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the JERSEY SHORE SHOOTOUT: Fujitsu Vs Pioneer - Page 2  

post #31 of 181
I'm really interested in seeing some pix after the Fujitsu is calibrated. The black level is certainly better in the Fujitsu, but I think I prefer the more muted colors of the Pio, and wondering if that's due to the Fuj not yet being calibrated? The second pic on the Fuj looks too green to me.. just an opinion :-)
post #32 of 181
Wow thanks very much to both of you for doing this. With so many little sound-bites of information around it's hard to 100% get a gauge on how much superior the Fujitsu is, so thanks very much for this invaluable review! Unfortunately it doesn't help me figure out if the 3-4K more is worth it, but that's my problem now:)

-pbannist
post #33 of 181
You guys da men! :)

-- Gary
post #34 of 181
Quote:
the Fujitsu is still in its shipping box bottom , sitting on the floor in front of my center channel speaker, underneath the Pro1000
LOL! That sounds like my setup. Can't wait for the wall mounts to be released for the 50x. Those styrofoam "feet" are ok for a temporary solution, but the do block the IR receiver.

Thanks so much for the great review. I am happy you like the 50x. As a proud and happy new owner of one, I couldn't agree more.
post #35 of 181
here is an observation: comparing the first two d-vhs pics, there is more stuff discernible in the dark shadows under the bamboo spout, for example with the pioneer. There has been a long standing claim that while blacker, the panasonic glass (and Fujitsu), tended to compress detail in the lower IRE ranges.

might be a minor issue, but it is visible in your pics. Maybe worth looking at in more detail?
post #36 of 181
Please take a screen shot of the movie Gladiator on DVD like we have seen so far on the Pio and Panny.

So far I like the panny the most.
LL
post #37 of 181
Pio
LL
post #38 of 181
Looking at these pictures, I definitely prefer the Pioneer colors. As for black levels, it does not look like night and day difference. I am surprised to say the least. Too much green on the Fuji side.
post #39 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by Veech
I'm really interested in seeing some pix after the Fujitsu is calibrated. The black level is certainly better in the Fujitsu, but I think I prefer the more muted colors of the Pio, and wondering if that's due to the Fuj not yet being calibrated? The second pic on the Fuj looks too green to me.. just an opinion :-)
Veech, unfortunately these picture will never show the differences between the two displays that Mark and I saw. The distance from each display varied each time I took a shot which in itself introduces a variable. The camera does a different white balance each time you snap the shutter, another variable. Even after calibration I seriously doubt you'd see any difference from a 640x480 digital picture. There just isn't any way to show the colors or dynamic range of these displays let alone a comparison of the two. Interestingly it was the Pioneer that had the bias towards the green yet the Fujitsu photograhed as if IT had the bias. It doesn't, so take these pix with a grain of salt. I had serious reservations about posting them as a means to see the differences that Mark and I saw. These differences are virtually gone in these pix. Also keep in mind that without seeing the actual video, you really don't know how these scenes are SUPPOSED to look. One scene that looks more green may have actually been more green OR the camera just didn't acurately capture the colors. I would really caution everyone to use our verbal descriptions in differentiating these 2 displays rather than these pictures. The pix are just for fun as opposed to making any conclusions on relative merits.

Pbannist, remember when calculating the price difference in displays, factor in the cost of a DVI/HDCP card which the Fujitsu already has. Use that as your basis for comparison. The cost of an add on card for a non-Fujitsu display such as the Pioneer will be in the area of $1,500.

Jlm, again the photographs are themselves masking much of the shadow detail that was present. Mark and I agreed there was not all that much difference between the 2 dispalys in this area with a slight edge going to the Pioneer. However, IMO, the very significant increase in picture depth and reality of night and space scenes as an example, more than made up for that. You have to decide which is more important to you.

MAB, same explanations for your observations as above. The pix really distort what we saw. I probably would have been better off not posting these since people are placing way too much importance on them. In some respects they are almost reversing the actual differences that were there. The case of the Fujitsu appearing more green in the pix is a classic case. The Pioneer was unquestionably the display that appeared more green in "real life".
post #40 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by markrubin


both displays are fed the same component video signals from a Key Digital Switcher -no video processor is used-
For a novice like me, does that mean you used the "normal" functions of the display and card .... or does that mean you bypassed the cards and used your nice equipment to drive the display?

In other words, do I have to buy lots of expense stuff to drive the Fujitsu when I get one???

Thanks for doing the test, in my short time in the market - the Pioneer Elite has been the hands down winner - based on the limited displays in town. Am very interested in the new Fujitsu, may have to take a drive to Dallas.
post #41 of 181
I think you need some other observers to improve the sample size. Maybe someone in the NYC metro area? ;)
post #42 of 181
Dan, no additional equipment necessary to drive either display. The switcher only enabled Mark to change input devices quickly and conveniently. They had no effect on picture quality and were transparent in that regard.
post #43 of 181
Mark and Ken-
Thanks for all the input. I have to admit that I find your opinions very helpful, as compared to the pics (interesting, but I find it difficult to discern a qualitative difference from the pics). I think it is as much a test of my mediocre monitor as the diff (to AVS members) between the two units.
I wanted to go back and qualify the better "blacks" issue. I am assuming that you find the Fujitsu blacks not only "blacker"...but perhaps with more DETAIL within the blacks ?
Again, this is GREAT stuff...great reporting and A-B comparison test !:cool:
post #44 of 181
Wolvernole, thanks and that's another excellent comment regarding taking the pictures with a grain of salt. It is very true that the monitor you view these pix on is another VERY important filter in this process. I've got 3 computers with 3 monitors that render color very differently (2 CRTs and 1 LCD). Use the pix for fun and not much else.

Regarding the blacks, yes the Fujitsu absolutely had blacker blacks than the Pioneer but I would not say there was more detail in those blacks. I'd say they were very close in that regard (remember Mark's Fujitsu had nothing more than a brief setup while the Pioneer had a full ISF). Mark commented how much better the Fujitsu was out of the box than the Pioneer. I actually never got an ISF on my Fujitsu 5004 since I actually never felt a need for it. That's a first for me with any of my recent display devices. My prior units always needed it and no matter how much I tried tweaking them, I still wasn't happy. Not so with the Fujitsu.
post #45 of 181
Fabulous, men! What could be more orgasmic for us plasma-heads than this thread?!!

I appreciate your work to the extreme. Boy, I lust after that Fujitsu...

Rich H.
post #46 of 181
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dixon
I think you need some other observers to improve the sample size. Maybe someone in the NYC metro area? ;)
I agree- the equipment will be maintained as described for a few weeks-

PM me if you want to improve the sample size

screen shots cannot replace actual A/B observations: Ken and I both agreed on the observations noted

Mark:)
post #47 of 181
Great screen shots. Re the two "Gladiator" shots, it confirms what my eyes have told me on any Pioneer set up I've seen- from specialty AV stores to the chain stores-that the Pioneer has an obvious green bias which, apparently, cannot be corrected. For the superior colors, black levels, and clarity of image the Fujitsu is worth the few thousand more. I look at it this way; either unit is going to cost thousands- I'd feel cheated if I knew I spent thousands of dollars and still did not get what I really wanted. There's an old expression in the sales world: "Better to spend a little more than you planned and get what you really want than to spend a little less than you should- and lose everything."
post #48 of 181
WOW you folks are great!

Thank you Ken & Mark. I really appreciate the time and enthusiasm to do this comparo -AND put it nicely in words and pictures :)

Cheers,
Kishore
post #49 of 181
I had been debating the merits of these two plasmas for the last 2 weeks, and had read some largely anecdotal pieces indicating slightly better PQ for the Fujitsu. Have the opportunity to get the Fujitsu for about 2K more than the Pioneer Plasmaextreme price. That's still a lot of money, but you have to factor in the DVI-HDCP of the Fujitsu. Finally decided to go with the Fujitsu P50HXA10 after agonizing with the decision. Awaiting delivery in a couple of weeks. Reading your direct comparison of these two models on this thread makes me glad I did. The Fujitsu sounds awesome. Thanks again.
post #50 of 181
Ken & Mark-

I think I have figured out why the freeze frame shots will not represent what you saw in the moving images (live). I only noticed this by zooming in on the two images of the 'Creek Scene' in photoshop. The running water, is ever so slightly different, which leads me to believe that the two images are possibly not 100% of the exact frame (or still image). Life like color effects can be produced by a shimmering effect of the pixels lighting either from frame to frame (changing in saturation, etc) or within a frame. Think of it almost like a strob effect. Then depending on when the shutter of the camera snaps, the captured image may or may not represent accuracy.

So for whatever reason - is it possible that the two images are not truly showing the exact time slice? Be it processing delay or whatever?

.02

Bruce
post #51 of 181
Thank you very much for the detailed comparison of these 2 great
plasmas. I have question concerning how well the fujitsu stretches
4x3 images. Also will it fill the screen if you are viewing a dvd that is
in letter box and if so how well does it do it.
post #52 of 181
Elysandi, yes the Fujitsu or the Sony HD200 STB that Mark used in this shootout will provide various stretch modes for a 4:3 picture. The Fujitsu itself has various stretch modes (wide, zoom 1, zoom 2 etc.) to fill the frame of a 4:3 picture. In my setup I use the Sony HD200 to fill the screen with a 4:3 picture. That box has a Panaroma mode which is actually a variable stretch that leaves the inner 75% or so untouched and then gradually stretches the picture towards the edges.
post #53 of 181
Ken, can you explain the various stretch modes of the Fujitsu? I recall reading here that the Panasonics had nicer, variable stretch modes than some other plasmas. The Panasonics have modes like the Sony STB that leave the center unstretched and stretch the sides more.
post #54 of 181
Quietman:

How do you discern that the Pioneer Gladiator picture is “green†compared to the Panny’s? I think the Panny’s colour is off. Take a look at the colour of the chest armour. It’s almost blue on the Panny, which isn’t the right colour at all, IMO.

Anyone else familiar with Gladiator care to comment?
post #55 of 181
I think that it has already been pointed out that the color calibration on the camera that took the picture may not be accurate and compound that with no two of our monitors are color calibrated the same.

Ron
post #56 of 181
Ronald K:

If you're referring to my question about Gladiator, those pictures were taken by cheridave and me and posted in a different thread. Chris J copied and pasted them here.

My question, which is off topic for this thread, is why someone thinks the Pioneer Gladiator picture looks green, compared to the Panny, and which of the 2 displays is showing the correct chest armour colour. IMO, the Panny’s flesh tone is greener than the Pioneer’s.
post #57 of 181
Quote:
Originally posted by CKarras
Ken, can you explain the various stretch modes of the Fujitsu? I recall reading here that the Panasonics had nicer, variable stretch modes than some other plasmas. The Panasonics have modes like the Sony STB that leave the center unstretched and stretch the sides more.
The following are the different modes available with 4:3 material:
Normal- Displays 4:3 as 4:3
Auto- The screen size changes automatically in accordance with contents
Wide 1- This is the gradual stretch you referred to. The center is left pretty much intact and the stretching takes place near the edges. This is akin to the Sony/Zenith Panaroma mode
Wide 2- Don't recall what this does precisely. The maual refers to it as a means of stetching "vertically extended pictures".
Zoom1- As you'd expect, it enlarges the entire picture, maintaining aspect ratio
Zoom 2- This is from the manual: Reduces the height of horizontally extended pictures with captions, without eliminating the caption. Only the height of the picture is reduced, not the height of the caption.

Hope that helps.
post #58 of 181
Just one more comment on pictures in general. Don't take them too seriously. They mask picture detail, they mask shadow detail, they alter color and are therefore a very UNRELIABLE way of predicting final picture quality. The pix I shot yesterday at Mark's house were extremely different than what we actually observed on screen. I'm sure the same is true of Jim's pix, Dave's pix, my pix or anyones pictures. Guys, just have fun with them and don't draw too many conclusions from this very sketchy "evidence". If you try to compare panels this way, you'll lose every time. You MUST, repeat MUST see these plasmas in person! There is just no way to overemphasize that point. This in no way replaces the visit to your dealer!!
post #59 of 181
i just spent a pleasant afternoon at the Rubin abode.

On the drive over, I concerned myself with the perils of the upcoming comparison which might leave me wanting to convert my pioneer into a fujistsu. Walking into Mark's display room underscored the concern. But this was a first impression, and as the tweaking went on, my concerns were tempered.

The F does have blacker blacks, seen by comparing IRE patches, background (when 2.35 material is displayed) and image details.

After tweaking brightness and contrast settings for both displays, the F still remained blacker by perhaps a full 10 IRE step. Detail resolution in the shadows, 20-30 IRE range, was virtually identical. The highlight settings were also so similar we could not distinguish a difference. This was after extensive user menu tweaking.

On the other hand, my opinion was that the color rendition was smoother on the pioneer, seen best in facial tone transitions which tended to be a bit too abrupt (contrasty, in a photgraphic sense) on the F. the color saturation seemed better on the P as well, particularly in more dimly lit condtions. (Faces in Gladiator pre-dawn battle scenes looked brighter and with more color in the P and not un-naturally so.) on the other other hand, less bright scenes with the P tended to have a slight veiled appearance compared to the F.

Color balance seemed off to me on both sets, even though the P had been calibrated by Cliff. there was a sort of beige/sepia tonal quality to the grey scale and this slightly affected pure whites in normal material. This might be viewed as a greenish tint, but it seemed more brown than green. The F however was purple-ish, definitely higher temp than 6500 and in need of a grey scale adjustment (the purple was more or less pronounced in different brightness ranges). we played with rgb balance and got the F to be quite close to the P for flesh tones in medium to strong light, but the overall image still tended to be purple. The P was overall better balanced for color temp and grey scale, except for the sepia tendency mentioned above.

We put on one of my favs, Roy Orbison in concert, all B/W. the F was almost purple black and super white, while the P was more sepia. both were off, though the F was more acceptable.



Bottom line: the F has built in HDCP and better blacks for an extra $2,000.
side by side, as viewed, the F might be more compelling due the apparantly larger dynamic range, but also sided by side, that purple wasn't right. assuming calibration can correct the purple of the F and the sepia of the P, its a close call. If you didn't see the two side by side you would love either one. If you weren't able to tweak each set, either one could show poorly.

as far as converting my P to an F...the jury is still out. I played Roy on my rig and it is definitely not sepia or greenish and its not cold black and white either, but I don't have the purple black F sitting next to it.

To reiterate, either of these displays looked great, but the side by side tended to exacerbate differences: cold purple black and more of it will make sepia look wrong, right or wrong.

edit note: we looked for a pattern as far as video noise, but when not looking at a frozen frame (which produces its own anomalies), and after setting brightness levels ith the black bars on avia, I had no issues. I realize some of these obsevations contradict Ken's, however, we did extensive modding and tweaking from the way the set was when I arrived today.

One last note: the F is sensitive to its sharpness setting. At the 0 setting, the "edge enhancement effect" was there, and I preferred a -5 setting. The image may seem more 3-D with the setting higher, but upon close inspection (12" away) you can see the white fringing at contrast break points in the image. Lessened sharpness take a bit to get used to, but most people prefer the naturalness of it once they adjust to the apparent loss of contrast (an artifact I would just as soon do away with)
post #60 of 181
Thread Starter 
Thanks John- always a pleasure- your car is neat!

I see setup/calibration issues on both displays that need to be resolved

the adjustments made today brought both displays much closer together in calibration, and mitigated some of the differences first observed

:)
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