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Little Rock, AR - HDTV - Page 6

post #151 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Azanon
[1.] ... I cant remember if you said Fox is transmitting digital full power yet.

[2.] ... Right now, both 7-1, and 11-1 are making my tv show a 4:3 image when i am in i1080 mode (my tv's native resolution). On those 2 channels, I have to put it on 480p to get it to fill my widescreen.

[1.] Fox (16-1) is the only digital broadcasting at full power from Shinall Mtn.
UPN (38-1) is the only digital broadcasing at full power from Redfield area (different tower than ABC (7-1).

If you want to try to get any missing channels, or if you later discover audio/video dropouts on 7-1 or 11-1, especially during weather/season changes, the CM 7777 preamp may solve your problems.

[2.] Your STB and TV formatting for 7-1 & 11-1 are working as they should for a 16:9 TV.

7-1 upconverts all SD/HD programming to 720p.
11-1 upconverts all SD/HD programming to 1080i.
Both of these channels are always in 16:9 format.

Any 4:3 programming on these channels is sent as a 16:9 image, with either black or gray bars on the sides of the 4:3 image to fill the 16:9 frame. The bar color is set by either the network or local station.

If your TV's brightness & contrast are set correctly (per AVIA or similar setup DVD), the sidebars shouldn't damage your screen.
post #152 of 12505
Quote:


If you want to try to get any missing channels, or if you later discover audio/video dropouts on 7-1 or 11-1, especially during weather/season changes, the CM 7777 preamp may solve your problems.

I asked the broadway fellow about the preamp. As i understand it, doesnt a preamp have to "plug-in" to an electrical outlet? The preamp hooks direclty onto the antenna right? If so, then i'd have to run a power cord from the top of my house to my nearest outdoor outlet. I want to try to avoid that if possible, or am i misunderstanding preamps?

My TV has a "LNA" mode that supposedly improves the reception in a weak-signal area. As i understand it, this IS a preamplifier. Is this what you're talking about? Only downside is, the antenna isnt directly plugged into the set since it has to run through the Decoder first, so i guess that function is useless anyway.

Quote:


Any 4:3 programming on these channels is sent as a 16:9 image, with either black or gray bars on the sides of the 4:3 image to fill the 16:9 frame. The bar color is set by either the network or local station.

I'm so glad to hear this. I was on pins and needles waiting to see the HD programming tonight hoping this would be fixed when HD content was sent.

Are the only HD programs on CBS and ABC during primetime, or is there some HD content during the day? From what i understand, it will only be for special events, like March Madness coming next year.
post #153 of 12505
Arxaw,

My Zenith 520 manuel suggests I connect the "out to TV" port on the zenith 520 to my TV's antenna In, in addition to my DVI connection. What functionality would this provide me? Right now, the only video cable i have going into my TV is my DVI cable from the 520 (and my component from my DVD) and my local channels seem to be working fine. However, i cant switch the widescreen mode type though (its permastuck in "wide" mode, no panorama, 4:3, etc.)

Thanks,

Azanon
post #154 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Azanon
Arxaw,

My Zenith 520 manuel suggests I connect the "out to TV" port on the zenith 520 to my TV's antenna In, in addition to my DVI connection. What functionality would this provide me? Right now, the only video cable i have going into my TV is my DVI cable from the 520 (and my component from my DVD) and my local channels seem to be working fine. However, i cant switch the widescreen mode type though (its permastuck in "wide" mode, no panorama, 4:3, etc.)

About the only thing the "out to TV" coax connection would do in your case is allow you to view analog OTA channels using your TV's NTSC tuner, when the STB is turned off, assuming the Zenith STB has antenna "loop though" when off. It might be helpful in using your TV's PIP function, but I'm not really sure. For Zenith specific questions not answered by the manual, try the hardware forum threads for the SAT520.

I'm not sure what you mean by "its permastuck in "wide" mode, no panorama, 4:3, etc.". Are you referring to the TV or the STB functions? And on which channels?

You might want to connect the S-video cable to the TV and switch the TV & STB to that input. That may allow you to use your picture formatting functions, but the picture quality would be worse.
post #155 of 12505
I'd dont really want to use any connection but the DVI though (but i'd consider a component connection). But my understanding is, the minimum connection for an HD signal is a component connection, with DVI being preferred. S-Video cant do 1080i right? (or 720p).

Ignore this if you want, just responding to you. I know its off-topic.
post #156 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Azanon
I'd dont really want to use any connection but the DVI though (but i'd consider a component connection). But my understanding is, the minimum connection for an HD signal is a component connection, with DVI being preferred. S-Video cant do 1080i right? (or 720p).

Correct.

S-video is only 480i, but it's an alternate way to view the 4:3 material on 7-1 & 11-1 using your formatting options (stretched, zoomed, etc.). But I'm certainly not recommending you use s-video connection, though. S-vid 480i would turn on the stretch/zoom, etc., but you would lose a lot of resolution.

Formatting is supposed to be locked on 720p & 1080i channels. Assuming your TV has been properly setup (contrast & brightness turned down to non-screen-burning levels), I would just watch 4:3 on 7-1 & 11-1 the normal way - via DVI with sidebars to fill out the 16:9 frame.

WRT compnent vs DVI, there should be no difference at all in PQ if you have a CRT projection set, and very little difference for other types. I don't recall what type of set you said you have....
post #157 of 12505
Thread Starter 
BTW, Azanon, how do you like the DirecTV HD channels so far?

Have you seen any true HD on ESPN-HD yet (most ESPN-HD stuff is 4:3 SD, upconverted to 720p & stretched to 16:9, instead of 4:3 + sidebars, like all the other HD networks do)? If not, there's a football game on toninght. California @ KS State. ~ 6:45pm
post #158 of 12505
Ive found i can get 7-1, and 11-1 to go fullscreen if i switch the output from 1080i to 480p.

So far, i'm loving the HD channels. They are just stunning. I havnt seen a sporting event on ESPN on true HD yet, but yeah i knew that football game was coming on tonight. So far, i found a good HDTV tv guide at HDTVgalaxy.com. The only downside to that guide is that it doenst have HDmovies channel on it.

Tonight, im going for hawain tropic beauties on HD net, followed by Hack and the District on CBS, in HD.

Azanon
post #159 of 12505
Thread Starter 
I've watched almost every episode of The District. Other good series on CBS are CSI & CSI Miami.

As for guides, I just use the DirecTV EPG, and the remote All the stuff on HDnet, HDnetMovies & DiscoveryHD are HD. The few HD events on ESPN are marked "HD" in the EPG.

Most ABC primetime non-news series and movies are HD, as are MNFootball.
CBS primetime non-news non-reality series are all HD.

Some primtime series look "softer" than stuff seen on DSCHD & HDnet. Some of this is intentional, especially on ABC.
post #160 of 12505
I was a little disappointed last night to see that both hack and the district were only stereo audio. I'm using the optical out to my Sterero, and my receiver has a blue light that comes on whenever the audio source is in Dolby Digital. But i can look on the panel and tell the exact audio format, and last night it was just plain, left/right stereo for CBS.

I only had one dropout that lasted about 10-15 seconds, during hack.
post #161 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Azanon
I was a little disappointed last night to see that both hack and the district were only stereo audio.

CBS has only recently attempted any DD 5.1 audio. I don't think any of their series this year are in DD 5.1, but maybe they will do some this fall. ABC & FOX supposedly do a lot more DD 5.1 than CBS. It will be widespread.... eventually.

I don't have a DD 5.1 system, so I don't know what's DD5.1 and what's not. I only have DPL, which works ok for me right now. I feed the L+R audio from the STB to the TV, and then out to the DPL receiver. The TV has an auto-sound-level feature, which I really like for leveling the volume between stations and lowering commercials' noise!

The CBS Owned & Operated (O & O) stations are supposed to be first in line for DD 5.1 satellite equipment. KTHV is not an O & O, so they may not have the DD5.1 installed yet.

Have you heard any DD5.1 at all on CBS? You might call KTHV-DT 376-1111 and ask to speak to Allison or anyone in engineering. They like to get reception reports from OTA viewers and are usually very helpful.

Or email Bob Ross at rjross@cbs.com He is in charge of CBS East Coast Operations, and is a member of AVS Forum.
post #162 of 12505
As I later learned from another forum, i dont think CBS is outputting DD 5.1 yet. AFAIK, ABC is though, and most if not all of their HD programming is in DD 5.1.

As i mentioned to you privately, an optical connection has all the capabilities of any lesser audio connection, thus is fullly sufficient at carrying DPL or whatever other type of sound format is being sent through it. I'm assuming at this point that CBS is not even sending DPL over their digital channel since my receiver is only showing front L&R audio on their HD shows.

I hope MNF tonight is in DD 5.1. That'll more than makeup for the upconvert my 1080i set must do to the 720p image.

Azanon
post #163 of 12505
.... but let me add that "true" HDTV is supposed to include DD 5.1 sound (or better). Not sure that's official or anything, but I thought that is generally what you are supposed to expect with HDTV programming. Then again, HD Discovery is not DD 5.1 either (whereas HDNet is).
post #164 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Azanon
.... but let me add that "true" HDTV is supposed to include DD 5.1 sound (or better).

No.

It is AC3 digital audio, but can have anywhere from 1 to 5.1 channels.

--------------------------------------------

From Wikipedia.org:

" Alias names

* Dolby Digital (promotion name, not accepted by the ATSC), often combined with channel count (DD 5.1)
* DD
* Dolby SR-Digital (for more than 2 channels)
* SR-D
* Audio Codec 3
* AC-3
* ATSC A/52 (name of the standard, current version is A/52 Rev. A)

This is all the same under different names.

Dolby Digital is the trademark for Dolby Laboratories' AC-3 lossy audio compression system. It supports anywhere from 1.0 channels (mono) to 5.1 channels (full surround) and also dual channel (1+1). "5.1" surround sound consists of the 5 full-range (10 Hz...22 kHz) channels (3 screen channels and 2 surround channels) plus the limited range (10 Hz...120 Hz) low frequency effect channel LFE.

The last version is Dolby Digital EX. an extension of dolby digital that provides 6.1 and 7.1 channel configurations by matrixing the channels (Dolby 5.1 otherwise uses discrete channel encoding.) This configuration offers more rear channels, and is less frequently used in home systems than in theaters.

The codec

The term AC-3 applies to the encoding process that creates the Dolby Digital files. Dolby Digital relies on perceptual coding to remove audio information that is disguised by other, louder frequencies in the waveform. In this sense it is an example of lossy data compression as these frequencies are not restored on playback.

Applications of Dolby Digital

Dolby Digital SR-D cinema sound tracks are optically recorded on a 35mm release print using sequential data blocks placed between every perforation hole on the sound track side of the film. A CCD scanner in the projector picks up a scanned video image of this area, and a processor correlates the image area and extracts the digital data as an AC-3 bitstream. This data is finally decoded into a 5.1 channel audio source.

Dolby Digital audio is also used on DVD Video and other purely digital media, like home cinema. In this format, the AC-3 bitstream is interleaved with the video and control bitstreams.

The system is used in many bandwidth-limited applications other than DVD, such as digital TV.

Bitrates range is from 32 to 640 kbits. For DVD data rates up to 448 kbps are allowed. AAC outperforms AC-3 at any bitrate, but is much more complex. Advantages of AAC become clearly audible at <400 kbps for 5.1 channels, at <180 kbps for 2.0 channels.

External links "
post #165 of 12505
OK.

But what can be taken from that, a DD capable link (ie: optical cable) should have no problem passing DD 4.0 sound - front, center, left, rear, no separate sub..... aka Dolby Pro-Logic.

^^

Quote:


Dolby Digital is the trademark for Dolby Laboratories' AC-3 lossy audio compression system. It supports anywhere from 1.0 channels (mono) to 5.1 channels (full surround) and also dual channel (1+1). "5.1" surround sound consists of the 5 full-range (10 Hz...22 kHz) channels (3 screen channels and 2 surround channels) plus the limited range (10 Hz...120 Hz) low frequency effect channel LFE.



So what's up with CBS and their stereo on the Digital channel? Is this a limitation of an OTA antenna that I didnt know about?
post #166 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Azanon
... So what's up with CBS and their stereo on the Digital channel? Is this a limitation of an OTA antenna that I didnt know about?

If you're referring to 2 channel audio (no surround), it could be several things. Your equipment may not be configured correctly OR it could be a digital flag sent by the station that disables your surround. I don't know.

DPL does work for me on KTHV-DT (CBS). You might contact the station and ask them about your lack of surround, or post in the Zenith STB forums, or in the audio forums.

I do know that it has absolutely nothing to do with a limitation of an OTA antenna.
post #167 of 12505
Hmm. OK i'll check in another forum then because it really shouldn't be necessary for me to set up a second audio link just to get pro-logic sound. I know for sure DD 5.1 is working cause it works fine on HDNet and HDMovies.
post #168 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Azanon
... it really shouldn't be necessary for me to set up a second audio link just to get pro-logic sound.

I don't think that should be necessary, either. I only suggested connecting the analog L+R (RCA-type) cables for DPL because I know for sure that would work.

The Zenith SAT520 threads or perhaps the Audio Setup threads would be more appropriate areas to ask these questions. Be sure and put your STB & AV receiver brand/model numbers in your posts or (better) your profile, under "HT Gear".

Good luck!
post #169 of 12505
Getting back to your post above, i found this glossary at hdtvprimer.com:

Dolby Digital 5.1: Also known as AC-3, it provides 6 channels of sound: left, center, right, left rear, right rear, and sub-woofer. It is also called 5.1 channels since the 6th channel has reduced bandwidth. Dolby Digital 5.1 is the audio standard for all U.S. digital TV stations, most DVDs, some DBS programs, and many theaters.

In the same glossary, AC-3 was listed. The definition? See Dolby Digital 5.1.

That AC-3, Dolby Digital 5.1, whatever, is backwards compatible I think would almost go without saying (ie: backwards compatible to Dolby Pro-Logic, or whathaveyou), though naturally it can be said. Regardless, AC-3, DD (5.1) or whatever synonym you choose to use IS the audio standard for HDTV. In my mind, if a station claims to be transmitting an HDTV signal, that signal should naturally carry an audio aspect, it should be transmitted in AC-3/DD5.1 format and should have NO difficulty outputting through one of the two only compatible digital forms of transmission - a Digital Optical cable or Digital Coaxial.

Said another way, IF the audio were to not work correctly - it should not work right on a red/white audio left+right, not my "appropriate" optical connection.

Sorry, it just erks me my HDTV audio cable (ac-3 compatible) isnt sufficient.

Azanon
post #170 of 12505
Thread Starter 
The reason I haven't bought a DD5.1 receiver yet is mainly because of the problems I've read about on the AVS Forum. The networks and stations don't have all the bugs worked out yet. DD problems have occured on both Satellite and OTA channels.

If the station is not sending the correct data flags, people have reported getting 2 channel sound, no sound, or no dialog on the digital connection. Another problem seems to be lip sync issues. I've never had those on my STB using DPL, but I have lost audio for weeks on KATV, mostly due to ignorance of how PSIP works and how it can affect audio.

Some local stations are really clueless about DTV. The cable company is even worse (scroll back and read some of the cable stories).

Here's part of an email I got regarding KATV PSIP problems that recently affected audio on my setup:
"As you've probably decided by now, DTV is a learning experience for everyone involved. There is only one person on our staff who has dealt with UHF transmitters before. No one is familiar with digital or PSIP. We strongly rely on Harris to guide us through the process and it appears Harris [equipt. mfg.] isn't as familiar as we had assumed.

In your problem one person at Harris told us to set the PSIP generator one way and another told us to set it up a different way to clear your problem. We can only try....
"

____________________________________

Email the GM at KARK-DT and tell him you want NBC in HD.
pchester@kark.com
post #171 of 12505
Well, i'm going to give the audio L/R hookup a try tonight. If it turns out that's the culpret, and i'm able to get Pro-Logic that way, then i'll probably end up leaving it that way. I doubt the sound will work properly with both audio connections, connected at the same time.

I'm having to jerry-rig my sound right now anyway, since the only digital outs I have on my Receiver are both on my "DVD/LP" channel (one optical, and one coaxial) and thus, im forced to turn the DVD player off when i'm running the satellite (as to not send 2 sound fields into the same channel) and vise versa. Guess i'm too cheap to just buy a new receiver to get the satellite and DVD on their own channel, but if i end up running the satellite HD receiver on a plain audio L/R, then i'll just put it back in the "TV" channel on my receiver.

Azanon
post #172 of 12505
I just confirmed that MNF last night on abc, and some of the CBS shows that I watched WERE produced in DD 5.1. They simply weren't transmitted by our local stations in DD 5.1 OTA. Seems our local stations still have a ways to go with only 2 outputting HDTV video, and none thusfar outputting HDTV audio (aka, ac-3/DD5.1).

Azanon
post #173 of 12505
Thread Starter 
I would contact the stations and ask them if they have DD 5.1 capability. They may not, OR they may be incorrectly flagging the audio, causing your A/V receiver to default to 2 channel stereo.
KTHV-DT 501 376-1111 (ask for Allison or engineers)
KATV-DT 501 324-7790 (Master Control number)


Does your A/V receiver have DPL II ? If so, I would use that, at least until the stations get their act together. DPL II is supposed to sound remarkably close to DD.

____________________________________

Email the GM at KARK-DT and tell him you want NBC in HD.
pchester@kark.com
post #174 of 12505
Speaking of MNF.

Maybe I was a little tired last night but the picture quality was not very consistent. There were some major differences in quality of the various cameras used and some of the on screen graphics looked blurry.

Just me or did any one else notice this?
post #175 of 12505
The image on MNF last night was pretty clear for me, except i'd see occasional pixelation, say, on someone's arm, but then it'd go away. The sound would also make a quick hiss sound on occasion. There is considerable discussiong going on about MNF last night in "HDTV Programming" including the sound problem I seem to be happening. The concensus so far is that it is issues at the local TV stations.

I will say the image was not of the quality of ESPN's HD football game just shown a few days ago, and supposedly both abc and espn are outputting 720p, suggesting that abc could use some improvement.

Arxaw, i'm going to first try the audio left/right tonight and see if i can at least get dolby pro-logic. If i cant, and you have confirmed that you can, then that would suggest that maybe something's wrong on my end.
Then again, it would probably be easier for me to break a steel ball than to mess up connecting one optical audio cable to a stereo and/or a red/white rca cable .

Azanon
post #176 of 12505
azanon,

Thanks for the heads up on the MNF thread. Some others are speculating that ABC may have used some 480p cameras in the wide overhead shots. That's where I saw the difference in PQ. The closeups looked great though.

I have 130" image projected from my NEC 10pg crt projector so small defects are greatly magnified.

hpb
post #177 of 12505
You guys in LR are not the only ones with sound problems. I get my DTV from Memphis. Can't get ABC most of the time so I can't comment on them, but CBS and NBC only send DD 2.0 sound. I can usually get two other DTV stations that are not HD. Ones digital sound is center channel only, and the other stations is right channel only. So I use the analog connection to my receiver also, and just use pro-logic. Much better sound than any of those other options.
post #178 of 12505
Thread Starter 
WRT to MNF on KATV-DT looking somewhat less-than-HD:

Part of the problem may be due to KATV's insistence on simulcasting in SD on 7-2 all the time. Subchannel 7-2 serves no purpose during a 16:9 HD broadcast, but it does take bandwidth away from the HD channel. This may explain some of the loss of resolution.

I doubt that they will stop using subchannels. I hear they have plans to air a 24/7 news loop on 7-2, as soon as they figure out how to do it (that may take a while...).
____________________________________

Email the GM at KARK-DT and tell him you want NBC in HD.
pchester@kark.com
post #179 of 12505
Well i found a temporary fix for my sound problem. The sound sorce for abc, and i believe cbs for the HD programs is usually DD 5.1, but we're just not getting transmitted that here locally. Since the "flag" for the sound is dd 5.1, but end users arn't receiving 5.1, my receiver gets confused and just reverts to DD 2.0, and outputs it exactly like that, IF i have it set to "a.f.d." which is a mode that attempts to simply identify the sound type.

My work around for now is to just use one of sony's "digital cinema surround" fields which default to a Front left, center, right, rear dual or single channel, and then the sound is output in a modified pro-logic form for cbs and abc.
post #180 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Sony's "Digital Cinema Surround" is probably the same as or very similar to DPLII, which usually sounds very good.

___________________________________

Email the GM at KARK-DT and tell him you want NBC in HD.
pchester@kark.com
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