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on the issue of flags:HDCP - Page 11  

post #301 of 321
Quote:
Originally posted by analog8
I bought a set compliant with the HD standard that had both analog (component) and digital (DVI) inputs. Why shouldn't I expect it to play HD content? Your Beta/VHS analogy is completely inappropriate.
And your set plays HD content. At some unspecified point in the future, some HD content may be blocked, but that doesn't lessen your set's ability to play HD content. Another analogy you might prefer: It's like you bought a receiver with only Dolby Digital, and are now complaining that some content will come only in DTS in the future.

Quote:
I have no problem replacing my $15k set if there is some amazing new technology. I do have a problem replacing it so I can buy the latest DVD player which now includes HDCP.
So don't buy the new DVD player, then. Or don't buy any HDCP DVDs. You'll still have plenty of HD content to watch. It's not like HDCP will suddenly cause your set to stop working entirely.

Quote:
Not to mention (a) the collusion of vendors and the MPAA who have effectively co-opted the HD standard and (b) the likelihood that they will repeat this stunt every couple of years unless they are called on it.
There is no indication that they will "repeat this stunt every couple of years". History has shown that they will leave formats alone once they reach critical mass. They left CSS alone even after it was cracked. Ditto with Macrovision.
post #302 of 321
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree with both of your points.

Again, you are using a weak analogy. Dolby Digital and DTS are two distinctly different standards. Of course I don't expect support for undefined future standards in a consumer product.

High definition video in the US is a set of somewhat well defined standards however. The only change that broke compatibility of my set with new HD devices now coming out is HDCP itself, which serves no useful function to the consumer, only to the MPAA.

The 'future' scenario you describe is here today. My HD set won't work in HD mode with the latest crop of DVD players already shipping from some vendors, or a bunch more announced at CEDIA this week, which all use HDCP on the DVI output. The only vendors offering this (Bravo) appear to be violating the terms of their own license agreement, so they are unlikely to last long.

And they have already started to futz with HDCP to add new features. HDCP 1.0 is already three years old and has serious security holes. See my thread about the HDCP 1.1 spec in this forum, and the new features DCP have added to it. What will the interoperability impact of HDCP 1.1 be on people who purchased HDCP 1.0 compliant devices? What about HDCP 2.0?
post #303 of 321
Quote:
Originally posted by UnnDunn
Another analogy you might prefer: It's like you bought a receiver with only Dolby Digital, and are now complaining that some content will come only in DTS in the future.
You can buy a DTS decoder that converts a DTS digital signal to analog signals that are compatible with your existing audio equipment.

You cannot buy an HDCP decrypter that converts an HDCP digital signal to an analog signal (or to a non-HDCP digital signal) that is compatible with your existing video equipment.
post #304 of 321
I agree with most of what analog8 is saying. However, aren't we speculating here a bit too much? So far analog8 can watch all HD that is available out there. Is there a set date when this is going to stop? Isn't it possible that by the time it happens analog8 will replace his HDTV stuff anyway?
Just hoping that **** will not happen. :cool:

Andrzej
post #305 of 321
Andrzej

Apart from the new crop of SD-DVD players with HDCP, there is widespread speculation that the new HD-DVD standard due in the next year or two will be HDCP only, with perhaps a 480p analog output for what the industry is now calling 'legacy HDTV sets' (i.e. those without HDCP).
post #306 of 321
Well let's say this becomes a problem. I'm told that the Sony HD sets' "white stripe" bug was fixed with a software patch. Might there not be some way to update the software, even if there is a fee for it?
post #307 of 321
No, because the HDCP licensing agreement are structured in such a way to make aftermarket upgrades almost impossible, because of 'robustness' concerns (i.e. resistance to hacking). A full HDCP implementation definitely requires silicon upgrades rather than new firmware.

Per Mark's suggestion, here is a link to a thread on the new HDCP 1.1 spec and what they have added over the original HDCP 1.0 spec. I'd appreciate some comments.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...postid=2646497
post #308 of 321
There is surely enough of what it is and why it's there, but where are the threads on how it is done????

If it can be done it can be un-done. (I don't mean spending $1,000 for 169time either!)
post #309 of 321
Are you saying that soon i will not be able to watch HD feeds from HBO and Showtime and Discovery through my 4DTV and HDD200? These feed a DWIN Transcanner and HD700. I understand that I need adapters to make the RbGbY out to RGBHV if I buy a new HDTV recorder. I may also have to buy a DVI to VGA converter. R u saying that the limitation of what I can see at 1080i only occurs if I try to record HDCP encoded material on a non HDCP equipped DVI deck? Will my DTC100 no longer be capable of passing the network OTA HD feeds? If that is true, someone needs to alert Congress. I assure you, THEY DO NOT HAVE A CLUE!!!!
post #310 of 321
I have been following this and am relatively new to this debate/discussion. I recently bought a pwd42 and am right on the verge of buying the dvi blade for it and have just placed an order for the bravo d1 dvd with no hdcp or whatever. Will this pose a problem for me? while true that my native res. is 480p am I screwing myself with buying either additional product, dvi blade or bravo d1 now? I would think that there would be some update or firmware or exchange if panasonic makes the blade and it poses a problem with compatibility with no hdcp??? Please help thanks., Sean
post #311 of 321
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by MrHifi
Are you saying that soon i will not be able to watch HD feeds from HBO and Showtime and Discovery through my 4DTV and HDD200? These feed a DWIN Transcanner and HD700. I understand that I need adapters to make the RbGbY out to RGBHV if I buy a new HDTV recorder. I may also have to buy a DVI to VGA converter. R u saying that the limitation of what I can see at 1080i only occurs if I try to record HDCP encoded material on a non HDCP equipped DVI deck? Will my DTC100 no longer be capable of passing the network OTA HD feeds? If that is true, someone needs to alert Congress. I assure you, THEY DO NOT HAVE A CLUE!!!!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...85#post2763385
post #312 of 321
well I guess the issue of my panny dvi blade is not an issue at all it will accept both non and hdcp signals according to another post, however the issue remains if the bravo d1 will be an issue if, and I say if, dvd's will be encoded with the format or something? As I hear it it's more of a hardware encryption v1 or v2 and so since my dvi blade doesn't care then it should be cool! right? thanks, I love this board!
post #313 of 321
Quote:
Originally posted by MrHifi
If that is true, someone needs to alert Congress. I assure you, THEY DO NOT HAVE A CLUE!!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by peebee
FYI: Attached below is a copy of a letter I just sent Rep. Schakowsky. Feel free to copy and/or modify any part of this for your own uses. If you're not sure who your congressman is, just go to http://www.house.gov and type in your zip code. You can even email them from the same site! It couldn't be easier!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Congresswoman Schakowsky:

It was only recently that I learned of the new copyright protection system standards, such as the High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) system, and the impact it would have on people like me who have purchased a High Definition television in anticipation of the federally mandated conversion to digital broadcasting. Unfortunately, it appears that if HDCP is implemented as currently outlined, my brand new television will become obsolete -- or more accurately, would have been obsolete the day I bought it. This impacts not only me, but roughly 90% of the installed base of HDTV sets -- over 2 million Americans would find that the expensive new HDTV sets that they recently purchased are not capable of displaying HD content.

Furthermore, the HDCP standards would specifically outlaw any upgrades to this equipment which would permit me to view HD content from such common sources as DVDs, cable, etc; my only legal source of HD material would be broadcast television.

It appears that through H.R. 107, Congressman Boucher is one of the few out there who are actively trying to protect our rights to legitimate uses of this equipment by declaring legal to "manufacture, distribute, or make noninfringing use of a hardware or software product capable of enabling significant noninfringing use of a copyrighted work."

I strongly urge you to support H.R. 107. I'm happy to discuss any of the issues raised here; please write or call me to let me know where you stand on these issues.
post #314 of 321
MAn, I'd love to write my Congressman. Unforunately, I have the displeasure of having James Sensenbrenner as my representitve. This is the same man that had his trip to Asia paid for by the RIAA. He's as "in the pocket" as they get. I hope this guy doesn't get re-elected. I plan to do everything possible to see that doesn't happen. BTW, kudos to all the other reps that looked the other way when the VERY obvious, and illegal, indiscretion was pointed out by the press.
post #315 of 321
Quote:
Originally posted by Malachy
Do we yet know what precisely downrezzing will mean in terms of diminished picture quality for those who own monitors without DVI HDCP? Will 1080i be reduced to 720p or 480i or something even less robust? Or will there be no picture at all? Will those who own ED plasmas (enhanced definition monitors such as the popular Panny plasmas) rather than true HD plasma monitors experience less PQ degredation?
Downrez is supposed to go to SDTV, which is 480p (if I recall correctly). Which is about equivalent to progressive scan DVD.

And I think the broadcasters already have their behinds covered, when they state at the beginning of a HDTV broadcast "in HDTV, where available"... in other words, if your set doesn't have HDCP and we downrez it, tough beans........
post #316 of 321
Perhaps a naive question / suggestion:


Am I to presume that it will be illegal (or technically too difficult) to have a STB that accepts DVI input and outputs component video (or SVGA)?

It seems to me the main effect of HDCP has been to delay the adoption of HDTV protocols by the network affiliates.

William Wood.
post #317 of 321
Quote:
Originally posted by AceCannon
Am I to presume that it will be illegal . . . to have a STB that accepts DVI input and outputs component video (or SVGA)?
Yup.

From the HDCP license at http://www.digital-cp.com/data/HDCPlicense061402b.pdf (courtesy of amillians -- and yes, I know this is the old license, I'm too lazy to look up the v2.0 license or whatever it's called):

"A Repeater shall not permit the output of Decrypted HDCP Content in any analog representation."
post #318 of 321
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by AceCannon
Perhaps a naive question / suggestion:


Am I to presume that it will be illegal (or technically too difficult) to have a STB that accepts DVI input and outputs component video (or SVGA)?

It seems to me the main effect of HDCP has been to delay the adoption of HDTV protocols by the network affiliates.

William Wood.
yes-the whole point of this scheme is robustness of hardware design so no DVI HDCP video can be output as component analog

the networks et al want HDCP implemented first : they are holding out the prospect of more HD content once they get their way: they seem to be getting what they want- let's hope we get a lot more HD content in return
post #319 of 321
Quote:
Originally posted by markrubin
yes-the whole point of this scheme is robustness of hardware design so no DVI HDCP video can be output as component analog

the networks et al want HDCP implemented first : they are holding out the prospect of more HD content once they get their way: they seem to be getting what they want- let's hope we get a lot more HD content in return
Content providers are having a difficult time figuring out this whole digital paradigm. It may seem secure, robust, technically difficult etc. But imho, the chance that HDCP (or any high def encryption scenario) will be cracked is 100%. (See DeCSS, etc). The networks know this. They are happy about the glacial rate at which these issues are addressed - more time to drag their feet rolling out new hardware and programming.

Pessimism? I think not.
post #320 of 321
Thread Starter 
please see this link for a more upbeat take on this subject:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...03#post2903003

moderators note: this thead is dated: since it started, we have all learned much more about flags, HDCP, and HDMI, and there have been several rulings that affect how copy protection might be implemented

so it is time to close this thread while we work on updates: we will continue to post links here to any important updates on the subject

Thank you
post #321 of 321
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