Has anyone seen the Lumagen Vision or Vision Pro? - Page 2  

Okay,

Patrick has been rather stellar with feedback and mods so far.

So, who's gonna bite the bullet and try one out? Come on, this is a prime opportunity to try out a scaler based on the Sil504, an excellent film mode deinterlacer (better than Faroudja, IMHO).

The Vigatec Dune is another highly acclaimed scaler built on the Sil504 (IIRC - please correct me if I'm wrong). These Lumagen units are much more reasonably priced...

Tempt, tempt...

Oh, BTW - patrick - add an SDI input to these things, and I'll buy one right away.

-Jon

Jon, wish we could get one onto the Vision. We're definately planning on it for future products and if we have enough interest from VisionPro users we'll do factory mods.
Although we don't have SDI on the Vision our TV deocoder has 10 bit A to D's which gives us very clean analog inputs.

I have a few questions for Patrick which I thought I would put here so all readers (who have seen the manual) could benefit.

Question 1. Would this be the correct description of how the screen aspect ratio control (installation command) and the input aspect ratio control (user command) interact?
"The screen aspect ratio setting should match the actual raster shape upon the screen and then the input aspect ratio selections will produce the 'correct' aspect ratio picture as:
(a) if the screen aspect ratio is 16:9 then input aspect ratio 16:9 fills the raster and input aspect ratio 4:3 yields a picture with unused side bars,
(b) if the screen aspect ratio is 4:3 then input aspect ratio 16:9 yields a picture with unused top and bottom bars and input aspect ratio 4:3 fills the raster.
(c) if the screen aspect ratio is 2.35:1 then all input aspect ratios yield pictures with varying amounts of unused side bars and zoom is needed to fill the raster."

Question 2. If I were to use the Output Size (installation command) would the scaler change to a different scaling of the incoming scan lines to occupy the percentage of scan lines chosen to contain active video as opposed to crop material off the top and bottom of the picture?

Question 3. If I were to use the Output Size control, would Graybar Intensity cover all the unused scan lines and scan line portions excluded from the active scan line utilization? (Not the black bar area pre-recorded on the disk for regular letterbox movies and anamorphic movies > 1.78:1)

Question 4. If I put the Video/Film bias in Video mode, does that disable the 3-2 pulldown sensing and preservation and make the de-interlacer rely solely on motion adaptiveness? (I thought that top notch de-interlacers like the Sil series neither have nor need such controls.)

Question 5. If I make an installation command change, does it happen instantly so I can see what it looks like and change it back if I don't like it (or if things get messed up badly) prior to saving?

Question 6. Does the Vision scaler employ vertical filtering and, if so, is there a control to vary the amount or turn it off?

Question 7. Is the Output Size control meant for and have a range great enough for the following: If I had an XGA 1024 x 768 4:3 projector by choosing Output Size vertical = 75% I get scaling of the 480p video onto 576 rows of pixels (scan lines) and I get a perfect 16:9 uncropped picture?

Thanks.

(I had some difficulty viewing the user manual for the Vision on line, does it require a certain or higher edition of Acrobat reader (Mine is 3.0)? Got an error like CS6 not available. Bottom half of some of the pages was missing, diagram objects such as back panel or remote were solid black blocks instead of showing graphic details.)

Ken, its too early at this point to price/talk about an SDI mod to the VisionPro.

Allan,
1) Correct.

2) Yes. The one exception is that our minimum scaling factor in the vertical direction is 1.0 (i.e. we only scale up). So, for example, if you are running at 480p, reducing the vertical size to 460 lines would crop the 20 lines. However, if you were output 540p and reduced the vertical size by 20, the output would be scaled to fit.

3) No, the output->size command changes the active scanlines so the unused lines would be in the vertical blanking interval.

4) No, 3:2 pull-down is still active. I don’t think other deinterlacers expose this Silicon Image feature and always are in “video†mode. The only difference is that the algorithm goes out of pull-down sooner in video mode than it does in film mode. There are a few cases where the Silicon Image would stay in film pull-down if set to film mode, rather than dropping to video mode.

5) Prior to saving, all changes can be discarded by going to standby mode. This is in addition to the one level save-undo feature. Changes take effect immediately, but some can be canceled by pressing the “exit†key. For example, when adjusting contrast, you get to see the effect, but if you want to revert to the last value you can press “exit.â€

6) We do horizontal and vertical filtering to enhance the image. This filtering is always on.

7) It doesn’t work that way. If you tell the box the screen is 4:3, you can use the output size control to adjust the image so that it fits a 4:3 screen (although it is better to use the projectors size control for this). We would then output 16:9 inputs with “letter-box†bars above and below.

--the manual is a 4.0 version of pdf---you can update your reader for free.

--Patrick

I came back from a 3 weeks trip and tucked in my suitcase was my very own Lumagen Vision.

Last night, for the first time, I finally got to play with it on my Hitachi CP-SX5500

Dealing with Lumagen was great, they did do everything they could so I could get my processor before I left the US... and I did.

So far I only used the component output for a few hours and I have not yet recalibrated my PJ. But anyway, here are my first impressions.

The processor is small and well packaged... There does not seem to be any risk of it being damage during transport.

The processor itself is very simple in appearance. A simple LED lights up whenever a command is received from the remote.

The metal sheet that is used for the bottom and back panel of my unit is not "clean". By this I mean there are some black spots (burns?) around some of the ventilation holes at the bottom. The back is not flat and seems to have been "forced in place". It could be that my unit was "rushed through" so I could get it in time...

I definitely need to re-read the manual and recalibrate my PJ...

I could not yet use 720P (component) on my PJ...480p,540p and 1080i worked fine. I was under the impression that my Hitachi 5500 could handled 720P... Could someone confirm/infirm this?

Deinterlacing worked very well (best I have seen on my PJ) and zooming of non-anamorphic LB worked wonderfully well.

The software is a little rough... I noticed a number of times where I had to push on the YPbPr button after changing resolution before I could see something. Sometimes, when zooming, I had to turn off/turn on the unit before I would get the picture back.

It is no easy to figure out which mode you are in.. It is easy to figure out the input you use (Names are configurable) and the output mode (4:3,LB and zoom or 16:9) ... But I have not yet figured out how to know which output resolution I use and other info.

The image from my satellite receiver is cropped...quite a bit... It is a PAL image using the S-Video input... The level of cropping seems to vary with the channel with HBO, NGC and ESPN (NTSC sources?) being less cropped than BBC or TV5 (PAL sources?).

PAL DVD's do not seem to suffer from that problem...

The unit runs pretty cool.

As you could read, I still have a lot to learn about the unit... I just wanted to let you know what my first impressions were...Even if some of them may change as I get to know the processor better.

Cheers,
Francois

Can the VisionPro scale 1080i/50 to 1080i/60?

PAGZ- the Pro can output 1080i at 50 or 60hz if that's what you're asking. The Pro does not scale HD inputs and can only pass them thru (it can modify sync levels if necessary).

Francois-
- The up & down arrows are overloaded. If you press an output type button (YPRPB,RGBHV,RGBS,RGsB) then they will change sync levels when pressed (see manual for more detail). After selecting the output type press something else like "MENU" then "EXIT" before pressing the up & down arrow to zoom. Of course the arrows are also used to navigate the menus after pressing "MENU".
- To see what mode you're in (480p,540p,etc.) press the "vres" button (bottom left). Then press "exit" if you don't want to change it.
- Cropping does not change based on source material. The reason you're seeing different croppings is that the Vision is cropping very little (by default) and there is often quite a bit of variation between different channels. I would suggest you adjust your input cropping to the worst case source you'll be watching (MENU->IN->ADJ->SIZE->TOPL and BTMR)
- Not sure what the Hitachi 5500 supports, but we easily do 720p (up to 1080p). You can try something a little over 540p say 560p (use the "vres" button to enter it) and see how close you can get to 720p before it stops working.

Also, we have Pronto remote files up on our site now for download.

Let us know if you need any more assistance...email at support@lumagen.com

cheers,
Patrick Harkin

patrick harkin,

What do you mean by changing the sync level? I'm sorry for asking but I'm kinda new to all this. I guess what I wanted to ask is, can the VisionPro change the 50hz to 60hz on a 1080i signal?
Either way I'm very interested on this product. I'm looking to buy a scaler, and as of right now I'm deciding between the CS "family" and the Lumagen "family".

PAGZ: From the instructions I take it that the Lumagen doubles incoming 480i and can then make its own 1080i 50 Hz or 1080i 60 Hz from that, but it won't scale incoming existing 1080i from 50 Hz to 60 Hz or vice versa.

(extremely oversimplified description)

PAGZ- Sorry, the Pro cannot change 50hz 1080i to 60hz. 1080i video cannot be processed, just the syncs. Changing sync levels can solve problems when you have a projector that takes negative polarity syncs and you're output device can do only positive syncs for example. Actually processing HD video makes for a much more expensive scaler.

Allan- The Vision & VisionPro are doing a lot more than doubling 480i (or PAL). The video is deinterlaced (using a silicon image chip), then processed and bilinearly scaled (using a Lumagen proprietary scaler) to create anything from 480p to 1080p (or 1080i) in scanline increments. The resulting video data is then output at 48-75 hz.

Patrick,

I do not think that is the problem I had... The picture really does not come back... Yesterday, I saw a new twist on the same problem... The image would be split in two, the bottom of the image at the top of the screen and the top of the image at the bottom of the screen with some broken blue lines in-between.. I just need to push on a resolution button to get the image back.

I also have noticed that the same thing can happen when you feed the Vision a 480P signal,

Found that out last night...

I have tried a number of settings but still get some serious cropping.. I switch my video signal through my Onkyo receiver and I can compare my PJ to direct view Wega TV... The difference is, at this time, substantial. The TOPL/BTMR setting does not seem to help since the image I am trying to fit to the TOPL/BTMR is clearly cropped.

You are right, the cropping does not change with the source.. What I saw before was probably something different...I seems to me that if I use the Up/Down arrows to zoom, the first zooming step can not be reversed (although it is indicated as reversed)... I have to change AR or Input to get it back.

Is there a way to figure what software rev one has?

Cool...Got it!

No real need at this time... I am learning the box and learning SMART at the same time... I am bound to make some mistakes ;-)

Cheers,
François

More questions for Patrick:

Are there stores (for me, in the Boston Mass. area) with the Lumagen video processors on display where they can be auditioned?

Does the Lumagen Vision have, and Lumagen plan to offer, at home firmware upgrade capability? If for the sake of argument we call the current model v1.0, I don't mean a free upgrade next year to v2.0 but rather if a significant bug is found or minor enhancement offered soon, perhaps an upgrade from v1.0 to v1.1. (DVDO gave me one such upgrade in the form of a do it yourself swap-a-chip when I bought their iScan Plus v1.)

Francois- you can enter "MENU",0,9,0,3 and the sw rev will be displayed as the date it was built.

Allan- We are working on getting dealers set up, so it may be a little while before we have one in your area. As far as sw upgrades go, it's difficult to do in the field for the Vision. We've been running them for a couple of months now and aren't expecting any significant bugs but if there were we'd do the upgrades here in Portland and/or at dealers.

patrick any news on the credit card ordering front yet?

Paul, we just got approved today. Should have it set up by sometime tomorrow.

papaek- yes, should be up in half an hour or so.

update...its now up. The manual is on the VisionPro page at: http://www.lumagen.com/visionpro_specs.htm

Hi,

I figured out that a number of problems I had encountered with the Vision... Were not problems with the Vision.... But rather a setup problem.

720P works fine... The Vision can use trilevel (default) and bilevel embedded sync ... It seems my Hitachi 5500 much prefers bilevel sync.

The problem with split screens (bottom of image at top of the screen and vice-versa) also seems to have its origin in the use of trilevel sync.

My problem with cropping of SVideo source is still there.. I was looking at a football match (the real thing, not the American ersatz ;-) and I could only see the unreadable very bottom of the score/time indication at the top right of my screen. I shall do more research on this....

Cheers,
François

frawau,

You wouldn't happen to have any test patterns (i.e. from Avia or VE or such) which you could run through there, do you? I'm interrested in hearing about any resolution issues, softness, etc... Many of us know about the performance of the Sil504, but at least I (and probably many others) are interrested in the stuff supporting the Sil504.

-Jon

Jon: I, too, have some concern about resolution and sharpness issues. In a reply higher up on this thread, I mentioned something about vertical filtering which Patrick confirmed that the Lumagen units do use. I could go on discussing for hours the theoretical consequences but I will just keep it concise and oversimplified for now. I realize that single scan line details of will be lost some of the time due to inherent limitations of video and vertical filtering is used (including in DVD mastering) to reduce flicker (interlace flicker) resulting from this, and also reduce jaggies during scaling. However too aggressive a vertical filtering will cause such things as alternating dark and light scan lines blurring to solid gray, and the sideways wedges (vertical resolution tests) in the resolution test pattern blurring out around 240 lines all of the time.

Franc,ois: Would you have the time to try the Lumagen with a different display device, namely an ordinary computer monitor, hitting it with 480p, 600p and 768p (the VGA, SVGA and XGA resolutions)? THis would be to compare resolution and other performance.

I am trying to decide between a Lumagen Vision and an iScan Ultra, and if some reviews appear soon, that will help me make up my mind more quickly.

Jon,
Allan,

I have both the VE and Avia DVD, and I have used them.

At this time I am also trying to calibrate my PJ with SMART III. Hence I have been more interested in grayscale and color then in resolution.

Yet, I did notice that the highest resolution circle in the Avia resolution test .. is flat gray. Where does that happen? I do not know at this time, but I certainly plan to investigate. FYI, my source is a Pioneer 655A (Asian version of the 47A I think)...

I will hook the Vision to a computer monitor. I have a number of them (Hitachi 20", Dell 20", Sun 15" (actually Sony) and a 15" Samsung LCD) .. I will be using the Sun as it is not in use at this time. I'll do this this weekend.

While I am at it... any other tests you would like to know about? Would you like to see pictures (2.1 Mega pixel Fuji camera)?

Cheers,
François

François:

I am interested in the 200 TVL resolution test and the Y/C delay (chroma delay) test on AVIA. (The Video Essentials resolution tests, at least on my version of VE, don't go high enough). I mentioned CRT computer monitors as straight analog display devices that won't introduce additional horizontal pixel scaling that could produce moire patterns or softening.

I'm not sure how pictures would come out as sent over the internet, if your camera can do extreme closeups that could help.

If you need a test pattern to verify the quality of the cable going to the computer monitor, use http://members.aol.com/towncriE/montest.htm

If you think that video cable quality is a possible factor in loss of the 6.75 MHz circle detail, use HDTV grade cables for the projector if you can. Do you get the 6.75 MHz detail with the DVD player connected directly to the projector or to another TV?

Allan

Alan,

The link you quoted above does not work... In any case, I cannot remove the cable from the Sun CRT monitor....

As for my cables, they are made to order using some Japanese cables and Monster connectors..But I do plan to check if they are the problem or not. (No idea at this point)

Cheers,
François

Hi,

I did resolution test during my lunch hour....

So here it is..

Avia 200TVL
- - - - - -
Pioneer -> 6.75 MHz == flat gray
Matrix -> 6.75 MHz == pattern clearly visible

On both the Monitor and the PJ. I did checked at various resolution... 480p,600p,720p,768p and 1080p (only 720p for PJ)

Conclusion... I should change ,my DVD player. The Vision does not seem to impede resolution (and my cable seems OK).

Note that for the Matrix DVD player, I had to use the S-Video input, as I could not defeat the p-scan output and the Vision won't accept 480p in input. (actually, with a 480p in input, I got a "double image",laterally..And I could see the 6.75 MHz pattern but I am not sure that this means anything..)

As for Y/C delay.. I will try to find that out later... I had a look at it, but I am not sure that I am interpreting that screen correctly.

Cheers,
François

François:

I fixed the link. I need to remember not to put a period at the end of a sentence ending in a URL.

The amount of Y/C delay you have corresponds to the color/gray pair that match best. If the test reveals Y/C delay, we can't draw conclusions until more tests are done to see how much delay is in the TV or the player.

Are you able to make a judgment on the resolution showing on the wedges lying on their sides (vertical resolution test)?

I wish I had one of these to review and tell folks about, except my eyes aren't good enough to see the combing in the action sequences in Stacy Spears' shootout.

Allan

I find it easier to tell by looking at the yellow and red stripe to
the right of the patches. Look to see if the red stripe is clean
and not bleeding into the yellow on the left or to the right .
If it is off and you look real close you will see it bleeding to one
side and a black area between the red stripe and yellow on
the other side.

Craig- the Vision & Pro have chroma phase adjustment to adjust for Y/C delay. The setting can be adjusted via the onscreen menu (IN->ADJ->CPHASE).

Patrick