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post #61 of 364
I was going to guess that. Actually, the T5s, T6s, and VT3s are all in the same league. The T6s are more powerful than the VT3s in the bass and slightly more refined, overall better. The T5s will sound better in a smaller or brighter room than VT-3s. The VT-3s will fill a bigger room more easily than T5s, especially at higher volumes. The VT-3s have a slightly wider soundstage, but I think the T5 soundstage is more natural ane realistic. The T5s are smoother, the VT3s have a little better upper bass, the T5s have better mid/low bass. The VT3s have the bipole option and slightly more rigid cabinetry. The T5s have a smoother, better tweeter and a more laidback upper midrange. That's not very decisive, but if you like brighter, more vibrant, big sound, the VT3s are better. If you like smoother, more refined, more "intimate" sound, the T5s are better. What's amazing is that the VT3s were $6300 and were Stereophile GTHT "Surround System of the Year" just two or three years ago and the T5s are $2500 and rival them, albeit with slightly different presentation. The T6s are good enough to be considered better by 80% or more of the people who listen to them whereas the numbers with VT3/T5 would be closer to 50/50.
post #62 of 364
John,

Moving the production overseas reduced alot of the costs -- hence the Evolution/SB series excellent pricing!

Based on your statement: "the T5s have a smoother, better tweeter and a more laidback upper midrange"...I would be wrong in my understanding that the VT3s had the same upper drivers as the T6s?

Also, the VT3s were "hand-made" by a small team in CA, with the individual drivers matched to ~ 0.3dB for the left and right pairs (other NHT models follow the normal production line approach with less rigid driver matching).
post #63 of 364
Hi Ricky.

That is true on the savings. It is huge. But, NHT is a value company and they will do whatever it takes to make a better product for less. Hence, China it is. Heck, a lot of the parts on speakers are already coming from there. The drivers come from Denmark, though.

The VT3/T6 has the same low mids. The upper mid is a 4" version of the 5" VT3 driver for a slightly more detailed and smoother upper mid. The T6 tweeter is all new.

I'm not sure about the hand-matching of the drivers. The 3.3s were done this way, though, I guess I'd expect that on the VT3s. However, they never mentioned it and I forgot to ask.
post #64 of 364
Thanks TonyGeno and John - for the input.
I'll have to look for an NHT dealer to add it on my list. But the Sonus Faber really hold a class on its own, don't you think?
post #65 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
... I notice that a lot of people like yourself don't like professional guys like me on the boards because we come across as more experienced and more helpful and you guys like being the big fish on the boards doling out advice...
I have heard countless "professional" guys like you, specially in video, all pitching their products, and I have to say that I always found them helpless.

Anyway I happen to have five 3.3s and I love them. I had them for eight years now, with absolutely no intention of replacing them. At least not for hometheater, which is what I am using them for. I have one at the center flat on a stand below my screen and a pair in the surround, all against the recommendation of the salesman who wanted me at the time to buy some small center ch. and surround sound speakers.

I have also a pair of N802s and CLSIIZs which I use for music. For music there is no comparing the N802s to the 3.3s. The 3.3s are great for rock, although not as great as the N802s, but that's it!
post #66 of 364
An intelligent consumer can learn a lot from any salesman. And also can see the difference between information and "pitch". If you had asked me, I would have said that using an AC2 as a center and 1.5s as rears gives you more "bang for buck" which is true. However, I would have also said that the IDEAL home theater system consists of 5 full-range speakers with a subwoofer (if needed). I have often pitched NHT for a "center channel subwoofer" as well as a more modular approach. They thought I was a bit touched. However, some of my wacky ideas helped as inspiration for the NHT Evolution series which allows you to use build a full-range center without putting a speaker on its side, as well as full-range rears with tower or modular configurations. One of my "dream" systems was composed of all 3.3s with dual 3.3s back to back as a "super center" complete with wide dispersion. I think you painted me with a broad "anti-salesman" approach, but you might find that I'm far more of an enthusiast like yourself than a salesperson. When I'm in my store, I may be more salesman, but here on the boards, I'm just like anyone else, except I happen to have a deep knowledge about NHT. According to them, we're the biggest seller of their Evolution series in the country. Which is hard to believe because it's just me. Out in the middle of nowhere.

Also, you might want to revisit NHT for music when the new digital active monitors come out. Although the new Evolution T6 is easily in the ballpark as the more expensive N802s (better in many ways, perhaps not in others), the digital speakers will almost certainly be one of the finest sounding speakers ever created regardless of price. The technology going into these is simply astounding, moreso given the price.
post #67 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by Ximori
Thanks TonyGeno and John - for the input.
I'll have to look for an NHT dealer to add it on my list. But the Sonus Faber really hold a class on its own, don't you think?
Absolutely. There is something compelling about speakers that look like exotic pieces of furniture. Most of the Italian speakers are this way, including Chario and one other speaker brand that escapes me. The only thing to be wary of is "why are they seductive?" which can partly be attributed to euphony and also "where is the money going in this speaker?" which, you have to admit, goes a lot into the beautiful look. As Tony did, you may find the NHT M6s sound even better to you even though they'll lose the beauty contest 99 out of 100 times. It's a shame that audio reviewers aren't blind and know and can see what they're reviewing. I think that would be a great idea for an audio magazine. "Sightless Sound" or something. You'd really get seriously objective and accurate reviews!
post #68 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
... However, some of my wacky ideas helped as inspiration for the NHT Evolution series which allows you to use build a full-range center without putting a speaker on its side, as well as full-range rears with tower or modular configurations...
I don't know where NHT is going but to me it does't sound as good as you are saying, and romancing us.

I see the Chinese made Evolution series as a step down from the now discontinued US made VT series, and the VT series itself as a step down from the audio series, also discontinued. Cheap home theater speakers, that's what NHT is building today.
post #69 of 364
John,

I currently have 2.9s l/r, ac-2 center, vs2.4s in the back and citation 7.3 dipoles on the side mated with nht sw2 subs crossovered with a icbm from outlaw running large sides from processor.. (I had vs2.4s,superones etc on the side but I have a small ht room and like the dipoles on the side..anyway a friend has been coaxing me towards selling the 2.9s (Yo, Ricky) and replacing them with 3.3s...

After reading your comments about the t5,t6 ect (which I know nothing about as Ive been very happy with the music series)...How do you rank the 3.3s versues the new t5,t6 ? ..also whats the best center channel with the t series and how does it compare to the ac-2 ?(this is VERY important to me)....Do you have a personal opinion as to which direction you,d go with my setup in a small ht room for both ht and music 50/50..Just curious

From reading your previous statements I guess you would put the 2.9s below the t5s...the retail on the t5s is 2500.00 Im assuming
post #70 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by boudoir
I don't know where NHT is going but to me it does't sound as good as you are saying, and romancing us.

I see the Chinese made Evolution series as a step down from the now discontinued US made VT series, and the VT series itself as a step down from the audio series, also discontinued. Cheap home theater speakers, that's what NHT is building today.
Maybe if you did a little less looking and a little more listening you'd "see" it differently:) .

As someone who has owned B&W's (803s) and many, many other high end speakers over the years (my average for keeping a setup is one year as I love to "audition" new stuff) and who has an intimate knowledge of live acoustic music (I regularly attend the BSO concerts in Symphony Hall) to these ears NHT is building anything but cheap home theater speakers. But your ears may be calibrated differently than mine.
post #71 of 364
Thread Starter 
What's up with this Chinese bashing?

If memory serves, it was the same thing with anything made in Japan, until the American brands simply couldn't compete with the Japanese brands in either price or performance.

I'll hand it to you, manufacturing in China is not as refined as it is done here (if there is any left here in the States), but given the right training, the right parts, Chinese made goods, including speakers, can be just as high performance as products made elsewhere.

And last time I checked, the Rockets are also made in China.
post #72 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by tonygeno
Maybe if you did a little less looking and a little more listening you'd "see" it differently:) .
For Christ sake I have five 3.3s, and you call that looking:rolleyes:
post #73 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by boudoir
I don't know where NHT is going but to me it does't sound as good as you are saying, and romancing us.

I see the Chinese made Evolution series as a step down from the now discontinued US made VT series, and the VT series itself as a step down from the audio series, also discontinued. Cheap home theater speakers, that's what NHT is building today.
Interesting. Of course, subjectivity applies, but the Evolution is a substantial leap above the HT and music series. Actually, the VT3s were a substantial leap over the 3.3s. Bigger soundstage, more detail, more "open" and dynamic. Michael Framer did a nice blow by blow on the differences. The T6s absolutely are an improvement over the VT3s since I have a waiting list as I sell off my customers VT3s (anybody need any? Tough sell with the Evos out!). Anytime you can improve on a $6300 speaker and drop the price to $4000 by making it in China, you'll have skeptics. And, heck, when the Nautilus series came out, a lot of our B&W clientele were complaining to us about B&W going for look over performance and how they were too bright and didn't sound as good as the old B&Ws, etc. Interestingly, B&W clientele would constantly subtly or overtly deride the "NHT sound" as too this or too that. Now they just sit there in awe and say "wow, these are as good as my B&W Nautilus _____". And I've traded in up to N803s and Matrix 800s for them.

So, you can call them cheap HT speakers if you wish, just as Porsche owners probably called the Miata a cheap Japanese toy. But they're a huge leap above ALL of the old NHTs and ALL of the B&W Matrix series and, at least equal to most, if not all of the B&W Nautilus series for a lot less money. Not that you should ditch the N802s for T6s, but since the T6s have such a transparent midrange, I'm wondering if you don't like a little extra flavor from your speakers than NHT now puts in. The T6s have about 30% less distortion and frequency inaccuracy as compared to the 3.3 and throw a much bigger soundstage. I'd say that is progress. And NHT is definitely going in the right direction. I know some of what is on the drawing board. You haven't seen anything yet.
post #74 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by psujohny
John,

After reading your comments about the t5,t6 ect (which I know nothing about as Ive been very happy with the music series)...How do you rank the 3.3s versues the new t5,t6 ? ..also whats the best center channel with the t series and how does it compare to the ac-2 ?(this is VERY important to me)....Do you have a personal opinion as to which direction you,d go with my setup in a small ht room for both ht and music 50/50..Just curious

From reading your previous statements I guess you would put the 2.9s below the t5s...the retail on the t5s is 2500.00 Im assuming
Hi John,
The T5 is the new improved 2.9. I was wading in 2.9s for awhile when they came out as customers jumped to them. Many of these people lusted after 3.3s but didn't go for them because of the $2000 difference or the size difference. The midrange is smoother and more detailed AND more "musical" with a bigger soundstage and the bass is more powerful, but more adjustable which is important in small rooms. I've been able to make them sound great in every room I've put them in. The AC-2 goes a bit deeper in the bass, but the M5 sounds better for all the reasons the T5s improve upon the 2.9s. There's less coloration and more detail coming out of them. If you're thinking of 3.3s, why not go listen to them? It may be just as affordable (or at least close) and a lot more rewarding.
post #75 of 364
Thanks John,

I know you probably already listed the retail prices but was wondering if a discount can be had on the t5, m5 ?...and what exactly the retail prices are ...bass is more adjustable on the t-5 ?..maybe I need to re-read this entire thread but its getting very long

oh, also like to say... darn you John !...I shoulda never read this thread!...ignorance IS bliss..oh well
post #76 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
... Michael Framer did a nice blow by blow on the differences...
In his review of the 3.3s ten years ago when he was still working for TAS, Mickey Fremer did not have the right amps for those speakers. He did not have the right room either for the bass to do anything spectacular, like with Tom Norton and Corey Greenberg of Stereophile. I don't think Mickey could compare the VT series to the 3.3s accurately. To me the 3.3s are the better speakers. The factory tune up and matching was extensive on the 3.3s. It shows against both the 2.9s and the VT series.
post #77 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by boudoir
For Christ sake I have five 3.3s, and you call that looking:rolleyes:
In a previous post you said:

Quote:
I see the Chinese made Evolution series as a step down from the now discontinued US made VT series, and the VT series itself as a step down from the audio series, also discontinued. Cheap home theater speakers, that's what NHT is building today.
Based on this, it is unclear to me whether you'd actually heard the Evos. According to the folks at NHT (many of the old crew, I might add), the Evos are superior to anything they've ever built. I've heard them, and can say that your characterization of them as Cheap home theater speakers is wrong. And Home Theater Mag, S&V, SGHT, Secrets and Soundstage seem to agree.
post #78 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by psujohny
Thanks John,

I know you probably already listed the retail prices but was wondering if a discount can be had on the t5, m5 ?...and what exactly the retail prices are ...bass is more adjustable on the t-5 ?..maybe I need to re-read this entire thread but its getting very long

oh, also like to say... darn you John !...I shoulda never read this thread!...ignorance IS bliss..oh well
The Evo series is not supposed to be offered over the net. If you do a search on Yahoo shopping or some other shopping service, you will only come up with gray market goods. I recently bought a demo set from a dealer that was unloading the line because of restrictions re selling over the net.
post #79 of 364
Thanks

The retail on the m-5 center is 450.00 (just called my local dealer) which is half of what the ac-2 is...In my dealers opinion the t-5s are better then the 2.9s but he also said that the ac-2 was a little better speaker then the m-5 center ...so then I aksed if the ac-2 would match the t-5s and he said it would...any opinions as to which is best center channel and if you could use the ac-2 with the t-5s ? or would thier be timber problems (also vs2.4s in the rear, would their be timber match problems ?)..
post #80 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by boudoir
In his review of the 3.3s ten years ago when he was still working for TAS, Mickey Fremer did not have the right amps for those speakers. He did not have the right room either for the bass to do anything spectacular, like with Tom Norton and Corey Greenberg of Stereophile. I don't think Mickey could compare the VT series to the 3.3s accurately. To me the 3.3s are the better speakers. The factory tune up and matching was extensive on the 3.3s. It shows against both the 2.9s and the VT series.
Do you want to do 9 channel? I've got two pairs of 3.3s traded in for T6s that I haven't been able to sell for 9 months and they're sitting right next to T5s for easy comparison. The 3.3s have NAD Silver Series electronics with all Nordost Blue Heavens and the T5s have the basic NAD package with entry level Nordost. Given that the price is right, $1500, if your assertion is correct, why have I sold 20 some pairs of T5s and no used 3.3s for $700 less? Oh, yes, probably the "wrong amp". Why is it that people always blame the electronics? At least the 3.3s actually DO need a good amp unlike other speakers that just sound wrong no matter how much money you throw at them :-)
post #81 of 364
I listened extensively to VR3s (top portion of VT3s) a couple of times. They sound very nice, but to my ears were a little too bright/forward in the upper midrange. I would still prefer the 2.9/3.3 over the VR3s (and therefore VT3s). While 3.3s have a very small sweet spot, when you do sit in it, the 3.3s can produce a very deep and defined soundstage with near flat response down to ~ 26hz, with very low distortion at extreme decibels. Opinions will vary.

I have listened to M5s on two occasions, including last night. The subs were not working. So I just listened to the M5s driven by a Denon 5803 in Pure Direct Mode. The sonics were nice and pleasant, with a rich sound. With the 12inch sub active, I think this would be one fantastic tower. JohnT, you can always find these used :)

Many of the highend centers (Aerial CC3/CC5, Revel Voice) have 3-way designs with a driver array specifically for horizontal placement & center channel dispersion, and not vertical use (as regular mains or rears). The AC2 and VC3 also have this design. I am not sure if the M5/M6, which don't have this driver array, would perform as well, from a dispersion perspective. Of course, the new drivers should provide other sonic improvements.

JohnA,

I think budoir's comment was 3.3s against the VT3s, not the Evolution series.
post #82 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by psujohny
Thanks

The retail on the m-5 center is 450.00 (just called my local dealer) which is half of what the ac-2 is...In my dealers opinion the t-5s are better then the 2.9s but he also said that the ac-2 was a little better speaker then the m-5 center ...so then I aksed if the ac-2 would match the t-5s and he said it would...any opinions as to which is best center channel and if you could use the ac-2 with the t-5s ? or would thier be timber problems (also vs2.4s in the rear, would their be timber match problems ?)..
The dealer must be counting the AC2s deeper bass as being the "little better". If the T5 is better than the 2.9s, the M5 by extension, is better than the AC2, at least from 66Hz and up. Always match. Trust me, the M5 is better than the AC2. Better drivers, better crossover, better sound. And I LIKE the AC2! I also tell people who have the 2.9s to buy the AC2 over the m5 or M6 even though they're better because the AC2 MATCHES. And M5s are an even bigger jump over the VS2.4s. Who's selling those out there? Paul and Tony made a B&W conversion a few years back, but I didn't think anyone in State College would ever get around to picking up NHT.
post #83 of 364
john, i have questions setup and price of T5's for u.

the tweeter on T5 is about 34" height which is below ear level at sitting position. do u have to tilt up them or put them on a concrete block (stand) for proper imaging? at $2500 per pair, do they come with the crossovers and amps as a complete package? thanks!
post #84 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
I listened extensively to VR3s (top portion of VT3s) a couple of times. They sound very nice, but to my ears were a little too bright/forward in the upper midrange.

Many of the highend centers (Aerial CC3/CC5, Revel Voice) have 3-way designs with a driver array specifically for horizontal placement & center channel dispersion, and not vertical use (as regular mains or rears). The AC2 and VC3 also have this design. I am not sure if the M5/M6, which don't have this driver array, would perform as well, from a dispersion perspective. Of course, the new drivers should provide other sonic improvements.

JohnA,

I think budoir's comment was 3.3s against the VT3s, not the Evolution series.
The VT3s are a little brighter than 3.3s, but are also designed to fill a bigger room. But they are more detailed and have a bigger soundstage! Carefull matching of the electronics and speaker cables quell the brightness in the rooms it exists. B&K, CJ, etc are good matches for the VT3s. The M6s are smoother and, because of more limited dispersion, are less likely to come off as bright in a room even though they sound very much like the VR3s in many ways, they are less fatiguing and richer. M5s are a little warmer still for closer seating and in smaller rooms.

The M5/M6 is designed perfectly for center use! They use the same driver configuration as other high-end centers, BUT, phase align the tweeter/mid to aim the sound down (if sitting on a big screen) or up if sitting below a TV or screen. I've seen many $1000-$2000 center speakers sound like crap because they're sitting at 5 or 6' off the ground. The M5/M6 is perfectly designed to deal with this problem. It actually works and minimizes floor/ceiling reflections, depending on orientation. An extraordariliy clever design! It has nearly ideal lateral dispersion and uniformity with the plus of aiming the sound towards you, not at your knees or over your head. When on their side, they create a wide sweet spot, 3 or 4 people wide and minimize wall reflections. I can't believe how clever these guys are sometimes.

I think Boudoir was pretty clear that he believes all new NHT is just cheap HT stuff WORSE than the VT series. As long as he refrains from listening to them, it's an easy position to hold.
post #85 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by Billie
john, i have questions setup and price of T5's for u.

the tweeter on T5 is about 34" height which is below ear level at sitting position. do u have to tilt up them or put them on a concrete block (stand) for proper imaging? at $2500 per pair, do they come with the crossovers and amps as a complete package? thanks!
You can raise the front spikes to aim them up if necessary. I'm short, so they're exactly on axis with my ear as is. Imaging is best on axis. Raising the spike should do it. If not, you can take the rear spikes off. Of course, T6s have the tweeter 3" or 4" higher :-)

$2500 includes the $350 crossover and $400 sub amp. What a deal, no? Especially since my 2.9 owners always want to biamp the 2.9s. To which I say "oh, just trade them in already!" :-)
post #86 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
Do you want to do 9 channel? I've got two pairs of 3.3s traded in for T6s that I haven't been able to sell for 9 months and they're sitting right next to T5s for easy comparison. The 3.3s have NAD Silver Series electronics with all Nordost Blue Heavens and the T5s have the basic NAD package with entry level Nordost. Given that the price is right, $1500, if your assertion is correct, why have I sold 20 some pairs of T5s and no used 3.3s for $700 less? Oh, yes, probably the "wrong amp". Why is it that people always blame the electronics? At least the 3.3s actually DO need a good amp unlike other speakers that just sound wrong no matter how much money you throw at them :-)
Tell you why you sell more lifestyled T5s than used 3.3s: you sell those T5s to hometheaterphiles, not music lovers. In hometheater applications good or bad speakers don't make any difference; one can't tell the difference. It is as simple as that. A fart is a fart. A gun shot is a gun shot. How accurate do they have to be??
post #87 of 364
Could a person use the m5/m6s with two nht sw2 subs along with the outlaw icbm crossover ?..it seems like it wouldnt be a problem as the icbm has stereo controls etc..plus the nht sw2 subs are nhts...

If I were to sell my 2.9s and ac-2...replace it with m5/m6s and use my two nht sw2 subs with the m5/6s(crossed over with icbm) with m5/6 sitting on top of the subs...for my l/r and then get a m5/6 for the center channel, would this work or do you HAVE to have the matching evo subs/amps/crossovers ?
post #88 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by boudoir
Tell you why you sell more lifestyled T5s than used 3.3s: you sell those T5s to hometheaterphiles, not music lovers. In hometheater applications good or bad speakers don't make any difference; one can't tell the difference. It is as simple as that. A fart is a fart. A gun shot is a gun shot. How accurate do they have to be??
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! Sounds like you've been attending the "B&W School for the Elite" for the last several years :-) Why not come down here, I'll gather up all my customers and you can tell them that they're not music lovers and you can see how long you last in that environment. Only 10% at best even ask to hear a movie on them. They listen to music and make the decision solely on that. The assume good performance on theater and demand it on music.

From the "good or bass speakers don't make any difference" comment, I'll assume you've never heard a movie on a Meridian or Genesis system.

I also find it ironic that you're using your most accurate speakers in the theater system and listen to music on the less accurate ones. Well "how accurate do they have to be" for music anyway? :cool:
post #89 of 364
boudoir,

Now hold on a second, there chief, I've been refraining from jumping into this fray for a couple of days now, but that last comment about the T5's being for home theater instead of music lovers really just put a burr under my saddle. I auditioned a good 15+ sets of speakers in my price range, and compared them on them most part on 2 channel stereo. I listened to your precious B&W's (CDM 7NT's), and, yes, they did sound good, and I give credit where credit is due, the B&W's are good speakers. But, I listen to a wide range of music, and the T5's handled everything I threw at them, and (I emphasize) TO ME sounded cleaner and better than the B&W's. Yes, I do consider myself a music lover, with over 400 cd's and couting. Nothing personal here, guy, that's just what I chose. You need a stiff drink, to calm down a little. How can you go around bashing other speakers when not even giving them a fair handshake. I'm relatively new to this forum, and I can't believe some of the personal attacks people carry out in this thing.

Would it hurt you to just give credit where credit is due? Yes, I will give credit to B&W speakers, they make a great sounding, quality product, along with a laundry list of other manufacturers out there. BUT, everybody has their own listening preferences. If I listed to mostly classical music, my acceptance criteria would've been completely different. Or, if just listening to jazz, or for strictly home theater, etc. I picked the NHT's because they served my music needs first and foremost, and did a great job with Home Theater as well. Hey, to each their own. Words to live by...
post #90 of 364
Quote:
Originally posted by psujohny
Could a person use the m5/m6s with two nht sw2 subs along with the outlaw icbm crossover ?..it seems like it wouldnt be a problem as the icbm has stereo controls etc..plus the nht sw2 subs are nhts...

If I were to sell my 2.9s and ac-2...replace it with m5/m6s and use my two nht sw2 subs with the m5/6s(crossed over with icbm) with m5/6 sitting on top of the subs...for my l/r and then get a m5/6 for the center channel, would this work or do you HAVE to have the matching evo subs/amps/crossovers ?
Absolutely. That's the great thing about the modularity of the system. The subs are an amazing add-on, but an optional one. In fact, it's hard to say what's the best part of the system, but going with the M5s or M6s is usually the easiest way into the system and you can choose one of several subs later, including the models that turn the M5s or M6s into towers. The only necessary thing is that the subs need to be used with the X1 crossover as it has the proper EQ curve for the sub.
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