The High-Gain/Exotic Screen Review - Page 3

Make sure that's blotter, and it was bought from a DeadHead, otherwise you are wasting your time. I guess we will see you in about 3 days or so.

Great Review, a valuable reference tool.

Mark

""Science"... is merely the depth of expression of the origins of 'human' fear... attempting to place a controllable, knowable, comfortable face upon the aspects of existence that bring discomfort to this semi-intelligent beast that is trapped between the boundaries that define this moment of temporal understanding."

Is not science really the culmination of human curiosity and experimentation rather than fear? Theory has in fact brought great discomfort and disorder, consider the Heliocentric revolution began by Copernicus, Relativity is most discomforting as is the cosmological "Big Bang", evolution by random mutations of the DNA sequence. Religion is comforting, science is disturbing but that does not make science false.

I just had to slip this in.

Mark

Scientific models are not truth, they are merely convenient and useful approximations of reality. These models work in a man-made deterministic environment (Mathematics), which is controllable and predictable. The real world isn't deterministic so these models aren't ever perfect approximations (Newtonian physics). The purpose of the scientific method is to make sure these models are "good enough" approximations.

Mike U.

That's too funny, Tryg

I set up an Aurora pull up portable screen a friend gave me. It was his Dad's, a 1950's/ 60's glass bead looking screen for the first 8mm? home movies. I set it up in front of a Parkland screen and got a surprise! Wow, not everything's equal. Guess it was an example of a high power, was much brighter. Black and color level, apparent contrast were down, it had a cone to it's gain as opposed to the wide view parkland, but it certainly got my curiosity up about screen materials/coatings.

I have both a matte white (damat) and a highpower screen, and the highpower blows the matte white away, no contest. I've seen the highpower sample swatch, and I should point out that unless you see a full screen with a table mounted projector, you will not get anywhere close to seeing this material's potential. Blacks look terrible on the sample swatch, while they look fantastic on the fullscreen, since your eye adjusts to the higher brightness level. You also don't get to see how uniform and free from hotspots a full screen is. Additionally, if you don't use a table mount you're throwing away half of the highpower's gain and more than half of the ambient light/cross reflection rejection characteristics. Hope you take this into account in your review.

Mike U.

why would ambient light rejection differ w/ a ceiling mounted pj??

Did you see the KBK stuff yet?

Since nobody answered this I will give it a try. To make it easy, lets assume that light from a table mounted pj near eye level with the Hi-Power gets 2.8 gain, but light from off axis (like ceiling mounted pj) get 1.0 gain. So, here are the gains

1. Projector
Table mount: Gets 2.8 gain
Ceiling mount: Get 1.0 gain
2. Ambient light from your viewing position
Gets 2.8 gain for both setups
3. Ambient light from off axis
Gets 1.0 gain for both setups

With table mount the projector light can overcome the ambient light better than the ceiling mounted projector will, no matter where the ambient light comes from. I didn't take any other issues, like turning the lamp down, using a neutral density filter, etc, though.

Hope this makes sense.

--Darin

How do you put the projector on a tabletop at eye level? Wouldn't it be sitting right in front of you then?

Come on Rogo, you get a projector with a clear plastic see thru case.

Tryg, I too have seen the High Power in action (I was at a dealer who had a portable roll-up version in a frame). The uniformity and brightness was amazing, BUT (and I think that you need to make this clear every time something is said about this product), due to its EXTREMELY narrow cone of viewing, its applications are extremely limited. Ceiling mount will negate all of the advantages, as will anything other than a long narrow room.

For those who are centrally located in the viewing environment and have a coffee table PJ, it is pretty nice. Although I can't think of many customers who are in that situation.

DM

True, I doubt many of the +5K setups are going to involve a table mount setup, but for even with a ceiling mount you aren't necessarily throwing all of the highpower's advantages away, especially in long throw situations. Many of the PLV70 owners like JimmyR use it with a ceiling mount configuration because it still gives them a modest 1.2-1.6 gain with no sparklies, good uniformity, and a little cross reflection rejection, not to mention its wrinkle-hiding abilities.

Of course there are tradeoffs due to the very narrow cone, but for some sub 3K'ers like me who are willing to make some sacrifices to get the best image for our money (in the sweet spot), they're reasonable sacrifices. For us it represents a way to get the best cross reflection rejection and thus best ansi contrast without spending firehawk money. Also, I haven't seen the firehawk but I doubt the viewing cone is *that* much better than the highpower since its optical gain is in the 1.8-2.0 range.

Mike U.

Tryg

Does the Vutec allow a projector to be ceiling mounted unlike the High Power? I quickly scanned through the earlier pages and could not find any information regarding this. I like the idea of having lumens to spare...

I'm not sure if this was a serious question, but I'll take it as if it is. For one thing, the projector can be next to you and still give close to the maximum gain. Also, it can be a foot or two off axis and still be close. So, for my case I can sit on my couch while the projector is on something next to the couch and down a little bit. As I said, I was trying to make it simple, so I didn't want to go into the whole curve (plus I don't know where to get the actual gain curve at the moment). However, I can see how that painted a funny picture.

Since we are approximating things here we tend to say that the Hi-Power works with table mount, but not to its best with ceiling mount. However, this is just a generalization, since there is no rule that a ceiling mounted projector can't be closer to the viewer's eye level than a table mounted projector. I actually think it might work best with shelf mounting with the projector just a little above eye level.

--Darin

It was a serious question. I am a projector-logistics newbie at best despite a long time at AVS (new to here).

I am very intrigued by using a high-gain screen at a relatively small diagonal and hoping to get tolerable viewing with ambient light.

So you're off-axis explanation is helpful.

That said, with, say, a Panasonic 300, it seems like the short throw would dictate that the projector be in front of the seating area (aka couch in my case). For that reason, I find it hard to imagine how in my space a shelf-mount would work (perhaps I ought to consider an HS10 and hope the noise is not an issue for me -- unlikely, tho). I could imagine a slightly offset table-mount position.

I am intrigued, especially, by the SilverStar and Tryg's comments about the surprisingly wide viewing cone w/gain still being preserved. I look forward to his "Part 2" review with whatever the "low cost" alternative is.

I will also doubtless have a mess more newbie questions on this topic. It is obvious, Darin, that you and others are a helpful lot here. I try to offer a similar service in the plasma forum -- my normal stomping ground.

Mark

rogo, have you considered the ae300's long-throw lens attachment? I think it increases throw distance for a given image size by 1.2X. It should also run about $350, so that's something to consider.

Mike U.

Mark,

BJM has an AE300 that he brought over Saturday night and we viewed it on my 116" wide Hi-Power. He has decided that he wants a big screen and after checking things out he decided that he wants the Hi-Power. He was going to hang the projector low from his ceiling and just at the back of his couch to get the good gain. I don't think most people would want to sit so close, but it is all about trade-offs. With the AE300 I think that most people would want it in front of them, based on the throw ratio. You may have seen the thread on the >$5k forum where he mentioned that he checked on the price and the fabric costs more than a pull-down of the same size.

I talked to a couple of Panasonic engineers from Japan at CEDIA last September. They didn't speak a ton of English, but we were able to talk about some stuff. They really wanted to know who in America buys projectors and how we set them up. They told me that 80% of projectors in Japan are used in the table mount position, which I assume is why the AE300 has the throw distance that it does.

In my living room I have two couches that are kind of at an angle to the screen, on either side of the room. When I had the AE300 (I bought one of the first ones after talking to those engineers about the SmoothScreen technology) I just put it on an endtable that I put between the couches and that worked pretty well with the Hi-Power.

If you could put a shelf with the HS10, you might be able to lower the lamp power because of the gain in the screen and then not have the lamp kick into high mode. The difference between the fan in low and high on that projector is pretty significant.

I personally think the choice between the HS10 and AE300 is a pretty tough one, although I think the HS10 is probably lower risk for those who can't see both (just because of scanlines and Fixed Pattern Noise that I've seen more on the AE300).

If you like plasmas I'm guessing that you would want to avoid projectors/setups that are pretty dim.

--Darin

Tryg, could you expand on your comparison of goo. I've read mention of a half-grey mixture which may or may not be a standard product(Ken?). Something like this may possibly be a good compromise for those undecided between a grey and a white screen. Or do you think this would still be too grey for your liking?

Mike, I'd like to point out a few things about this paragraph. 1st, the firehawk is 16$ per sq.ft, while the high power is still 13$/sq.ft. Not much savings really. I guess 100-150$ might make the difference but not for many.

Next, the firehawk I thought was 1.3 gain...correct me if I'm wrong. If so then it might not have as severe a limit on its cone. I say 'might' b/c I haven't seen a High Power, but I have seen the firehawk and its cone wasn't very limited, imo. Not so much that it should be a major concern in a typical layout anyway. I'd like to hear if the 1.3 gain is incorrect for the FH, b/c higher would be better for me. However, it is gray, so that might factor in for aiding blacks...or not...I sure as hell don't know! So frustrating...

My choices right now are between the firehawk, high power, and some goo setup. I too am waiting for Tryg's next shootout for additional info on these. I believe the prices are about equal and very likely the ambient light rejection is equal as well between the FH and HP, not so sure about the Goo. Cheaper for sure, but a PITA, and no ambient light rejection? Not sure....

to be fair, Stewart charges an arm and a leg for frames, so maybe comparing materials by the sq.ft. isn't a valid comparison for many. I have a frame I built so I'm looking at material only...

It actually is kind of strange, just because of how the markets work, but Da-Lite actually charges a negative amount for their Hi-Power frames. What I mean by that is that it is generally cheaper to get a pull-down Hi-Power screen than to buy the equivalent amount of fabric.

--Darin

As Darin pointed out, highpower + frame is generally much much cheaper than firehawk + frame. Your point about cost per sq foot being close is very valid for the DIY frame guys, though.

As for the gain, the Firehawk does have a 1.3 *overall*, but the screen itself it composed of two different surfaces with two different gains. The base is a matte gray material that I've heard has around a 0.5-0.6 gain. The top optical coating (angular reflective) would have a gain of around 1.8-2.0 if it were placed on a matte white base 1.0 gain base (I've heard). The overall gain is going to be a function of these two gains (and must necessarily lie between the two gains), though I'm not sure you can just multiply them together to get the overall gain; it may be much more complicated than that. But basically the overall gain is 1.3.

The optical gain will give you an idea of the hotspotting, viewing cone, and ambient light rejection qualities of the screen.

The overall 1.3 gain is what determines your black level; it will have the same theortical maximum black level as a 1.3 gain white screen. HOWEVER, in a room that isn't fully light controlled blacks will be better on the firehawk.

I haven't seen the firehawk, but most people can't easily see a 30% increase in brightness.

Mike U.

really? I didn't know that. It sounds like a huge difference to me. Is it the same as a 100w bulb vs. a 70w bulb?

As for the high power being so affordable in a pull down, WHY is that? Holy smokes, for ~$250 I'd buy a full size screen just to test out. It's the ~$700 firehawk or highpower material only prices that are keeping me at bay...

How hard is it to cannibalize a highpower pull down for its material??