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Little Rock, AR - HDTV - Page 239

post #7141 of 12505
I doubt that Hossein Hashemzadeh (KTWN Supervisory Engineer as of 2007) frequents this forum.

dmatch
post #7142 of 12505
Well...darn. Guess he will figure it out sooner or later. At least he has INN back. All the Directv news channels quit carrying news...now they are all the Obama channels...pro or con, thats all they ever have on. I found out about the gas refinery explosion in Texas on a CB radio... CNN was to worried if Hillary was going to be in Obama's cabinet to report it.
post #7143 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenf View Post

OK - who has dish HD and can you take a look at KATV? Rumor has it that they started taking our direct feed as of this morning.

A

Most likely no one on the forum who has DishHD will see KATV in HD yet. Dish is only transmitting it on their 77W satellite (one of three in their new "Eastern Arc"). Until Dish adds it to their "Western Arc" (110/119/129W), the only people likely to receive KATVHD through Dish are new HD customers and those who install (or have installed) a second dish pointing at the 77W bird.
post #7144 of 12505
KATV is looking as good on Directv as it is on Raycoms big dish HD sat feed. Way to go Allen.
post #7145 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenf View Post

OK - who has dish HD and can you take a look at KATV? Rumor has it that they started taking our direct feed as of this morning.

A


I just had a single Dish installed to point at 77W to get KATV and KTHV over Dish in HD. Crystal clear picture.

You won't see many folks with Dish locals in HD for the LR DMA. I'm probably just about the first person in the state to get a dish pointed at 77w since they aren't even installing eastern arc here as of yet.
post #7146 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpITGuy View Post

I just had a single Dish installed to point at 77W to get KATV and KTHV over Dish in HD. Crystal clear picture.

You won't see many folks with Dish locals in HD for the LR DMA. I'm probably just about the first person in the state to get a dish pointed at 77w since they aren't even installing eastern arc here as of yet.

Wow. Dish needs a 77w to 119w line of site now? That should make either tree trimmers or Directv awfully happy.
post #7147 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpITGuy View Post

I just had a single Dish installed to point at 77W to get KATV and KTHV over Dish in HD. Crystal clear picture.

You won't see many folks with Dish locals in HD for the LR DMA. I'm probably just about the first person in the state to get a dish pointed at 77w since they aren't even installing eastern arc here as of yet.

Thanks for the report!

The feeds that both Direct & Dish use are both from the same distribution amp at the Clear Channel building near their racks- One output goes to Direct's gear another output goes to Dish's gear. Both equipment racks sit right next to each other. This will help trouble shoot any issues that we or either carrier has especially here in the first week of carriage as things are getting trimmed out on both our end and theirs. We have installed a DirecTV HD receiver at the studio to monitor and will be doing the same for Dish monitoring in the near future.

A
post #7148 of 12505
Good deal. Thanks for working so hard to keep the customer happy.
post #7149 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpITGuy View Post

I just had a single Dish installed to point at 77W to get KATV and KTHV over Dish in HD. Crystal clear picture.

You won't see many folks with Dish locals in HD for the LR DMA. I'm probably just about the first person in the state to get a dish pointed at 77w since they aren't even installing eastern arc here as of yet.

How much did it cost ya? Did you already have MPEG4 equipment?

As a rule, dish isn't installing the 2nd 77w dish for any existing subs until sometime next year, probably feb.
post #7150 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpITGuy View Post

I just had a single Dish installed to point at 77W to get KATV and KTHV over Dish in HD. Crystal clear picture.

Someone just HAD to go and prove me wrong!

Glad to hear the report. I have a couple of spare dishes and a twin lnb that might still work, just need to get the time to install one of them.

How long it takes for Eastern Arc installs to start happening around here depends on long it takes for the equipment to arrive at the dealers. I wouldn't be surprised if Southern Star is the first to get them.
post #7151 of 12505
Would an old one sat dish and lnb from DirecTV work if someone pointed at the right spot? I seem to remember someone saying one time that they were on the same freq and the only difference was the software in the box. I ask cause I am not sure if my dad has an old Dish dish laying around. Either way, how would one combine the two lines to go into one box? I am thinking I might wanna go over there and help him get up and going with this.
post #7152 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenf View Post

Thanks for the report!

The feeds that both Direct & Dish use are both from the same distribution amp at the Clear Channel building near their racks- One output goes to Direct's gear another output goes to Dish's gear. Both equipment racks sit right next to each other. This will help trouble shoot any issues that we or either carrier has especially here in the first week of carriage as things are getting trimmed out on both our end and theirs. We have installed a DirecTV HD receiver at the studio to monitor and will be doing the same for Dish monitoring in the near future.

A

The KATV Raycom and ABC games looked good today on DirecTV. No macroblocking whatsoever. It was so good on DirecTV and I was so pleased that I completely forgot to compare it to OTA. Thanks again!!!
post #7153 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

How much did it cost ya? Did you already have MPEG4 equipment?

As a rule, dish isn't installing the 2nd 77w dish for any existing subs until sometime next year, probably feb.

Didn't cost me a thing -- just had to re-up my contract period. I just called and said, "hey, my locals are up in HD but I don't get them... I need 77w." After 30 minutes on hold (grrr) they had Southern Star setup to come do the install.

I did already have a VIP 722, so receiver equipment was no problem.

BTW, the Southern Star installer said their Dish installers in Texas have started installing 1000.4 for EA... but not in Arkansas as of yet.
post #7154 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpITGuy View Post

...I did already have a VIP 722, so receiver equipment was no problem.

If you hadn't have already had MPEG4 equipt., they wouldn't have upgraded you.
post #7155 of 12505
PARDON THE OFF TOPIC: Does anyone use XM or Sirius (now combined) in their car out on the woods? Want to get one, but only if it wont drop out when I drive through the woods in Southern Ar or the Ozarks. Any reason to get a XM over a sirius branded receiver?

PM replies ok. Thanks.
post #7156 of 12505
I checked KATV out on Directv during the OU vs TT game. It looked pretty good but not as good as 40.1 KHBS out of Fort Smith via Antenna where I watched most of the game. Definitely a noticeable difference between KATV Directv and KHBS out of FS which was better.
post #7157 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveken View Post

Would an old one sat dish and lnb from DirecTV work if someone pointed at the right spot? I seem to remember someone saying one time that they were on the same freq and the only difference was the software in the box.

The DirecTV dish itself would work, but I'm not sure about the DirecTV LNB. The dish is just a reflector, so as long as it's in good shape it will work. The LNB MIGHT work if it's an older one for Ku band.

Quote:


I ask cause I am not sure if my dad has an old Dish dish laying around. Either way, how would one combine the two lines to go into one box? I am thinking I might wanna go over there and help him get up and going with this.

How to combine the lines depends on the equipment that's installed right now. Dish's current multi-lnb units, DishPro Plus Twin and the 3-LNB units, have an signal input jack to allow one additional dish. The older LNB units don't have this jack, so external signal switches must be used. Don't merely splice the lines together or use a standard OTA "splitter"...neither will work for the satellite signals.

The dbstalk.com and satelliteguys.us sites should both have info on adding your own dish and what works with what service.
post #7158 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkyman View Post

I checked KATV out on Directv during the OU vs TT game. It looked pretty good but not as good as 40.1 KHBS out of Fort Smith via Antenna where I watched most of the game. Definitely a noticeable difference between KATV Directv and KHBS out of FS which was better.

Could you be more specific? What was better, the sharpness, better color, ???
Is KHBS running 1080i or 720p?

Reason I ask is I compared KATV on Directv with the actual backhaul feed from ESPN, and other than the low res local commercial inserts, I didnt see much difference. KATV does seem to have the contrast a little low and brighness a little higher than other stations, but its always been that way...Didnt affect the network HD feed for me though, as it appears that equipment is bypassed.
post #7159 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenlr View Post

Could you be more specific? What was better, the sharpness, better color, ???
Is KHBS running 1080i or 720p?

Reason I ask is I compared KATV on Directv with the actual backhaul feed from ESPN, and other than the low res local commercial inserts, I didnt see much difference. KATV does seem to have the contrast a little low and brighness a little higher than other stations, but its always been that way...Didnt affect the network HD feed for me though, as it appears that equipment is bypassed.

I think KHBS runs 720p. The PQ on KATV looked Dull compared to to the KHBS OTA feed. KHBS had the nice shiny or glossy look with sharpness and crispness. Directv KATV feed looked darked down and dull compared to KHBS via OTA. Reminded me of when I turn my tv's Noise Reduction to "on"...... it takes the nice crisp image and distorts fine detail in the PQ and makes the PQ much softer which I personally cannot stand, I hate soft PQ it looks un-natural to me, the brightness of the channel also looked reduced or darkened. KATV reminded me more of a Good UPconversion than it did True HD. I still notice all of my OTA channels look a little sharper than the Directvs equivilants like KARK, THV, KLRT. However, some channels like HDNET and HD Theater usually looks just as good as my OTA HD's. BTW, this was all thru the H20, I have the FS antenna run into the H20's ATSC tuner, so I watch 40.1 thru the H20. Also, KFSM CBS 5.1 OTA is clearer and sharper than THV 11 provided by Directv. Not a huge difference in these two, but its there. I get all my FS stations via OTA, I do not get any of them thru Directv, I am designated to the LR market according to Directv HD locals.
post #7160 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkyman View Post

I think KHBS runs 720p. The PQ on KATV looked Dull compared to to the KHBS OTA feed. KHBS had the nice shiny or glossy look with sharpness and crispness.

KHBS/KHOG are 720p.

I have noticed the same thing on KATV-DT. The picture is soft, as if they were using a "Katie Couric" soft filter. Don't get me wrong, KATV on D* looks a helluvalot better than it did, and I'm glad they got it fixed. But it just doesn't have the "wow" sharpness as abc KHOG-DT 29-1 OTA does (same as KHBS-DT 40-1). And the difference is even greater when compared to abc OTA KSPR-DT 33-1 in Springfield (perhaps because they don't run any sub channels yet). KSPR-DT still has that "looking through a window" sharpness of HDTV.

There is enough difference that I will still watch & record ABC-HD programs on KSPR-DT, even though the MPEG2 recordings take up a lot more DVR hard drive space than KATV-DT in MPEG4.
post #7161 of 12505
I really think you guys are being a little overly picky on this stuff. You really have to look extremely hard to notice most of what you are talking about. EDIT: Well, except for the softness part that arxaw was talking about. That really is annoying.

I think you are expecting too much from such broad consumer based satellite stuff and need to keep in mind that DirecTV's re-broadcast channels are never going to be as good as OTA. If you were like Dave and getting it straight from the source distribution point, then that would be different. DirecTV just can not give the same quality on the individual channels as OTA broadcasts do because of the bandwidth constraints.

I really question if there is really enough of a difference to even matter between the two sources. If you want the "looking through a window" quality, look through a window. Just kidding.

In any case, the whole point to DirecTV getting the channels up on their satellites was not to get the absolute best quality picture ever (which they really could do if they had a couple more satellites up there to devote max bandwidth to every channel carried), but was more for the average consumer who just can't get such a complex antenna system up which is required in a lot of areas of the state or for those who don't know how to do it in the first place.

I don't think its really all that fair to try to compare the two apples to apples. It's always going to be a win for OTA because of the amount of other crap DirecTV crams onto their satellites.
post #7162 of 12505
What flavor of MPEG4 does DirecTV use? This could have an effect on sharpness of picture as compared to higher bit rate ATSC MPEG 2.

AVC (H.264 - MPEG4 Part 10), from what I have seen, can achieve significantly lower bit rates with as good a quality as a higher bit rate MPEG2. However, if pushed too low (say to about 1/2 bit rate) I have noticed that the picture, although still in the good quality range, can tend to get softer and loose that zing that is being described. If bit rates are pushed still lower the picture falls into the not-so-good range and I start to notice that banding appears in smooth gradients and a loss of detail in peoples faces and other low contrast areas of the picture.

What bit rates are used in DirecTV's HD satellite transmissions?

dmatch
post #7163 of 12505
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmatch View Post

What bit rates are used in DirecTV's HD satellite transmissions?

Not sure,
but it takes up about 1/3 less hard drive space when DVR-ing from D* on MPEG4, vs MPEG2 OTA.
post #7164 of 12505
What is "Newport Television"? I just saw an ad on 16 talking about job opeinings with CW and FOX 16 and it was acting like it wasn't "Clear Channel" that owned them, but "Newport Television".
post #7165 of 12505
I dont have the software to compare, nor any way to access the Directv file. I can tell you the ABC source feed for sports is 720p with a symbol rate of 29270 which is twice what Speed uses (14000). PBS at 1080i uses 30000. Im thinking you halve the SR to get the bitrate, so KATV is sending the full bitrate of the feed to Directv...I dont know what they do with it. I do know Directv statmuxes its mpeg4, and appears to be running in the mode allowing for max bitrate...Dish is running more channels per transponder in comparison. CBS feed to KTHV is SR of 32000 at 1080i for comparison.

I dont know it its settings on KATVs muxer to Directv/Dish/Comcast/Equity thats making it look soft to you guys or what. Looked pretty close to the original feed to me.

Allen has a Directv HD setup now, so Im sure he will tweak up anything he sees wrong thats in his part of the chain.
post #7166 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

Not sure,
but it takes up about 1/3 less hard drive space when DVR-ing from D* on MPEG4, vs MPEG2 OTA.

Do you mean 1/3 of the space, instead of 1/3 less? 1/3 less would be 33% smaller. 1/3 of the space would be 66% smaller.

The reason I ask is I find when I re-encode using MPEG 4 (H.264) from MPEG 2 the files usually take up about 1/2 to 1/3 the space (50-66% savings) and look just as good.

dmatch
post #7167 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenlr View Post

I can tell you the ABC source feed for sports is 720p with a symbol rate of 29270 which is twice what Speed uses (14000). PBS at 1080i uses 30000. Im thinking you halve the SR to get the bitrate, so KATV is sending the full bitrate of the feed to Directv...

Those satellite feeds are QPSK, you double the SR (Symbol Rate) to get the bit rate for the entire transmission. Each symbol carries 2 bits data.

The newer 8PSK transmissions delivery 3 bits of data for each symbol as does 8VSB (ATSC).

So, very ROUGHLY,

if ABC uses an FEC 3/4 (1/4 of data for error correction) that would be 29270*3/4*2 ~= 44000 Kb/s from the QPSK transmission and...

ATSC 6 mHz FEC 2/3 -> ~11000 SR *2/3*3 ~= 22000 Kb/s from 8VSB transmission

I think the actual rate accounting for overhead is about 19000 Kb/s for ATSC. Anyway, a typical full bandwidth ATSC signal is going to net about 1/2 the bit-rate of a QPSK network satellite feed.

dmatch
post #7168 of 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveken View Post

What is "Newport Television"? I just saw an ad on 16 talking about job opeinings with CW and FOX 16 and it was acting like it wasn't "Clear Channel" that owned them, but "Newport Television".

Clear Channel sold off their TV stations, and Newport bought most of them. Not many changes with the sale of those stations.
post #7169 of 12505
First guys, I'd like to say this. KATV is much much better than it has been, I'm happy with it. I think the way I worded my comparison made is sound as if KATV just did not look good but I was trying to get technical about differences I was seeing in PQ. Overall, the upgrade to KATV looks great, its just isnt quite as good as the OTA feed I have from KHBS. I will do some more comparison with primetime programming and shows. Last night was the football game and live events seem to make things stand out even more so than regular programs, at least I've noticed that. I think arxaw and I having access to both the KATV and KHBS OTA feeds has allowed us to share a similar view in comparing these two feeds. So, if I mis led anyone into thinking KATV was not better I apologize. That was not my intent in the post comparing the two. I'll bet when KATV starts sending out their digital OTA signal again, there wont be any difference in the PQ of KATV and KHBS via Antenna
post #7170 of 12505
Wow, thanks for the SR/FEC computations. Have to store those somewhere. Som given the comparion of QPSK full to ATSC half of QPSK, if the PQ looks the same, then there is a lot of breathing room on the Sat feeds...except for Speed, which would be about "just enough"
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