollar figure for this in US$.I know the product is not yet released so I won't hold you to it.But I would like to start saving my pennies...Thanks
post #29 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Rosano:
Don..what is your web address...I want to find a dealer in Montreal as I want to start getting the playing field ready on this Greyhawk screen.Looking at a 16 x 9 screen...96x54....what is a ballpark dollar figure for this in US$.I know the product is not yet released so I won't hold you to it.But I would like to start saving my pennies...Thanks

Dear Rosano,
Our Web site is: stewartfilm.com.
The List price for the Grawhawk in a 110" 16 x 9 with standard frame is $1394 USD. I suspect the street price to be less.
In Montreal try: LE GROUPE KE' BECSON INC.
(514) 270-7900 and AUDIO CENTRE, (514) 731-5090
Please be advised that at this stage the readers on the forum know more about gray screens than the dealers do. So do not be surprised if the dealers say "What are Gray Screens?"
post #30 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by joeyc:
hello don, i was wondering what the price of a 90 inch diagonal grayhawk screen is going to cost? the studiotek 130 costs about $4000 Australian us$2000 her in sydney, hopefully it will be less
The list price for a 90 inch studiotek screen and frame is $1100. in the States. If I recall correctly the Australian import duties and tariffs are quite high on imports from the USA.
Regards,
Don
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